Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Aucald]

Dath'remar would be alongside people who have the sunwell, because their whole journey began by their desire to create sunwell and live in a magical society

Depends on what was more important to him: continuation of Quel'thalas or avoidance of Fel corruption or association with the Fel. Dath'remar is definitely against the Legion and all it represents as he both rebelled against the Highborne and took the fight to the Legion in the Felo'melorn Artifact lore. It's impossible to say how he would react to the circumstances that the modern Elves find themselves in.

[Rhlor]

Depends on what was more important to him: continuation of Quel'thalas or avoidance of Fel corruption or association with the Fel. Dath'remar is definitely against the Legion and all it represents as he both rebelled against the Highborne and took the fight to the Legion in the Felo'melorn Artifact lore. It's impossible to say how he would react to the circumstances that the modern Elves find themselves in.

The Warcraft Encyclopedia/Blood Elves
he Consequences of Addiction
Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. Unlike high elves, blood elves have decided that in the absence of the Sunwell, they will feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources.

However, some basic similarities remain between blood elves and high elves, for both groups belong to the same race. As with high elves, most blood elves are not spellcasters. Blood elves do not drain magic in order to engage in spellcasting, but simply to feed their addiction to arcane magic. Gaining this magic on a reasonably regular basis has not given immortality to the blood elves, who are just as prone to illness, injury, and age as their high elf brethren. To date, there have been no observations of a significant difference between blood elf and high elf lifespans.

On several occasions after the Sunwell's defilement, Kael'thas publicly asserted that his people would die unless they found a new source of magic. There can be no doubt that withdrawal from prolonged exposure to arcane magic is a very unpleasant process: to this day it is not impossible that a high elf might choose to give in to the addiction and become one of the blood elves. Technically, though, the prince was mistaken. According to the top priests and medics on Azeroth, the only high elves who perished due to the Sunwell's loss were the very old, the very young, and elves who were already in poor health.

This is not to say, however, that withdrawal from magic would leave the blood elves unharmed. On the contrary, permanent mental or physical damage is possible.

Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons. Yet, as their hunger grows, blood elves--particularly those in Outland--are becoming increasingly inured to the things they must do in order to obtain more magic.

[Aucald]

Blood Elves and High Elves may both have their views and opinions on the matter, but the reality of the situation makes it an actual fact that Blood Elves are the real continuation of the High Elf kingdom, since the majority of them and its rulers ensure Quel'Thalas to still be a thing to this day. The High Elves' convictions can only be tied on ideology, lacking the power and following however to validate their views.

The contemporary High Elves are exiles from their own kingdom, though. They lack a majority but I wouldn't say they're entirely divorced from any claim on the Elven lands of Quel'thalas. The High Elves also aren't exactly small in size - comprised of the Silver Covenant forces, the Allerian forces led by Auric Sunchaser in Outland, the Elves of Highvale, and the High Elves of the Farstrider Lodge in Loch Modan. Personally I don't disagree that the Blood Elves represent a more direct continuation of legacy of the Elves of the Eastern Kingdoms, but that's just my view of the matter and not necessarily a concrete fact.

- - - Updated - - -

The Warcraft Encyclopedia/Blood Elves
he Consequences of Addiction
Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. Unlike high elves, blood elves have decided that in the absence of the Sunwell, they will feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources.

However, some basic similarities remain between blood elves and high elves, for both groups belong to the same race. As with high elves, most blood elves are not spellcasters. Blood elves do not drain magic in order to engage in spellcasting, but simply to feed their addiction to arcane magic. Gaining this magic on a reasonably regular basis has not given immortality to the blood elves, who are just as prone to illness, injury, and age as their high elf brethren. To date, there have been no observations of a significant difference between blood elf and high elf lifespans.

On several occasions after the Sunwell's defilement, Kael'thas publicly asserted that his people would die unless they found a new source of magic. There can be no doubt that withdrawal from prolonged exposure to arcane magic is a very unpleasant process: to this day it is not impossible that a high elf might choose to give in to the addiction and become one of the blood elves. Technically, though, the prince was mistaken. According to the top priests and medics on Azeroth, the only high elves who perished due to the Sunwell's loss were the very old, the very young, and elves who were already in poor health.

This is not to say, however, that withdrawal from magic would leave the blood elves unharmed. On the contrary, permanent mental or physical damage is possible.

Even so, the prince's relatively quick acceptance of dire measures (e.g., draining magic from demons) is by no means characteristic of blood elves in general. The blood elves of Outland have by now discovered Kael'thas' agreement with Illidan, and they have for the most part become convinced of its necessity. Most blood elves still live on Azeroth, though. Few of these elves know of Kael'thas' pact with Illidan, and many would be horrified if they discovered it. Draining magic from small mana-bearing vermin is a far cry from draining magic from demons. Yet, as their hunger grows, blood elves--particularly those in Outland--are becoming increasingly inured to the things they must do in order to obtain more magic.

That is definitely the immediate history of the Blood Elves - I'm not sure what it has with Dath'remar's legacy and/or his unknown position on the matter?

[Rhlor]

The contemporary High Elves are exiles from their own kingdom, though. They lack a majority but I wouldn't say they're entirely divorced from any claim on the Elven lands of Quel'thalas. The High Elves also aren't exactly small in size - comprised of the Silver Covenant forces, the Allerian forces led by Auric Sunchaser in Outland, the Elves of Highvale, and the High Elves of the Farstrider Lodge in Loch Modan. Personally I don't disagree that the Blood Elves represent a more direct continuation of legacy of the Elves of the Eastern Kingdoms, but that's just my view of the matter and not necessarily a concrete fact.

- - - Updated - - -



That is definitely the immediate history of the Blood Elves - I'm not sure what it has with Dath'remar's legacy and/or his unknown position on the matter?

The elves of blood of Quel'thalas did not use fel nor made pacts with demons.

captain auric was queldanas with many high elves.

purification of queldelar

Lor'themar Theron says: You are a hero and an inspiration to the sin'dorei, <name>, a symbol of our endurance in the face of tragedy and treachery.
Grand Magister Rommath says: The regent speaks truly, <name>. Thalorien's sacrifice could not prevent the fall of this very Sunwell.
Grand Magister Rommath says: When you found the sword, it was broken and abandoned, much like Silvermoon after Kael'thas's betrayal.
Grand Magister Rommath says: Let Quel'Delar be a sign that we will never give up, that we will face any enemy without fear.
Captain Auric Sunchaser says: Quel'Delar is not held in high esteem by the sin'dorei alone. It holds a place in the heart of all children of Silvermoon.
Captain Auric Sunchaser says: This blade has been returned to us for a reason, my lords. Now is the time to rally behind the bearer of Quel'Delar and avenge the destruction of Silvermoon and the Sunwell.

[Aquamonkey]

Depends on what was more important to him: continuation of Quel'thalas or avoidance of Fel corruption or association with the Fel. Dath'remar is definitely against the Legion and all it represents as he both rebelled against the Highborne and took the fight to the Legion in the Felo'melorn Artifact lore. It's impossible to say how he would react to the circumstances that the modern Elves find themselves in.

The defining characteristic of the Quel'Thalas BElves was draining mana from vermin. That is something Dath'remar would likely find acceptable considering he risked death to continue arcane magic back on Kalimdor. But as king, or at least high up if retired, he'd probably be aware of Rommath's usage of fel magic, his reaction to which is more uncertain. He'd definitely not approve of what Kael'thas did.

[Aucald]

The defining characteristic of the Quel'Thalas BElves was draining mana from vermin. That is something Dath'remar would likely find acceptable considering he risked death to continue arcane magic back on Kalimdor. But as king, or at least high up if retired, he'd probably be aware of Rommath's usage of fel magic, his reaction to which is more uncertain. He'd definitely not approve of what Kael'thas did.

Possible, and I'd likely agree. I'm just saying we can't know for sure how Dath'remar would react to any of this because he was dead long before it came to pass. The same reason that Dath'remar shouldn't be called a Blood Elf despite parallels to the existing faction - his people were the High Elves of Quel'thalas and his time was well before the ideological schism that divided them.

[Zulkhan]

The contemporary High Elves are exiles from their own kingdom, though. They lack a majority but I wouldn't say they're entirely divorced from any claim on the Elven lands of Quel'thalas.

They may see Quel'Thalas as their home by their choices brought them apart from their own kingdom. The last descendant of the Sunstrider line was the very one who renamed High Elves into Blood Elves, and the Regent Lord he personally chose to take his place for the time being, while rejecting Kael'thas' descent into madness and affiliations with the Legion, reinforced some of the prince's politics while having the following of most of the surviving Thalassians in Quel'Thalas, which make them the Blood Elves we know today. Between the regency and general consensus of the Quel'Thalas' people in following certain politics, it makes the High Elves look like little more than a faction of extremists that didn't accept Quel'Thalas' new direction and situation, which is surely how your most average citizen of Quel'Thalas would look at them. Which doesn't even mean they're unable to see the High Elf point of view but surely any Blood Elf of Quel'Thalas did not deem such views and opinions worthy of dissent and exile.

Long story short, High Elves have no legitimacy over anything and can consider Quel'Thalas their legitimate "home" only because they deem it so, not because they belong there for any legal reason. On the end of the day, it's Blood Elves that have the actual authority to decide wherever High Elves can truly belong there once again.

The High Elves also aren't exactly small in size - comprised of the Silver Covenant forces, the Allerian forces led by Auric Sunchaser in Outland, the Elves of Highvale, and the High Elves of the Farstrider Lodge in Loch Modan.

They're not necessarily small in size but they remain a minority, and most importantly the factions you mentioned denote the other issue: High Elves are very much divided and lack a real common ground, they don't necessarily agree on politics nor they offer any alternative to the Blood Elf's legitimate government in Quel'Thalas, they just live their existences as best as they can and that's it. The most we have saw of them is Auric being a representative of sort, but apart that a severe lack of real and organized leadership remain.

High Elves carry no ambitious goals whatsoever and even their status as "High Elves" do not exist because of a single political position, as it's divided between those who were directly involved with the recent events of Quel'Thalas and denied the politics enforced by the Blood Elf's state ("faction" made of the Silver Covenant and all the High Elf lodges in the northern side of the Eastern Kingdoms) or those that simply weren't involved anymore with their kingdom's affairs by a long time, remaining "High Elves" for the mere fact that they weren't there to witness Kael'thas renaming their people (another "faction" made from the High Elves of Theramore, Outland and some other lodges around the world).

Personally I don't disagree that the Blood Elves represent a more direct continuation of legacy of the Elves of the Eastern Kingdoms, but that's just my view of the matter and not necessarily a concrete fact.

It's a concrete fact as long the Blood Elves maintain their hold on Quel'Thalas and represent the majority of the Thalassians, a majority very much united in their purpose to ensure the safety and prosperity of their kingdom. High Elves' main purpose in life is just existing and clinging over their lost past, possessing no legal rights or claims over anything, nor showing any real unity of purpose or the power to do anything in the first place. At least, that's what the current situation is and will most probably be in the years to come.

[Magnagarde]

It's not very clear which kind of point you wanted to prove by quoting Rholr in the first place.

It is not clear because you are not reading. He said Dath'remar was a blood elf; I told him that he wasn't. Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, that is a fact. He couldn't have been something that didn't even exist at that point of time.

Nobody talked about wether he would or would not be a blood elf if he was still alive today, but you came along discussing what if scenarios that are pure speculation and not facts.

You are simply playing around the topic at hand, avoiding it by introducing speculative scenarios because you are unable to admit that Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, for whatever reason known only to you.

- - - Updated - - -

Possible, and I'd likely agree. I'm just saying we can't know for sure how Dath'remar would react to any of this because he was dead long before it came to pass. The same reason that Dath'remar shouldn't be called a Blood Elf despite parallels to the existing faction - his people were the High Elves of Quel'thalas and his time was well before the ideological schism that divided them.

I've got exactly the same position. We can endlessly speculate what could and would've been within different what if scenarios, but at the end of the day we can factually conclude only upon what has happened.

[Rhlor]

It is not clear because you are not reading. He said Dath'remar was a blood elf; I told him that he wasn't. Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, that is a fact. He couldn't have been something that didn't even exist at that point of time.

Nobody talked about wether he would or would not be a blood elf if he was still alive today, but you came along discussing what if scenarios that are pure speculation and not facts.

You are simply playing around the topic at hand, avoiding it by introducing speculative scenarios because you are unable to admit that Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, for whatever reason known only to you.

- - - Updated - - -



I've got exactly the same position. We can endlessly speculate what could and would've been within different what if scenarios, but at the end of the day we can factually conclude only upon what has happened.

dathremar=thalassian

blood/high elf= thalassian

[Koryn123]

Gotta hand it to Elisande, she totally dropped the mic on the Night / High Elves, literally just said what everyones wanted to see for years.

Eh, not in a way that anyone will acknowledge it though.

Bad guys can speak their mind all they like, but the good guy characters never accept it, even if it's the truth, like what Garrosh said to Thrall during their duel in Nagrand before Thrall broke the rules of Mak'gora and murdered him.

[Mehrunes]

What are you even talking about? You are totally derailing the discussion, in addition to attempting to dismiss the fact that he wasn't a blood elf as nonsense. We are not talking about possibilities here or alternate scenarios; we are talking about facts.

Is derailing your new buzzword of choice for when you tire of TEH CIRCLEJERK? And lel, "we're talking facts". So endearing.

The more you keep defying facts presented to you, the more you appear like a troll.

You mean like you did about the difference between High Elves and Blood Elves in non-political terms (or lack of thereof) you had with Aqua, when he posted source after source and you deflected it grasping for smaller and smaller straws? Well, it's nice of you to confess at least.

It's not a good comparison because Kul Tiras and Stormwind are distinctive human kingdoms with very divided histories, going back to the times of when Arathor originally split into a bunch of lesser human kingdoms. "Blood Elves" are not really much of a faction in that sense, they're basically the direct continuation of Quel'Thalas' existence, with the so called "High Elves" of recent years being themselves an actual faction of exiled renegades. You can't disconnect Blood Elves from the early history of their people when they're even more a direct continuation of that legacy than even the current "High Elves" are.

Not to mention there's been only a few generations since then.

The contemporary High Elves are exiles from their own kingdom, though. They lack a majority but I wouldn't say they're entirely divorced from any claim on the Elven lands of Quel'thalas. The High Elves also aren't exactly small in size - comprised of the Silver Covenant forces, the Allerian forces led by Auric Sunchaser in Outland, the Elves of Highvale, and the High Elves of the Farstrider Lodge in Loch Modan. Personally I don't disagree that the Blood Elves represent a more direct continuation of legacy of the Elves of the Eastern Kingdoms, but that's just my view of the matter and not necessarily a concrete fact.

They've been exiled, they have no claims. Exiles are usually permanent. This one is if only due to polarizing faction allegiances following the exile. And there's little point in granting (well, to be more accurate, preserving) rights to/of those who have been banished and banned from returning forever. And other than the Silver Covenant (which has been having its ass kicked for quite some time now), the other groups of High Elves aren't particularly populous. Alleria took a small squad with her. Lodges aren't particularly big either. Quel'lithien's complete extermination after they became Wretched was tasked to a single adventurer for example.

[Zulkhan]

It is not clear because you are not reading. He said Dath'remar was a blood elf; I told him that he wasn't. Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, that is a fact. He couldn't have been something that didn't even exist at that point of time.

Let's pick your quote specifically, just to realize how pointless it was:

You can't really compare Dath'remar to the blood elves nor attribute his deeds to them because Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf to begin with nor has he done anything of the sorts they have. Giving blood elves credits over what Dath'remar did isn't on target at all.

which was in response to:

It is worth remembering that the blood elves (highborne) fought alongside the kaldorei resistance in the war of the ancients. Dathremar sunstrider saved the life of tyrande

The funny thing is that you quoted the part in bold here yet talked about Dath'remar exclusively. Rhlor's quote didn't even directly tied Dath'remar to the word Blood Elf, just said that Blood Elves fought alongside the Kaldorei Resistance during the War of the Ancients, which they did. The fact that they didn't call themselves "Blood Elves" back then does not mean they didn't. He also added (highborne) to specifically point out what Blood Elves were back then, not Blood Elves and not even High Elves, they were still Highborne Night Elves, which naturally include the current High Elves (reason why he later wrote Blood/High Elves = Highborne or Blood/High Elves = Thalassians).

Long story short, your Captain Obvious intervention wasn't needed and didn't change Rhlor's point whatsoever.

You are simply playing around the topic at hand, avoiding it by introducing speculative scenarios because you are unable to admit that Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf, for whatever reason known only to you.

No, I just committed the mistake to interpret and understand a point that didn't exist in the first place. You literally quoted Rhlor and nitpicked over bullshit when the point he tried to make was clear enough, without the need of an enlightened mind to remind him that Dath'remar couldn't call himself into something that didn't even exist back then. Guess what, he wasn't even an High Elf at that point in time yet.

[Deleted]

Eh, not in a way that anyone will acknowledge it though.

Bad guys can speak their mind all they like, but the good guy characters never accept it, even if it's the truth, like what Garrosh said to Thrall during their duel in Nagrand before Thrall broke the rules of Mak'gora and murdered him.

That duel was the best part of wod IMO.

But yes, what Elisande said will change nothing. The story of the Elves in legion is over, we find another way into the Nighthold and raid the place. I dont think anything will change in Suramar after that, I dont think we will come back to Suramar after the raid is over.

[Zulkhan]

Bad guys can speak their mind all they like, but the good guy characters never accept it, even if it's the truth, like what Garrosh said to Thrall during their duel in Nagrand before Thrall broke the rules of Mak'gora and murdered him.

That's the issue with bad guys. Their shitty actions tend to undervalue whatever kind of truth they may speak.

[Koryn123]

That's the issue with bad guys. Their shitty actions tend to undervalue whatever kind of truth they may speak.

Yup. Pity that the only truth bombs we get are from the guys nobody will ever listen to. Like Garrosh in War Crimes where he said he'd do it all over again because he was doing what was best for the Horde, even if he was being negligent which hurt his allies. He was still trying to provide for the orcs who lived in a desert, eliminate Theramore who was helping the Night Elves against the orcs, and eventually the Alliance across the sea who joined in too.

Of course, it's all understandable that they'd help, but all Garrosh could do was consider them enemies for helping his enemy.

[Aucald]

They've been exiled, they have no claims. Exiles are usually permanent. This one is if only due to polarizing faction allegiances following the exile. And there's little point in granting (well, to be more accurate, preserving) rights to/of those who have been banished and banned from returning forever. And other than the Silver Covenant (which has been having its ass kicked for quite some time now), the other groups of High Elves aren't particularly populous. Alleria took a small squad with her. Lodges aren't particularly big either. Quel'lithien's complete extermination after they became Wretched was tasked to a single adventurer for example.

With the restoration of the Sunwell and the events of "Shadow of the Sun" the High Elves are largely only exiles in their minds - Lor'themar and the government of Silvermoon extended an olive branch for them to return only to have Aurora Skycaller and Renthar Hawkspear spit it back into his face out of what I felt was a misplaced sense of anger and pride. The High Elves are somewhat scattered but they're still not a negligible political force in their own right (part and parcel of Lor'themar's attempts to return them to the fold as well as to assuage his own regrets over their exile).

[OIS]

Yup. Pity that the only truth bombs we get are from the guys nobody will ever listen to. Like Garrosh in War Crimes where he said he'd do it all over again because he was doing what was best for the Horde, even if he was being negligent which hurt his allies. He was still trying to provide for the orcs who lived in a desert, eliminate Theramore who was helping the Night Elves against the orcs, and eventually the Alliance across the sea who joined in too.

Of course, it's all understandable that they'd help, but all Garrosh could do was consider them enemies for helping his enemy.

It was more like an evil gloating in Garrosh's case though.

[Magnagarde]

You literally quoted Rhlor and nitpicked over bullshit when the point he tried to make was clear enough, without the need of an enlightened mind to remind him that Dath'remar couldn't call himself into something that didn't even exist back then. Guess what, he wasn't even an High Elf at that point in time yet.

He made no point whatsoever by claiming that Dath'remar was a blood elf because his people would become blood elves thousands upon thousands of years later. Actually, he did make a point, but an invalid one. He needed reminding over and over again because he kept claiming that Dath'remar was a "blood/high elf", which is completely untrue because he couldn't have been a blood elf. Instead of having replied to me, you should've replied to him and told him the same; a character can't be something that didn't even exist. The entire discussion was about wether he was a blood elf or not and a simple "no" would've been sufficient enough to bring a discussion about something as factually trivial as that to end.

What I've learned is that it is - for a reason only known to you two - very hard to make a statement about Dath'remar not being a blood elf. Instead, you start talking about what he would be if he would've still been alive, he starts adding pictures of other blood elven characters which weren't part of the discussion at han and more, while all along avoiding to state the obvious - that he wasn't a blood elf. All of these posts, all of this looping around the topic at hand and all this to avoid stating that Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf.

Regardless of this, I don't intend to talk about how Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf for an entire week. Whoever thinks Dath'remar is a blood elf is free to do so and I don't intend to ponder over facts any longer; take from them whatever you wish to take.

- - - Updated - - -

eliminate Theramore who was helping the Night Elves against the orcs

Theramore was helping an entire race save their ancestral forest from being grinded into ruin by the Horde? Is that supposed to make them evil? Is that supposed to make them bad? I don't understand the logic behind this; are you actually trying to say that defending someone from someone who is attacking them, grabbing their land and destroying it is a bad thing?

You are attempting to twist a benevolent effort - the defense of one's ancestral land and preservation of nature - into something that is bad, which it certainly wasn't. Ever since Warcraft III, the orcs were savagely and aggresively encroaching on night elven territories.

If you see nothing wrong in invading someone's land, taking their settlements over, burning them down(First/Second War Horde scenario all over again) and destroying the nature which is one of the native's populace most sacred symbols, then continuing this discussion is pointless to begin with.

[Rhlor]

He made no point whatsoever by claiming that Dath'remar was a blood elf because his people would become blood elves thousands upon thousands of years later. Actually, he did make a point, but an invalid one. He needed reminding over and over again because he kept claiming that Dath'remar was a "blood/high elf", which is completely untrue because he couldn't have been a blood elf. Instead of having replied to me, you should've replied to him and told him the same; a character can't be something that didn't even exist. The entire discussion was about wether he was a blood elf or not and a simple "no" would've been sufficient enough to bring a discussion about something as factually trivial as that to end.

What I've learned is that it is - for a reason only known to you two - very hard to make a statement about Dath'remar not being a blood elf. Instead, you start talking about what he would be if he would've still been alive, he starts adding pictures of other blood elven characters which weren't part of the discussion at han and more, while all along avoiding to state the obvious - that he wasn't a blood elf. All of these posts, all of this looping around the topic at hand and all this to avoid stating that Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf.

Regardless of this, I don't intend to talk about how Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf for an entire week. Whoever thinks Dath'remar is a blood elf is free to do so and I don't intend to ponder over facts any longer; take from them whatever you wish to take.

- - - Updated - - -



Theramore was helping an entire race save their ancestral forest from being grinded into ruin by the Horde? Is that supposed to make them evil? Is that supposed to make them bad? I don't understand the logic behind this; are you actually trying to say that defending someone from someone who is attacking them, grabbing their land and destroying it is a bad thing?

You are attempting to twist a benevolent effort - the defense of one's ancestral land and preservation of nature - into something that is bad, which it certainly wasn't. Ever since Warcraft III, the orcs were savagely and aggresively encroaching on night elven territories.

If you see nothing wrong in invading someone's land, taking their settlements over, burning them down(First/Second War Horde scenario all over again) and destroying the nature which is one of the native's populace most sacred symbols, then continuing this discussion is pointless to begin with.

dathremar=thalassian

blood/high elf=thalassian

[Koryn123]

Theramore was helping an entire race save their ancestral forest from being grinded into ruin by the Horde? Is that supposed to make them evil? Is that supposed to make them bad? I don't understand the logic behind this; are you actually trying to say that defending someone from someone who is attacking them, grabbing their land and destroying it is a bad thing?

You are attempting to twist a benevolent effort - the defense of one's ancestral land and preservation of nature - into something that is bad, which it certainly wasn't. Ever since Warcraft III, the orcs were savagely and aggresively encroaching on night elven territories.

If you see nothing wrong in invading someone's land, taking their settlements over, burning them down(First/Second War Horde scenario all over again) and destroying the nature which is one of the native's populace most sacred symbols, then continuing this discussion is pointless to begin with.

Nice of them, but still made themselves an enemy of the Horde.

Objectively speaking, it's not bad of them to help the Night Elves because that was rightfully their land and their resources, which they're free to do whatever they wish with, even if it's just to sit on all the healthy land and not use any of it.

But from Garrosh's perspective, he was dealing with a foreign power that had completely sealed itself off from all trade relations, for something that wasn't the orcs' fault (Putress working for the Legion and betraying both the Horde and the Alliance at the Wrathgate, killing countless heroes on both sides), and even considered Azshara to be Night Elf territory, when it was held by the Naga.

The Night Elves basically said "If it has trees, it's ours. Even if we don't live there and haven't for 3 years and haven't made any major effort to take it back from the naga, it's still ours. Nobody else is allowed to use it."


I see things from both perspectives. The Night Elves didn't want to give up their land, because it was THEIR land. And they hold nature to be sacred, which unfortunately resulted in them hogging all the land healthy enough to grow plenty of trees, namely the upper half of the entire continent, and they all move to a giant tree on an island off the coast of the continent, so their healthy land goes largely uninhabited compared to Teldrassil, which has no major importance like Nordrassil did with the Aspects' blessings.

The Orcs couldn't go without lumber to build their shelters, tools, wagons, wheels, chairs, tables, etc., and the nearest alternative source of lumber that could possibly sustain them was Stonetalon Mountains, which would be a monumental task to get that lumber safely down the mountain and haul it so far back to Durotar. Mulgore doesn't have enough trees. Un'goro Crater would be even more dangerous, with all those dinosaurs, and getting it up into Tanaris, and taking it through the desert and Thousand Needles, then the rest of the way to Durotar. And Feralas was way too far away, behind all those obstacles, to be viable. Literally no other sources of lumber that would support such a large population. They tried trading with the Alliance across the sea for lumber from Elwynn in exchange for furs and skins from exotic animals of Kalimdor, but those negotiations were sabotaged by the Twilight's Hammer (with both sides calling for the others' heads, not just Garrosh), so there were no other options, especially with the world shattering from the Cataclysm. Even if you forget the Horde/Alliance conflict, there was still the Twilight's Hammer, which would require the Horde's help, which would require weapons and armor, which would require resources, which the Horde did not have because the Night Elves were hogging all of it and Theramore got everything they needed and couldn't get on Kalimdor from Stormwind and Ironforge (including lumber).


From Garrosh's perspective, there was nothing else he could have done, and Theramore was getting in the way of the only solution to his people's need.


And Theramore's meddling would be fine if they'd just admit that they were meddling, rather than play innocent. They can whine that they did the moral thing, but whining that they never did anything to warrant a counterattack from the Horde is nonsense. Jumping into a conflict you had no place in may sometimes be the morally right thing to do, but that doesn't mean you're still neutral because you're doing what you think is right and nobody is allowed to retaliate against you, no matter how much you kick and scream and complain that your idiocy bit you in the ass.



The Night Elves aren't evil for defending their land.

The Orcs aren't evil for taking what they needed to survive from an uncooperative people who have literally everything they could ever need resource-wise and weren't using any of it, after all other options were exhausted.

Theramore isn't evil for getting involved in the fight, but they are idiots for thinking the Horde had no right to attack them.