Is Archimonde really dead?

[bubbadubba]

So Legion never happens for Mythic players then..... because then Gu''dan will not be send to Azeroth.

"While The Defiler met his apparent end at the Battle of Mount Hyjal, his demonic soul remained tied to the Twisting Nether, allowing him to return."

We fought his demonic soul in the twisting nether, his body was in draenor still. So it is possible that he still sent gul'dan flying into the portal as he was in both planes of existence.

[Deleted]

"While The Defiler met his apparent end at the Battle of Mount Hyjal, his demonic soul remained tied to the Twisting Nether, allowing him to return."

We fought his demonic soul in the twisting nether, his body was in draenor still. So it is possible that he still sent gul'dan flying into the portal as he was in both planes of existence.

Splitting your soul into two plains at he same time is new for me never heard about it before.

[Aquamonkey]

So Legion never happens for Mythic players then..... because then Gu''dan will not be send to Azeroth.

Or Gul'dan freaks out that Arch died and jumped into the portal himself.

[Aquamonkey]

No, Archimonde is not dead because he is immortal and can't die. If he can die, he can become dead. And if he can become dead, he can become undead. That's it. End of the story. No excuses. Period. If demons are living beings that die, they're mortals because mortals are defined as living beings that die. If demons are living beings that can die, they're merely mortals who cheat death.

Don't conflate the literal definition of "immortal" with what Blizzard has defined for the Warcraft universe.

Demons can die and be turned into undead, see Mannoroth.

[Nemah]

Here's the official word on Archimonde dying in the Twisting Nether. They may change it in the future.

Is Archimonde really dead?
I can tell you our idea behind that. We might change it. This might not be canon. This might be something that we decide we're gonna tinker with. I'll try and explain what the thinking was. The idea was that the demons in the Burning Legion, they're kind of immortal in that they can exist across all the planes, unless they're killed in the actual Twisting Nether itself. So killing Archimonde at the World Tree in Warcraft 3... well, he was killed on Azeroth, but he would re-coalesce in the Twisting Nether and come back to haunt us again. And the idea was if you played in Mythic and defeated Archimonde, you actually defeated him in the Nether and that he'd be dead dead for good. That was the idea that we played with. We tried to explain that and I don't know if... that certainly doesn't come across in-game because it's not necessarily explained in-game. Maybe we'll change that. Maybe we'll change the canon of that. But that was the idea that we were working with... was unless you rip these demons out and take them to the Twisting Nether and kill them there, they'll always keep coming back. But maybe that's not canon. Maybe we'll tinker with that idea. (Source)

Wow after that - only Erwin Schrodinger knows.

[bubbadubba]

Splitting your soul into two plains at he same time is new for me never heard about it before.

He didn't split his soul, he left his demonic soul in the twisting nether because he was going back in time and needed a way to connect himself back to the twisting nether.

It was more a tether between his body and soul. body in draenor, soul in twisting nether with a connection line between.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Don't conflate the literal definition of "immortal" with what Blizzard has defined for the Warcraft universe.

Demons are not living beings that die (mortals) if they're immortal and I place emphasis on not living. Get over it.

Demons can die and be turned into undead.

No they can't. Undead are former mortals as per the Chronicle. Is Mannoroth a former mortal? No

[Deleted]

He didn't split his soul, he left his demonic soul in the twisting nether because he was going back in time and needed a way to connect himself back to the twisting nether.

It was more a tether between his body and soul. body in draenor, soul in twisting nether with a connection line between.

SO basicly you see the twisting nether in Warcraft as the matrix is that correct?

[Aquamonkey]

Demons are not living beings that die (mortals) if they're immortal and I place emphasis on not living. Get over it.

You need to get over it. Blizzard defines the Warcraft universe. Immortality doesn't follow the literal definition of it. It is merely someone who doesn't age, not someone immune to death.

EDIT: Chronicle doesn't say demons are immortal.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

You need to get over it.

Need to get over what? That demons are not living beings that die (mortals)? I'm not tripping about demons being non-living entities.

Blizzard defines the Warcraft universe.

Yup and Blizzard defines demons as immortals - entities that can't really be alive because they can't die, not of age or disease anyways. If demons can die, they can become dead. And if demons can become dead, they can become undead. Demons can't become undead (former mortals), not if they're immortals.

Immortality doesn't follow the literal definition of it.

Awwww, look who's grasping at straws here. How cute.

Demons are not living beings that die (mortals) because they're immortals. If demons are merely living beings that CAN (key word: can) die, they're merely mortals who cheat death, which means that they can become undead just so long as their death-cheating way is prevented.

You stated yourself that demons can become undead, who are described as former MORTALS. If demons are IMMORTALS, they can't become former MORTALS, so why are you arguing that demons are immortals and can become undead (former mortals)? Is it because you're not smart enough to realize that demons are not living by any sense of the term?

[Aquamonkey]

Need to get over what? That demons are not living beings that die (mortals)? I'm not tripping about demons being non-living entities.

Yup and Blizzard defines demons as immortals - entities that can't really be alive because they can't die, not of age or disease anyways. If demons can die, they can become dead. And if demons can become dead, they can become undead. Demons can't become undead (former mortals), not if they're immortals.

Immortals in Warcraft are living beings that don't die to old age. Immortals can die.

Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. (WC Encyclopedia)

Awwww, look who's grasping at straws here. How cute.

Demons are not living beings that die (mortals) because they're immortals. If demons are merely living beings that CAN (key word: can) die, they're merely mortals who cheat death, which means that they can become undead just so long as their death-cheating way is prevented.

You stated yourself that demons can become undead, who are described as former MORTALS. If demons are IMMORTALS, they can't become former MORTALS, so why are you arguing that demons are immortals and can become undead (former mortals)? Is it because you're not smart enough to realize that demons are not living by any sense of the term?

You had a point with Mannoroth, but you've overstepped your assertion. Most demons were once mortal.

Most demons in the Burning Legion were once mortal creatures. (WC Encyclopedia)

"Like most demons, Kil'jaeden was originally a mortal."
--Rise of the Lich King

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Immortals can die.

No they can't because if immortals are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

You had a point with Mannoroth, but you've overstepped your assertion.

I haven't.

Most demons were once mortal.

Most demons were (key word: were) once mortal, but demons can't become former mortals because they're immortals. They would - or do - have to lose their immortality, becoming mortals, in order to BECOME undead (former mortals).

It's funny how the Chronicle establishes that mortals can become demons (immortals) without becoming undead (former mortals). hehehehe.

[Aquamonkey]

No they can't because if immortals are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

"if immortals are living beings that can die" This statement is true. I just cited where Blizzard literally said so. WTF do you even mean by "mortals who cheat death"? Mortals can become immortal. Mortals can cheat death.

Most demons were(key word: were) once mortal, but demons can't become former mortals because they're immortals. They would - or do - have to lose their immortality, becoming mortals, in order to BECOME undead (former mortals).

They were former mortals. They were mortal, then they became immortal. They were formerly mortal.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Mortals can cheat death.

"WTF do you even mean by "mortals who cheat death"?

Mortals are living beings, hence they die and can become dead and undead. If living beings can cheat death and immortals are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

Mortals can become immortal.

Mortals can become immortals? If (key word: if) mortals are defined as living beings that die and are NOT immortals, immortals are not living beings that die (mortals). That's it. End of the story. No excuses. Period.

At this point, you're clearly trolling. It's either mortals are living beings that die or they're not. If mortals are living beings that die and demons are not mortals, demons are not living beings that die (mortals). If mortals are living beings that can die and if demons are living beings that can die, demons are no different from mortals who cheat death. It's as simple as that.

So, are demons living beings that die (mortals) or are they not living beings that die? To state demons don't die from aging is to imply that demons transcend, or are outside of, time and are therefore unaffected by time. And I'm just curious how demons are immune to a chronomantic force, which basically pushes things every living thing towards a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic.

No where does the Chronicle state that demons can die from death or necromantic magic. And since death knights, hunters, priests, monks, rogues, shaman, and warriors can't really open portals to demonic worlds or travel beyond their world without the aid of a mage or warlock, I doubt there is any hardcore proof that demons can be destroyed. The only true way to rid the universe of demons is with a void.

[Aquamonkey]

Mortals are living beings, hence they die.

To old age.

If immortals are living beings that can die,

This is true per WoG.

Mortals can become immortals?

This is true per WoG.

There is nothing to argue on these points. They are facts of the Warcraft universe. You have not provided anything to disprove the WoG on these points.

they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

And you fail to elaborate on your statement. WTF does "cheat death" mean? Mortals have sought to obtain immortality.

If mortals are defined as living beings that die and are NOT immortals, immortals are not living beings that die (mortals). That's it. End of the story. No excuses. Period.

Negation of one component doesn't mean negation of the whole. Just because immortals don't die to old age like mortals, doesn't mean immortals are not alive.

Don't throw your literal definition of immortal into the Warcraft universe. You can't even keep the literal definition of immortal straight.

At this point, you're clearly trolling. It's either mortals are living beings that die or they're not.

Mortals are living beings that die to old age.

If mortals are living beings that die and demons are not mortals, demons are not living beings that die (mortals). If mortals are living beings that can die and if demons are living beings that can die, demons no different from mortals who cheat death. It's as simple as that.

Mortals are living beings that die to old age. Immortals are living beings that don't die to old age. Both can die when killed. It's as simple as that.

It's funny how the Chronicle establishes that mortals can become demons (immortals) without becoming undead (former mortals). hehehehe.

You need a lesson in set theory. Just because undead are former mortals doesn't mean all former mortals are undead. Also, undeath is a form of immortality, that doesn't mean all immortality is undeath.

[bubbadubba]

SO basicly you see the twisting nether in Warcraft as the matrix is that correct?

I am just going off how blizzard explained it. WoWpedia has this information as well based off blizzard explaining it.

So it isn't how I see it, it is how blizzard did. Though it does sound like a similar concept to the matrix on how the whole thing works.

[Ooid]

Something I can see them doing as a middle ground is having us fight Archimonde like we fought Socrethar. His soul would be disconnected from his body and we fight that. We could also fight a husk of Archimonde similar to a boss upcoming in the Tomb of Sargeras. Or Blizzard could just be like "nah fight him again and do it right nerds."

[Cheapnecrolyte]

To old age.

So chronomantic magic pushes every living thing toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion?

This is true per WoG.

It's not true because undeath is a form of immortality as you've stated yourself.

This is true per WoG.

It's not true because, ultimately, you've claimed that immortals are living beings that can die. And if immortals are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

There is nothing to argue on these points. They are facts of the Warcraft universe. You have not provided anything to disprove the WoG on these points.

“Anything that can be killed is mortal.” - Magtheridon

Excerpt From: King, William. “Illidan: World of Warcraft.” Del Rey, 2016-04-12. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

Immortals that can die are no different from mortals who cheat death. Straight from the demon Magtheridon's mouth: Anything that can be killed is mortal. If Maghteridon can be killed, he - or it - is mortal.

And you fail to elaborate on your statement. WTF does "cheat death" mean? Mortals have sought to obtain immortality.

Actually, I didn't. You're just playing "too dumb to understand simple concepts." Mortals are living beings. If demons are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals (living beings) who cheat death.

Negation of one component doesn't mean negation of the whole. Just because immortals don't die to old age like mortals, doesn't mean immortals are not alive.

What you're implying, and ultimately claiming, here is that demons transcend, or are outside of, time and are therefore unaffected by time. And if demons are from an astral coalition of unstable energies that trascends all realities, demons are not from reality or a place that is real. Demons are unreal if they are from an astral dimension that transcends all realities and you seem to be an idiot who is incapable of understanding that. But that's okay, I'll entertain you.

Don't throw your literal definition of immortal into the Warcraft universe.

You shouldn't tell me what to do.

You can't even keep the literal definition of immortal straight.

You've got it twisted. You can't even keep the literal definition of immortal straight.

Mortals are living beings that die to old age.

They can also die to death in the form of necromantic magic. They can also die to a sword to the heart. And they can die to fel energy blowing them up.

The fact that some mortals die to age is irrelevant here. Mortals, to simply put it, are living beings that die.

Immortals are living beings that don't die to old age.

Really? So the Lich King and his death knights are living beings? After all, you stated immortals are living beings. What? Are you now going to claim that only some immortals are living beings?

You need a lesson in set theory.

I don't need a lesson in set theory. You do.

All oranges are fruits, not all fruits are oranges.

Just because undead are former mortals doesn't mean all former mortals are undead.

The very reason why undead are described as former mortals is because former mortals can die and can become dead and undead. If demons are immortals, they can't become undead (former mortals). So why did you claim demons can become undead? Maybe because you're not smart enough to realize that beings that are not living (demons) can't really die?

undeath is a form of immortality, that doesn't mean all immortality is undeath.

Immortality is immortality. If the aberrations known as liches are immortals who have their souls tethered to something or someone, YOU need to explain how demons aren't liches or undead even though they're aberrations with chaotic energies that can remake beings in the Nether as skeletal liches and have their souls tethered to the Nether. What you need to do is explain how the demons' immortality is different from the liches' immortality and since you're clearly incapable of dealing with the implication of your asinine claims, you should kick rocks. You can't make me believe that your nonsense actually makes sense.

[Nathreim]

Blizz hasn't decided yet.

[Aquamonkey]

It's not true because undeath is a form of immortality as you've stated yourself.

And undead can die.

It's not true because, ultimately, you've claimed that immortals are living beings that can die. And if immortals are living beings that can die, they're no different from mortals who cheat death.

I haven't claimed that immortals are living beings that can die, Blizzard explicitly stated this to be true.

Actually, I didn't. You're just playing "too dumb to understand simple concepts." Mortals are living beings. If demons are living beings, they're no different from mortals (living beings) who cheat death.

Again you fail to clarify what "cheat death" means. It's such an ambiguous phrase. Did they literally go to hell and cheat death in a game of battleship? Did they use magic to prolong their lives. Did they use magic to make themselves never age? Did they get resurrected and come back from the dead? Did they download their consciousness into a computer?

So chronomantic magic pushes every living thing toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion?

No. That is necromantic magic. This is stated in Chronicle.

What you're implying and ultimately claiming here is that demons transcend, or outside of, time and are therefore unaffected by time. If demons can be affected by time, they can age. No excuses.

Demons don't transcend time. They are affected by time because they live in linear time. They experience past, present, and future. The difference between an immortal and a mortal is that an immortal's body does not deteriorate with the passage of time. Their bodies still function within the confines of time, they heal injuries and grow into adulthood. If you used chronomantic magic to speed up time around an immortal, their bodies would still not deteriorate.

You shouldn't tell me what to do.

Blizzard defined what immortality is. It's not the literal definition of immortality. You have a problem understanding the difference between real-world definitions and ones in fictional universes. If you want to discuss how they differ, that's fine. You are presenting an definition irrelevant to the Warcraft universe.

You've got it twisted. You can't even keep the literal definition of immortal straight.

The root "mortal" comes from latin meaning "subject to death." Immortal adds a negation, meaning "not subject to death." They are still living beings, they just don't die.

They can also die to death in the form of necromantic magic. They can also die to a sword to the heart. And they can die to fel energy blowing them up.

The fact that some mortals die to age is irrelevant here. Mortals, to simply put it, are living beings that die.

Dying to age is the distinguishing characteristic. Mortals and immortals can die from swords, fel, and various other methods.

Really? So the Lich King and his death knights are living beings? After all, you started immortals are living beings. What? Are you now going to claim that only some immortals are living beings?

They are alive; just not fully. The biological functions of their bodies are stunted, but they still move around and perform actions.

I don't need a lesson in set theory. You do.

All oranges are fruits, not all fruits are oranges.[/quote]
And yet you constantly fail to use it correctly when talking about Warcraft.

The very reason why undead are described as former mortals is because former mortals can die and can become dead. If demons are immortals, they can't become undead (former mortals).

I already said you had a point with Mannoroth. Despite him being declared an undead demon, I will take the generalization in Chronicle at face value since it is newer.

Immortality is immortality. If the aberrations known as liches are immortals who have their souls tethered to something or someone, YOU need to explain how demons aren't liches or undead even though their aberrations with chaotic energies that can remake beings in the Nether as skeletal and have their souls tethered to the Nether. What you need to do is explain how demons' immortality is different from the liches' immortality and since you're clearly incapable of dealing with the implication of your asinine claims, you should kick rocks. You can't make me believe that your nonsense actually makes sense.

Undead are beings that are brought back to life, but their bodies aren't restored to full living order and their souls are not properly bound. Liches are spirits bound to something other than their actual bodies and the bodies they generate are not fully functional. Demons aren't undead because they fully regenerate their bodies. Medivh wasn't undead because he was restored to full living order.

Demon souls are tethered to the Twisting Nether, yes. Mortal souls are tethered to the Shadowlands. Ancients have their souls tethered to the Emerald Dream. Different creatures have different places their souls go when they die.

This is a nice comparison. Those places do act like a lich's phylactery. The difference though is that undead are trapped between life and death. Demons and Ancients and even certain mortals get fully living bodies.