Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #61
    A very well thought out concept, easily one of the best ones put forth in terms of presentation. I like it a lot and would likely play one myself. I do think though that with the addition of DK and DH, it would probably make for too many doom and gloom types of classes. That would be the only downside here IMO. This is very well done, good job
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    this section is still WIP, if you know of an NPC that has potential to join the cult feel free to mention them.
    Interesting!

    I may have missed it, but I saw no mention of Pai Stormbringer or Ul'haik Hadanot. They're from the '04 RPG booklet, but there's no reason they can't be repurposed for your idea.

  3. #63
    Deleted
    I always get kinda skeptical and these kind of threads are kinda cringy to me IMO. But this could work.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post

    Which brings me to my fourth point: There's no way an Occultist is a hero class, much less one that starts higher than Death Knights do. Death Knights are supposed to be naturally gifted with necromancy by virtue of it being infused into their life force.
    Because of all the ways that some races already employ them, it makes sense that they would be allowed to wander under supervision if Warlocks and Death Knights can.
    ok, now that I have more brainpower, let's get to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    It's... interesting, but I have a few issues with it.

    First off, the specs themselves do very little to differentiate between the capabilities of the Necromancer ("Occultist") and a Death Knight. Unholy DKs are capable of summoning a wide variety of corporeal undead (including abominations and skeletons), Blood DKs naturally have the vampiric theme, and the ability to summon incorporeal undead or transform into an undead has been bounced around the class several times since Wrath. In terms of lore, it recycles the "former champions of the Lich King" plotline...

    Paladins wield the Light exclusively as both Sword and Shield, while Priests attempt to balance spirituality in all of its forms, including the Void. Warlocks lost abilities to the Demon Hunters because the devs didn't expect Demon Hunters to ever coexist; the vast differences between them are highlighted by Tehd and Marius, where Tehd works to control demons as Marius works to destroy them.
    Death Knights, however, have been described as some of the most powerful necromancers among the Old Horde and the Scourge since the Warcraft games.
    I agree with you on your point regarding the similarities of unholy death knights and necromancers. I think for this idea to become viable blizzard needs to tweak some of unholy death knights' gimmick abilities such as control undeath and raise abomination, they can keep their ghoul and mass reanimation though. the theme of the necromancer is to defeat their enemies by mostly utilizing their mastery of undead control while death knights primarily use a combination of their melee fighting skills and close combat spells, and utilize the powers of necromancy as a secondary skill. I think Death Knight's capabilities of summoning various undead units stems from Blizzard's desire to fill the void of a necromancer class, similar to how Warlocks could metamorphosize into a demon form in the absence of demon hunters as a separate class. I can change the necromancer to limit the role of plague in their ability list and rewrite their summoning abilities to make them more dependable on their minions for damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Second, the playstyles tend to recycle a lot of existing class mechanics without adding much originality beyond resources. Necromancy uses raising the dead with manipulation of diseases as filler? Unholy DK. Blood Magic uses personal health as a resource, and damage enemies in order to restore allies? Discipline Priests and Affliction Warlocks.
    Unholy DK is still a melee fighter, while a Necromancer is a ranged spellcaster. Unholy DK's main source of damage is still the melee abilities that they cast, necromancer's primary source of damage is their minions and then their bone spells, with plague playing as a filler. I can do a little bit of tweaking to improve and polish the idea though.

    I do not agree with blood magic being similar to discipline priests. maybe in my first re-iteration of the spec I did have something like that in mind but I did change the spec to be a buffer/healer spec. I need to re-read the blood magic section to see if i forgot to edit the mechanics section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Third, the lore. Holy cow, the lore is so far off. Every race would kill a Scourge emissary as quickly as Tyrande; the only exception might be Sylvanas choosing to capture one alive, but never allowing one to walk into her throne room without bindings, chains and a gag. The Blood Elves would never "welcome the Scourge emissary with curiosity" - their homeland and people were forever ruined by the Scourge, and they understand full-well the Scourge's capabilities. The Draenei wouldn't "volunteer upon hearing the Lich King's call"; if you hear the Lich King's call, you're being manipulated, there's no "volunteering" about it.

    I feel like the lore of this misses some opportunities, instead simply stating that all of the races are tied to the Cult of the Damned. Just look at Azeroth's classes: the Tauren do not knowingly follow the Light, and created the Sunwalkers independently. The Blood Elves originally channeled the Light not through worship, but through draining the Naaru. Gilneas employed "Harvest Witches" who practiced crude druidic magic.

    In this case: The Draenei naturally have some powers leaning toward the Spectromancy tree through the practices of the Speakers for the Dead and Soulbinders of Auchindoun. The High Elves have been wielding Blood Magic independently for years, even before they became Blood Elves. The Forsaken would willingly accept the Necromantic teachings of Helcular and the Val'kyr in order to continue the existence of their people. Trolls have Spiritbinders amongst the ranks of their priests, and Blood Mages amongst some of their tribes. Kasim Sharim is a gnomish Blood Mage. The Defias employ Human Blood Mages while some Orc clans employed similar classes for spiritual purposes - and sure, maybe some Humans would be passing around the teachings of Kel'thuzad years later, much as Orcs continue to pass around the teachings of Gul'dan and Ner'zhul to their Warlocks.
    they would've done the same to a death knight emissary, meaning that they would've gutted the death knight player before they had a chance to talk to Varian Wrynn. but they didn't, emissaries are diplomats and most of the time they're supposed to be greeted with respect or at least some degree of tolerance...well...most of the time.

    All of the classes however are now gathered around one class-specific faction or organization.

    Paladins = Silver Hand
    Rogues = The Uncrowned
    Druids = Cenarion Circle (?)
    Demon Hunters = The Illidari
    etc etc

    I could've written the Occultists as a random bunch of people just practicing necromancy and other dark arts but I had several reasons for not doing so. one: I wanted to have a blood magic spec, specifically, the type of magic the San'Layn practice. two: I wanted them to belong to a faction recognizable by the player base. three: Judging by how Blizzard is trying to get people into the expansion quickly (look at the starting lvl of demon hunters for example) I wanted them to start the game in a similar fashion, so that's why I avoided throwing them in basic 1-10 starting zones.

    It would've been a huge miss to create an Occultist class and then not include the most important and well-known cult in the warcraft universe that is the cult of the damned as it gives your class an identity. I thought about various other methods of doing so, such as a random bunch of witches serving dark and malicious demigods (like Aviana, as Harpies in Legion still seem to be the same vicious c***s that we encountered before.) that utilize curses and hexes, but in the end the idea of the cult of the damned was too strong and it seemed more feasible that the other ideas that I had.

    Perhaps I should rewrite and rephrase the eligible class section. The draenei didn't "volunteer" as in going to accept the Lich King's call with open arms. they're infact the followers of Exarch Maladaar from Outland, Most of them are coming from Auchidoun (after they fail to regain their lost knowledge) hoping that the cult of the damned can teach them what they've lost in the millenia, not because Maladaar and other Draenei lack the knowledge, but because of Lich King's connection with the shadowlands and the undeath.

    Blood Elves send volunteers to learn about blood magic (Elven blood mages do not utilize blood magic, they're a cross between fire mages and warlocks imo, look at kael'thas sunstrider for instance. I think Blizzard's initial take on a "blood mage" was just a fire mage of the blood elf faction, hence the term "blood mage") and to train individuals who can later return to Quel'Thalas and help them cleanse the land from the plague and the dark curses that the Scourge brought upon them. Same deal with Humans as they are looking for a way to cleanse Duskwood. Trolls convinced the Orcs to send volunteers there to learn more about the shadowlands (shadow hunters have a crude connection with the realm of spirits) and they are interested in knowing more about the voodoo. The Orcs themselves had knowledge of bloodmancy, more specifically, Killrog and his Bleeding Hollow Clan, which was among the inspirations for me to make the specialization as a buffer/healer class.

    Now Kasim Sharim, imo, is the first instance of an actual blood mage (except the san'layn) in the game. as his quest involved blood magic: you had to find and assemble the body of a fallen demon hunter and then use a ritual to bring him back to life, that is not something an elven blood mage can do. that's why, in order to reduce confusion, I tend to use the term "bloodmancer" to differentiate between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Fifth, it crams specialties like Fleshcrafting and Blightcalling into Necromancy... but then leaves Spectromancy separate. What's up with that?
    each of the specs point out to one aspect of what makes a living creature. Necromancy deals with the body itself: the bones, the muscles, the flesh in general. A Necromancer can only reanimate the body, they cannot bring the soul of the deceased back. Blood Magic deals with the "essence" of life, which is blood. and Spectromancer deals with the spirit of the body and hence their connection with the shadowlands. and blightcalling is given to all specs, with each spec having a different version of blightcalling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Sixth, the artifacts. A problem with most of the artifacts in Legion is that they have no lore basis - but the ones that do tend to have the most attachment from players, such as Ashbringer and Doomhammer. If I were to create an artifact for an Occultist, I'd pick weapons tied to established characters, such as Kel'thuzad, the Bleeding Hollow or Shadowmoon clans, Mogu flesh-shapers, or Bwonsamdi.
    that is an excellent point. I'll change the artifacts once I do some research into different factions that employed magic similar to Occultist magic, especially the Mogu.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Interesting!

    I may have missed it, but I saw no mention of Pai Stormbringer or Ul'haik Hadanot. They're from the '04 RPG booklet, but there's no reason they can't be repurposed for your idea.
    I did read about Pai Stormbringer, when i was coming up with NPC ideas but I decided to not include anyone named "Pai" in a cult that deals with dark arts. I used mostly the NPCs that were mentioned in game as there seems to be a stigma sorrounding using materials from the RPG books. But Ul'Haik Hadanot sounds like a decent candidate, will probably list him alongside Necromancer Diesalven and my next batch of planned NPCs.
    Last edited by Gamevizier; 2016-12-04 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #65
    The next class will either be Dark Ranger or Warden, there are plenty of hints in this expansion that they could do either.

  6. #66
    problem with this class is it overlaps with more than 1 class.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  7. #67
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    The next class will either be Dark Ranger or Warden, there are plenty of hints in this expansion that they could do either.
    I'm interested to see how a Warden can be introduced into the game, not joking. but so far they don't have enough potential, first of all they're limited to Night Elves only (and maybe Blood Elves, Spell Breakers can be changed to be the blood elven version of Wardens) so that still gives us another class that is specifically limited to Night Elves and Blood Elves.

    Dark Rangers are just undead rangers, the only non-elf dark ranger is Nathanos Blightcaller. but nonetheless, I've not seen a non-undead dark ranger in the game.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    I'm interested to see how a Warden can be introduced into the game, not joking. but so far they don't have enough potential, first of all they're limited to Night Elves only (and maybe Blood Elves, Spell Breakers can be changed to be the blood elven version of Wardens) so that still gives us another class that is specifically limited to Night Elves and Blood Elves.

    Dark Rangers are just undead rangers, the only non-elf dark ranger is Nathanos Blightcaller. but nonetheless, I've not seen a non-undead dark ranger in the game.
    Death Knights are all undead FYI regardless of race, also Nathanos is training new ones that are all different undead races it seems not just blood elves.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Death Knights are all undead FYI regardless of race, also Nathanos is training new ones that are all different undead races it seems not just blood elves.
    but Death Knights do make sense because they were killed by the Scourge which was formerly the most powerful faction after Horde and Alliance and had connections and agents everywhere meaning that they had access to an abundance of corpses and fallen heroes(imo it was actually the most powerful faction on azeroth prior to WotLK). Sylvanas on the other hand does not have that much resources and even if she had them, why would she make dark rangers that would eventually break off from the forsaken and join the alliance? they are still mostly elves, and they are all undead.

    The Lich King can resurrect fallen elven rangers (high elves and blood elves) as dark rangers but then, we still end up with an elf-exclusive race that way. Either way, I'm not saying it's not possible, but it needs a lot of work to develop a certain theme and story for dark rangers to make them playable for both factions and have them differ from just an undead hunter.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    but Death Knights do make sense because they were killed by the Scourge which was formerly the most powerful faction after Horde and Alliance and had connections and agents everywhere meaning that they had access to an abundance of corpses and fallen heroes(imo it was actually the most powerful faction on azeroth prior to WotLK). Sylvanas on the other hand does not have that much resources and even if she had them, why would she make dark rangers that would eventually break off from the forsaken and join the alliance? they are still mostly elves, and they are all undead.

    The Lich King can resurrect fallen elven rangers (high elves and blood elves) as dark rangers but then, we still end up with an elf-exclusive race that way. Either way, I'm not saying it's not possible, but it needs a lot of work to develop a certain theme and story for dark rangers to make them playable for both factions and have them differ from just an undead hunter.
    I have a feeling Sylvanas and or Nathanos will be leaving the horde to train them if it happens or it will be like a secret force she had been making in the past similar to the DK area.
    Last edited by Unholyground; 2016-12-04 at 08:31 PM.

  11. #71
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I have a feeling Sylvanas and or Nathanos will be leaving the horde to train them if it happens or it will be like a secret force she had been making in the pas similar to the DK area.
    she can join Bolvar and the Scourge now that Arthas is dead...I mean...Bolvar is probably feeling Lonely...and cold.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    she can join Bolvar and the Scourge now that Arthas is dead...I mean...Bolvar is probably feeling Lonely...and cold.
    The fact remains Dark Rangers would be sweet lol. Thy have life siphoning, stealth, daggers, ranged weapons. pretty sick imo.

  13. #73
    Dreadlord Leviatharan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Atop the Golden Throne, wondering how it was easier to get up than back down.
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    -snip-
    Where Warlocks were once attempting to "fill the Demon Hunter void", they still proved they had distinctive abilities they could pull out that didn't involve turning into a demon; the Unholy DK cannot exist independently of minion-summoning because that's been a core aspect of the class since WC2.

    The player death knight nearly was slain on-sight when entering Stormwind Keep/Grommash Hold - the only thing that kept them alive was a letter from Tirion Fordring, and even then they had a march of shame through the city. Same case with the demon hunters getting a cold reception until they proved their worth by thwarting an ambush, and the faction leaders still note that they'll be slaughtered if they try anything funny; at least the demon hunters are notorious for their "We've sacrificed everything for Azeroth" shtick.
    A Cult of the Damned emissary would be dead within seconds without special circumstances, because the only variants of the Cult of the Damned that we've met have been the power-hungry zealots of a mad lich. "Wait, but we can make your forces stronger -" alone is exactly the deal the Horde and Alliance have heard many times before from the Legion, and rejected with a coup de grace.

    All of the classes gather around one organization NOW; each race has their own reason for being there, however. The Silver Hand Order Hall has emissaries from the Argent Dawn/Crusade, Blood Knights, Sunwalkers, and Vindicators. The Unseen Path Order Hall has emissaries from the Farstriders, Dark Rangers, Sentinels and Silver Covenant. The Uncrowned Order Hall has emissaries from Ravenholdt, SI:7, Shattered Hand, Bloodsail Buccaneers, Shado-Pan... with the notable exceptions of Hero Classes, Order Halls really are just random bunches of people practicing the same craft, simply comparing notes.
    There's nothing to say the Cult of the Damned couldn't be the post-100 Class Order, but each race has their own version of the Occultist who functions separately from any cult.
    Last edited by Leviatharan; 2016-12-04 at 08:40 PM.
    Leviatharan - Level 120 Blood Elf Unholy Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Conflux> - Drak'Tharon US

    Now author of Morbid Musings, a blog dedicated to DK theorycraft. Ish.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Where Warlocks were once attempting to "fill the Demon Hunter void", they still proved they had distinctive abilities they could pull out that didn't involve turning into a demon; the Unholy DK cannot exist independently of minion-summoning because that's been a core aspect of the class since WC2.

    The player death knight nearly was slain on-sight when entering Stormwind Keep/Grommash Hold - the only thing that kept them alive was a letter from Tirion Fordring, and even then they had a march of shame through the city. Same case with the demon hunters getting a cold reception until they proved their worth by thwarting an ambush, and the faction leaders still note that they'll be slaughtered if they try anything funny; at least the demon hunters are notorious for their "We've sacrificed everything for Azeroth" shtick.
    A Cult of the Damned emissary would be dead within seconds without special circumstances, because the only variants of the Cult of the Damned that we've met have been the power-hungry zealots of a mad lich. "Wait, but we can make your forces stronger -" alone is exactly the deal the Horde and Alliance have heard many times before from the Legion, and rejected with a coup de grace.

    All of the classes gather around one organization NOW; each race has their own reason for being there, however. The Silver Hand Order Hall has emissaries from the Argent Dawn/Crusade, Blood Knights, Sunwalkers, and Vindicators. The Unseen Path Order Hall has emissaries from the Farstriders, Dark Rangers, Sentinels and Silver Covenant. The Uncrowned Order Hall has emissaries from Ravenholdt, SI:7, Shattered Hand, Bloodsail Buccaneers, Shado-Pan... with the notable exceptions of Hero Classes, Order Halls really are just random bunches of people practicing the same craft, simply comparing notes.
    There's nothing to say the Cult of the Damned couldn't be the post-100 Class Order, but each race has their own version of the Occultist who functions separately from any cult.
    But they do have enough credentials, the death knights joined the factions when scourge was the notorious boogeyman of azeroth, but they are now a shadow of their former selves. Additionally they have now become an instrumental part of fighting the burning lrgion, so the infamy sorrounding the death kniws is at least reduced.

    The emissaries carry an important message, if tirion's endorsement saved the death knight player, why shouldn't bolvars' endorsement carry the same weight? Not only that, but the fact that Bolvar, the veteran of the argebt crusade's invasion of northrend, is now keeping the scourge contained, should be at least interesting enough to grant an emissary an audience with the leaders of that city.

  15. #75
    Dreadlord Leviatharan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Atop the Golden Throne, wondering how it was easier to get up than back down.
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    The emissaries carry an important message, if tirion's endorsement saved the death knight player, why shouldn't bolvars' endorsement carry the same weight?
    Because as far as the rest of the world is concerned - except for the Ebon Blade - Bolvar is supposed to be dead, per his final request to Tirion (who is also dead).
    And as far as the Ebon Blade is concerned, they don't trust the new Lich King, but pissing him off would mean a new Scourge.
    Leviatharan - Level 120 Blood Elf Unholy Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Conflux> - Drak'Tharon US

    Now author of Morbid Musings, a blog dedicated to DK theorycraft. Ish.

  16. #76
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Because as far as the rest of the world is concerned - except for the Ebon Blade - Bolvar is supposed to be dead, per his final request to Tirion (who is also dead).
    And as far as the Ebon Blade is concerned, they don't trust the new Lich King, but pissing him off would mean a new Scourge.
    Which doesn't make much sense (but then again the whole WotLK ending was just a cheap pirates of the carribean -the dutchman must always have a captain!- ripoff imo). Bolvar has awakened and with him the scourge will become active once again. sooner or later the leaders will realize that there's another lich king on the throne and unless they're sure that this new lich king is on their side they'll always look at the scourge as a dangerous threat. so it's better if Bolvar identifies himself atleast as the person in charge so that the leaders at least know about who is leading the undead armies in Northrend. The only leader that knows about the lich king (besides Tirion) is Sylvanas. And as for the Ebon Blade, The Scourge is always there under Bolvar's control whether or not he's pissed. That was the reason he chose to become the new lich king in the first place: to keep the scourge under his control.

    the reason that the death knights were introduced as undead fighters who were raised against their will was to give them a purpose in taking part in the crusade against the lich king and the scourge which was at that time being controlled by Arthas and was working to rapidly expand it's numbers beyond dangerous levels. they were the villains, and now they can be something else because Bolvar is controlling them.

  17. #77
    Dreadlord Leviatharan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Atop the Golden Throne, wondering how it was easier to get up than back down.
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    Which doesn't make much sense (but then again the whole WotLK ending was just a cheap pirates of the carribean -the dutchman must always have a captain!- ripoff imo). Bolvar has awakened and with him the scourge will become active once again. sooner or later the leaders will realize that there's another lich king on the throne and unless they're sure that this new lich king is on their side they'll always look at the scourge as a dangerous threat. so it's better if Bolvar identifies himself atleast as the person in charge so that the leaders at least know about who is leading the undead armies in Northrend. The only leader that knows about the lich king (besides Tirion) is Sylvanas. And as for the Ebon Blade, The Scourge is always there under Bolvar's control whether or not he's pissed. That was the reason he chose to become the new lich king in the first place: to keep the scourge under his control.
    Far as I can tell, the "Dutchman must always have a captain" plot for the Scourge is actually caused by the fact that Ner'zhul remains an active player inside the Helm of Dominion (while the Arthas book claims that the Prince "killed" Ner'zhul's spirit, all evidence in-game points to the contrary, with the Lich King speaking as Ner'zhul within the Shadowlands during a Dragonblight quest, and with Ner'zhul's spirit lingering behind during the Frost Death Knight artifact quest). The idea with the helmet is that without a host to mentally battle the spirit(s?) trapped within the helmet, Ner'zhul would use it to take complete control of the Scourge and turn it upon the world.

    What I meant by "a new Scourge" was that with Bolvar wearing the helmet, the undead under the Lich King's control are primarily docile, scattered clumps of zombies who are easily dealt with and only remain due to sheer numbers, only attacking on sight like an animal would; under Arthas or Ner'zhul, they would reorganize by the Lich King's will, seek out victims and run rampant like before (and as implied by the Icecrown dungeons, Arthas was actually holding the full force of the Scourge back, if only because of his master plan to bait heroes into fighting him).
    Leviatharan - Level 120 Blood Elf Unholy Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Conflux> - Drak'Tharon US

    Now author of Morbid Musings, a blog dedicated to DK theorycraft. Ish.

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    Far as I can tell, the "Dutchman must always have a captain" plot for the Scourge is actually caused by the fact that Ner'zhul remains an active player inside the Helm of Dominion (while the Arthas book claims that the Prince "killed" Ner'zhul's spirit, all evidence in-game points to the contrary, with the Lich King speaking as Ner'zhul within the Shadowlands during a Dragonblight quest, and with Ner'zhul's spirit lingering behind during the Frost Death Knight artifact quest). The idea with the helmet is that without a host to mentally battle the spirit(s?) trapped within the helmet, Ner'zhul would use it to take complete control of the Scourge and turn it upon the world.

    What I meant by "a new Scourge" was that with Bolvar wearing the helmet, the undead under the Lich King's control are primarily docile, scattered clumps of zombies who are easily dealt with and only remain due to sheer numbers, only attacking on sight like an animal would; under Arthas or Ner'zhul, they would reorganize by the Lich King's will, seek out victims and run rampant like before (and as implied by the Icecrown dungeons, Arthas was actually holding the full force of the Scourge back, if only because of his master plan to bait heroes into fighting him).
    I think what we see as Ner'zhul is but a fragment of his soul or whatever that is left within the frostmourne, As Terenas' soul explained: Without a Lich King, the undead will run rampant. I think he meant that someone has to control the Scourge or they will run rampant without a leader, not to fight Ner'zhul's influence and dominion over the scourge.

    But we're going out of topic. So what would you propose? can you think of a plan to bring the races of azeroth into becoming occultists?

  19. #79
    Dreadlord Leviatharan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Atop the Golden Throne, wondering how it was easier to get up than back down.
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by banestalker View Post
    But we're going out of topic. So what would you propose? can you think of a plan to bring the races of azeroth into becoming occultists?
    I got one:

    Each race already had their own versions of the Occultist acting as separate entities, like the Blood Knights and Sunwalkers acting as independent Paladin orders. The reason the player is able to walk freely through Stormwind and Orgrimmar is because they're considered part of native religious practices and relief efforts, just like Priests and Shaman... who happen to have necromantic abilities (hey, if Priests can channel the Old Gods without batting an eye, and low-level Rogues/Warlocks can walk in broad daylight, the guards can't even grimace through an Occultist mending their bones and restoring their blood).
    If we need an explanation for why Occultists are just popping up now (which isn't necessary - Monks had none and several race/class combos didn't during get any during Cataclysm), you could blame it on the recent excursion to Draenor causing some races to move back to their roots, while the Forsaken are becoming more desperate to reproduce somehow.

    With the stirring of the new Lich King in the wake of the Legion's return, Kel'thuzad's phylactery has been found, and the Cult of the Damned has re-formed in order to piece the Lich back together. The Occultist - whose powers are uniquely suited to dealing with and disrupting these kinds of rituals - is quietly given the task of securing the phylactery before Kel'thuzad can be reconstituted as a Lich, since all eyes and efforts are focused on the Legion and such news would bring panic.
    However, upon obtaining the urn, the survivors of the Cult of the Damned bow down in worship of the Occultist as their new leader, seeing him/her as surpassing the Lich or perhaps even believing him/her chosen as Kel'thuzad's speaker. (I'm personally a fan of the latter, where the player gets the choice to either destroy the phylactery and risk the discovery they aren't the speaker, or keep it and risk Kel'thuzad's manipulations as he speaks to and through you.)

    As the leader of the new/reformed Cult of the Damned, you work quietly to support the effort against the Legion, much as the Uncrowned work from the shadows, while only trusting those who can be discrete about the Cult's resurgence lest you all be slaughtered. The emissaries have letters with your stamp of approval delivered directly to the leaders of the Darkspear Spiritbinders, Draenei Auchenai, Thalassian Blood Mages, Forsaken necromancers (whatever you want to call them, it'd have to be a new organization with the Cult of Forgotten Shadow in the Priesthood) and so on, rather than brazenly marching into throne rooms and bowing at convenient head-chopping height.
    Last edited by Leviatharan; 2016-12-06 at 12:44 AM.
    Leviatharan - Level 120 Blood Elf Unholy Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Conflux> - Drak'Tharon US

    Now author of Morbid Musings, a blog dedicated to DK theorycraft. Ish.

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord Gamevizier's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, US
    Posts
    4,717
    After a little review of the main idea, I decided to change the lore regarding the Occultist to make them appear more secretive. they do still start the game at a high level though and the starting zone remains unchanged because I believe one of the main reasons that monks were not properly received by the audience was because of their starting level.

    I did a little research into the shadow priest playstyle and their lore but didnt find much evidence that points to similarities between blood magic and disc, or spectromancy and shadow priests. shadow priests in lore are now connected to the void and not the shadowlands, while a spectromancer deals with ghosts and spectres shadow priests deal with the powers of the void.

    I am however considering removing plague and making blight a more active part of the Occultist's playstyle. so as an Occultist you can create blighted ground that buffs your minions and allies while debuffing your enemies. Spectromancer's energy will be changed to just the soulpool. how it can work is that the spectromancer has a few abilities that add to the spectromancer's soul pool once they deal damage to the enemy, who then receive a debuff, once spectromancer's soul pool reaches their desired amount they can switch to lich form and use the soul pools to cast a more powerful version of their abilities similar to demonology pre-legion but instead of outright consuming the soul pool they leave a degenerating effect on the pool, the more spells you cast the stronger the degeneration will be and upon hitting 0 soul pools you return to your normal form. some of the mechanic described is already in the OP but it needs to be polished.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviatharan View Post
    With the stirring of the new Lich King in the wake of the Legion's return, Kel'thuzad's phylactery has been found, and the Cult of the Damned has re-formed in order to piece the Lich back together. The Occultist - whose powers are uniquely suited to dealing with and disrupting these kinds of rituals - is quietly given the task of securing the phylactery before Kel'thuzad can be reconstituted as a Lich, since all eyes and efforts are focused on the Legion and such news would bring panic.
    However, upon obtaining the urn, the survivors of the Cult of the Damned bow down in worship of the Occultist as their new leader, seeing him/her as surpassing the Lich or perhaps even believing him/her chosen as Kel'thuzad's speaker. (I'm personally a fan of the latter, where the player gets the choice to either destroy the phylactery and risk the discovery they aren't the speaker, or keep it and risk Kel'thuzad's manipulations as he speaks to and through you.) .
    but Kel'thuzad is one of the main scourge figures that still remains and is recognizable by the audience. you're suggesting turning the main advisor of lich king into your personal bitch whose life you can end at your will. I'm a main opponent of the current "godmode" theme that blizzard is giving to our characters, which is why I also oppose the idea of our character holding Kel'thuzad's life in their hands. also, what you're describing is not an acolyte of the damned, it's not even a cultist but more like a spy/source hunter. the main theme of a Cultist is that you have feel that you're part of the cult you're in, you're describing exactly the opposite.

    but you do have a point about Scourge not being welcomed in general into the faction cities. especially regarding the blood elves, but keep in mind that this new cult is no longer a villain, and thus the narrative has to paint them as either the anti-heroes or the heroes. i prefer the theme of anti hero personally as not all groups have to be a beacon of morality like the Paladins. In general I think the scourge needs to be at least recognized by some groups within a faction. perhaps the higher echelons who do not take actions based on what is morally right, but based on what leads to their prosperity eventually. acting in secret does indeed give the occultist the feel that they are acting as a secretive cultist and not as an official agent of some establishment.

    as of each occultist being a member of a cult that is related to their race, I still think that there needs to be something to glue them all togther. what can explain a Thalassian Blood Mage (which is btw different from an actual blood mage, I did mention this in the past posts) practicing spectromancy? or a draenei soulbinder practicing blood magic? that glue can be, imo, the cult of the damned or some third party establishment that brings all these groups together. the Auchenai soulpriests, the Darkspear soulbinders, the necromancers, etc. etc.
    Last edited by Gamevizier; 2016-12-13 at 06:34 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •