A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[rosebull]

Honestly anyone who thinks engineers = tinkers have clearly not played an RPG featuring an actual tinker, much less the WoW Version of a tinker from WC3.

Let me know when I can perform a full rotation as DPS using engineering gadgets, or turn into a giant mech, or summon a bunch of robots, or fire a giant laser from my back.

Tinkers are NOT engineers at all. Just like Demon Hunters werent f'n Demonology locks at all.

[Teriz]

Yes, and no. First off, the reason those abilities were added at such low speeds is because Blizzard doesn't want it replacing actual mounts, unlike how it works for the Druid, where travel forms do replace mounts and are intended to do so.

Do you have a source for that assertion?

Further, if you have a class that is utilizing mechs, it seems rather odd that they would be using mounts instead of simply using their mechs to get around. Giving a mech class their own mounts simply makes sense from both a lore and a gameplay perspective.

Not in gameplay terms. It would still be a character replacing mounts in lieu of a class ability that gives the character a "different form" to travel in.

In gameplay terms people recognize the difference between a bird and a mech flying around. People who prefer transforming into animals are going to keep playing druids. People who think its awesome to pilot a robot into battle would choose the mech class. The two simply don't overlap with each other outside of function.

It's like Paladins and Death Knights, both are magical warriors with their own special mounts, however some people prefer to be a holy knight and bringer of justice, others prefer to be a harbinger of death and raise the dead. Similar function, but the themes are so vastly different that it doesn't matter. Nature vs. Technology are just as opposite from each other as Holy vs. Unholy.

Make them unique and interesting on their own, not because they're copy-pasting from other classes. It's like you're admitting the class isn't interesting on its own and has to copy what other, more interesting classes, can do.

I'm simply using existing gameplay mechanics to argue for this class' feasibility. I'm also pointing out that borrowing popular stuff from existing classes is a good way for this class to become popular.

There's no point in inventing new gameplay mechanics that have zero chance of being incorporated. Obviously Blizzard would be fully capable of creating new gameplay mechanics if this class was introduced since the theme itself is pretty wide open.

[Ielenia]

Further, if you have a class that is utilizing mechs, it seems rather odd that they would be using mounts instead of simply using their mechs to get around.

On that same token, it seems rather odd that, despite taming and training so many different beasts, Hunters can't ride any of those beasts. It seems rather odd that, despite having a lot of magic at their fingertips, Mages cannot travel using magic.

In gameplay terms people recognize the difference between a bird and a mech flying around. People who prefer transforming into animals are going to keep playing druids. People who think its awesome to pilot a robot into battle would choose the mech class. The two simply don't overlap with each other outside of function.

So, at first it was a 'tech class', now you want a 'mech class'? You do know that, even if Blizzard ever implements a tech class, it's not guaranteed it'd have a mech at all, right? Other than that, that "overlap with function" looks pretty glaring, to me.

Also, FYI, my monk pilots a mech into battle, btw.

I'm simply using existing gameplay mechanics to argue for this class' feasibility. I'm also pointing out that borrowing popular stuff from existing classes is a good way for this class to become popular.

You're not just "borrowing", you're literally copy-pasting and putting a tech 'coat of paint' over it, because you don't put a single effort making it any different from the original you copying from other than saying "well, one is tech, other is beast" as if it mattered anything. The way you're so blatantly ripping off other classes to make the tech class interesting really puts into question if a tech class is "interesting" to begin with, if it cannot stand on its own.

There's no point in inventing new gameplay mechanics that have zero chance of being incorporated.

You could at least put a little effort into making your tech class idea less of a 'druid with tech skin' and more of an unique idea, y'know?

[Teriz]

On that same token, it seems rather odd that, despite taming and training so many different beasts, Hunters can't ride any of those beasts.

There's really no need to, since there's several beast mounts in the game.

It seems rather odd that, despite having a lot of magic at their fingertips, Mages cannot travel using magic.

They can create portals and teleport to various points around the world and beyond. That's not a form of travel?

So, at first it was a 'tech class', now you want a 'mech class'? You do know that, even if Blizzard ever implements a tech class, it's not guaranteed it'd have a mech at all, right? Other than that, that "overlap with function" looks pretty glaring, to me.

Mech is a form of technology, and a mech class is a version of a tech class. I'm also well aware that if Blizzard implements a tech class, there's a chance it wouldn't be mech based. However, in numerous appearances, Gnomes and Goblins have appeared in some form of mech, indicating that it's a fairly standard thing in both Gnome and Goblin races. The tinker heroes from WC3 and HotS also both pilot mechs.

Also, unlike other forms of tech in WoW, the mechs tend to not look silly and goofy, and are generally well-received.

Also, FYI, my monk pilots a mech into battle, btw.

Sure, but your monk isn't fighting while inside the mech.

You're not just "borrowing", you're literally copy-pasting and putting a tech 'coat of paint' over it, because you don't put a single effort making it any different from the original you copying from other than saying "well, one is tech, other is beast" as if it mattered anything. The way you're so blatantly ripping off other classes to make the tech class interesting really puts into question if a tech class is "interesting" to begin with, if it cannot stand on its own.

I'm doing it this way so there's no way people like you can sit back and say "they'd never do this or that". By using mechanisms already present in the game, we avoid that senseless discussion and simply discuss the merits of the class itself.

You could at least put a little effort into making your tech class idea less of a 'druid with tech skin' and more of an unique idea, y'know?

The only thing I'm borrowing from the Druid class is changing into a permanent form for tanking and the class having multiple innate travel forms. Additionally, we're only talking about one form. Druids have about 10.

Btw, the DPS idea being tossed around is nothing like Druids.

[Ielenia]

There's really no need to, since there's several beast mounts in the game.

Yeah, which they have to buy. That's the exact same case of your tech class buying a mech to travel on, instead of making one himself.

They can create portals and teleport to various points around the world and beyond. That's not a form of travel?

Only to specific places, with no chance of stopping in the middle if they see something interesting.

I'm doing it this way so there's no way people like you can sit back and say "they'd never do this or that".

Isn't that exactly what is going on? "People like me sitting back and saying 'they'd never do this or that''? I'm doing this precisely because you're ripping off a an existing class' uniqueness without giving it its own unique spin. That coming from the guy who complains that DH and BrM tanking share the same "soul fragment/chi orb" mechanic, despite the differences the two classes have.

[bloodmoth13]

No, no. What does it do? What abilities? Name stuff that the engineer doesn't have.

Lol easy:

GAMEPLAY

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Blizzard will never make an expansion about goblins/gnomes or tinkers for one simple reason: its 2 of the least played races in the games=they are not appealing to the bigger audience. Its simple. Also people want to play warriors,rogues,mages or hunters,all classes they can understand and feel related with. I think we are in a time of gaming where mechs just lost their hype,every1 is focused on medival fantasy (I might be wrong here its just my point of view).

You dont need an expansion that is dedicated to them to bring in a tinker, it could EASILY just be a regular class that you train up from level 1.

All you need is those throw away races to step out of the shadows and be useful.

Also tinker doesnt need to be, and shouldnt be, restricted to gnomes and goblins. Undead have strong technology, same as blood elves, arguably draenie have some of the best tech in game, iron horde had advanced tech that orcs could adopt etc etc, Id restrict night elves, trolls, tauren, pandaren and others from the class, but there are alot of races with potential, it could perhaps be a preparation expansion for an invasion of another planet, or rather than gnomes and goblins being a focus it could just be the tech itself.

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1)Tinker Class could easily take in aspects from both the Goblin Tinker and Goblin Alchemist from WIII, depending on its specs




2) That's like saying "We don't need Warriors, Mages can already use swords!".
Or "We don't need Demon Hunters, rogues can already use glaives!".

Also, doesn't help your argument very much that you say we don't need Tinkers because we already have Survival, and then procee on saying Survival is not matching its own theme, because then the obvious solution is survival will be changed and be even further apart form Tinker.

Sirvival might have some tinker-like abilities, but technology is not what the spec is about. Remember: Blizzard was fine reformulating Demonology and taking abilities from other classes to make room for Demon Hunter, a class that conflicts greatly with 2 or 3 other classes (Warlocks and Rogues, Monks to some extent).

1) Agree. Personally id love to see an apothecary spec for the tinker class that heals using potions and gadgets, would be a great thematic healing spec for less spiritual races like undead, gnomes and goblins.

2) Indeed. Engineering is a profession designed to get money, it doesnt affect how you fight (beyond an enchant and a usable item once every 3 minutes)

Survival should probably have its bombs and explosives revoked, it would make more sense to have nature themed spells rather than tech spells.

Im surprised that they added in demon hunters TBH, they did a good job with it atleast, but the fact that they could only develop 2 specs for it is telling. A tinker you could easily make 4+ possible specs! Technology is like its entire own school of magic that hasnt been explored yet

[Thimagryn]

I think you are confusing gameplay with Lore. Most NPC gnome engineers are inventors, so it stands to reason that we too are inventors. Trainers and schematics are needed for gameplay, not for Lore.

Gameplay is the only real reason for any difference. I'm fine with the definition of Engineers overlapping with that of a Tech class. A profession and a class isn't the same thing, even if they are able to carry out similar functions.

[FelPlague]

Lol easy:

GAMEPLAY

uhh incorrect, engineers do have tons of gameplay, one, playing the profession, and 2, its allmost like you could play a game, called blingtrons circut... so playing a game... gameplay?

[Thimagryn]

Make them unique and interesting on their own, not because they're copy-pasting from other classes. It's like you're admitting the class isn't interesting on its own and has to copy what other, more interesting classes, can do.

I don't see what the issue is. Even Demon Hunters have the same ability that Warlocks had up till this expansion. Shamans even turn into animals and encroach on the Druid theme. Yet no one in this game can fight in a Mech suit. How anyone can confuse that with any other class is beyond reason.

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uhh incorrect, engineers do have tons of gameplay, one, playing the profession, and 2, its allmost like you could play a game, called blingtrons circut... so playing a game... gameplay?

In context of the topic: Class-based gameplay. That's what an Engineer would lack in comparison to a Tech class. Throwing bombs and bringing out a mech whelpling isn't enough to withhold a completely new class with its own mechanics and gameplay.

Overlapping theme is completely irrelevant, otherwise Demon hunters would've been just a 4th spec for Warlocks since they both turn into demons and use fel magic. The differences are what make a class unique, not its similarities to anything else.

[Shammyrock]

Seems like the Tinker has an engineering based spec and an alchemy/first aid based spec so far. Fishing tank spec?

[Ielenia]

I don't see what the issue is. Even Demon Hunters have the same ability that Warlocks had up till this expansion.

It was already established ICly that Warlocks copied said ability from Demon Hunters, so it was already established that said ability belonged to Demon Hunters from the get-go.

Shamans even turn into animals and encroach on the Druid theme.

Shamans use Ghost Wolf to move around in tight places and during combat (i.e., where mounts are not allowed), but you'll never see a shaman fighting while always in ghost wolf form, or replacing a mount for its ghost wolf form.

Yet no one in this game can fight in a Mech suit. How anyone can confuse that with any other class is beyond reason.

"Fighting using different forms" is kind of the druid's shtick, isn't it?

[Teriz]

Yeah, which they have to buy. That's the exact same case of your tech class buying a mech to travel on, instead of making one himself.

Not really. People tend to not ride around on their pets. However if you're piloting a mech in combat, it stands to reason that said pilot would also use that mech to travel in.

Only to specific places, with no chance of stopping in the middle if they see something interesting.

Which is still traveling via magic, something you implied that mages couldn't do.

Isn't that exactly what is going on? "People like me sitting back and saying 'they'd never do this or that''? I'm doing this precisely because you're ripping off a an existing class' uniqueness without giving it its own unique spin. That coming from the guy who complains that DH and BrM tanking share the same "soul fragment/chi orb" mechanic, despite the differences the two classes have.

Unlike DHs, I seriously doubt that an existing class' spec would need to be removed to implement Tinkers into the game.

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"Fighting using different forms" is kind of the druid's shtick, isn't it?

Are you forgetting that Demon Hunters also fight in different forms? Are you trying to argue that Demon Hunters also encroach on Druid territory?

[Ielenia]

Not really. People tend to not ride around on their pets.

That... is just nonsense. We ride animals all the time. There is no reason a class that can tame pets as big as dinosaurs cannot train one to bear him around, like a trusty steed.

Which is still traveling via magic, something you implied that mages couldn't do.

You are being quite obtuse on purpose. You know full well I mean traveling around, as in, moving around, not teleporting around.

Unlike DHs, I seriously doubt that an existing class' spec would need to be removed to implement Tinkers into the game.

One: no spec was removed. One was just reworked back to what it originally was; Two: you seem 'ok' with having double-standards, as you harp on the DH for having a similar mechanic as the Brewmaster Monk, but have no problems at all copy-pasting abilities from other classes without giving them any distinction whatsoever other than a simple coat of paint.

Are you forgetting that Demon Hunters also fight in different forms? Are you trying to argue that Demon Hunters also encroach on Druid territory?

Nope, because the Demon Hunters' alternate forms are not maintained throughout the entire fight, and outside of fights, too.

[Teriz]

That... is just nonsense. We ride animals all the time.

I have yet to see anyone ride around on the back of their dog or cat. Have you?

You are being quite obtuse on purpose. You know full well I mean traveling around, as in, moving around, not teleporting around.

So teleporting from Stormwind to Ironforge isn't "moving"? LoL!

Teleportation is a form of movement, hence why "portation" is in the word.

One: no spec was removed. One was just reworked back to what it originally was; Two: you seem 'ok' with having double-standards, as you harp on the DH for having a similar mechanic as the Brewmaster Monk, but have no problems at all copy-pasting abilities from other classes without giving them any distinction whatsoever other than a simple coat of paint.

1. Fine, no spec will need to be "reworked" in order to bring Tinkers into the game.
2. Please feel free to list the Druid abilities I'm copy-pasting to the hypothetical Tinker class.

Nope, because the Demon Hunters' alternate forms are not maintained throughout the entire fight, and outside of fights, too.

Ah, so now it's not about simply changing into different forms, it's about the firm being permanent.

Keep moving those goalposts.

[Thimagryn]

Shamans use Ghost Wolf to move around in tight places and during combat (i.e., where mounts are not allowed), but you'll never see a shaman fighting while always in ghost wolf form, or replacing a mount for its ghost wolf form.

Which is the same as Engineering, where none of the mecha they make is for combat use? I could say you'll never see an Engineer fighting while in a mech suit just the same. You're switching to gameplay reasonings to answer what you originally posed as a lore-based conflict. There's no lore reasoning that says a Shaman couldn't fight any worse than a Druid while in ghost wolf form.

And no, Fighting in Forms is something multiple classes can do. Shamans have Ascendancy, Priests have Shadow Form, Demon Hunters have Metamorphosis, the list goes on. Even Worgen have it as a racial ability! Out of all those examples, I think climbing into a mech suit is the least similar to a Shapeshifting ability.

[Ielenia]

I have yet to see anyone ride around on the back of their dog or cat. Have you?

I'm talking about in-game. The Hunter class can tame beasts large enough to be mounts, like raptors, nightsabers, wolves, etc.

So teleporting from Stormwind to Ironforge isn't "moving"? LoL!

Teleportation is a form of movement, hence why "portation" is in the word.

Please don't play dumb. You know exactly what kind of transportation I'm talking about here.

2. Please feel free to list the Druid abilities I'm copy-pasting to the hypothetical Tinker class.

There is the 'fight all the time in a mech suit' which is a blatant copy of how druids stay (almos) all the time in their shape-shifted forms, in and out of combat; travel forms for air, water and land.

Ah, so now it's not about simply changing into different forms, it's about the firm being permanent.

Keep moving those goalposts.

Goalposts were never moved. The issue has always been about them encroaching on druid territory by fighting all the time in a mech, way too similar how druids fight in an alternate form the entire fights.

[Deleted]

Well we've seen alot of abilities been taken or copied from existing classes to give them to a newer one, so the argument of overlaping abilities/profs with existing ones is not valid.
i have no opinion on the subject, doesn't matter to me which class they add or not.

[bloodmoth13]

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

Why? currenlty it offers utility junk, or basically tech based devices that mimic other classes spells, and creates guns (and bows?) along with a few enchantments.

A class wouldnt be creating guns to sell on the AH now would it?

We also need more classes to use ranged weapons, since currently its ONLY hunters, which sucks.

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uhh incorrect, engineers do have tons of gameplay, one, playing the profession, and 2, its allmost like you could play a game, called blingtrons circut... so playing a game... gameplay?

oh i stand corrected, engineers can create a toy which means that its the equivalent of a fully fledged class. You kidding?

Engineers do practically nothing to the way you play the game for the most part, i want a real tech based class that uses technology for the majority of what it does, engineering most certainly does not fulfill that desire

[Teriz]

I'm talking about in-game. The Hunter class can tame beasts large enough to be mounts, like raptors, nightsabers, wolves, etc.

And like I said, people tend to not ride their pets.

Please don't play dumb. You know exactly what kind of transportation I'm talking about here.

You said that mages had no form of magical transportation. Opening up portals and Teleporting from one point to another is a form of transportation.

There is the 'fight all the time in a mech suit' which is a blatant copy of how druids stay (almos) all the time in their shape-shifted forms, in and out of combat; travel forms for air, water and land.

Goalposts were never moved. The issue has always been about them encroaching on druid territory by fighting all the time in a mech, way too similar how druids fight in an alternate form the entire fights.

Except it's not Druid territory. Druid territory is shape shifting into animals and creatures of the wild, and being jacks of all trades. Giving a tech class a a few travel modes isn't going encroach on any of that. The only thing it will do is give another class a few popular perks that the Druid class enjoys. If the goal is to make this class popular, I don't see the problem.

I seriously doubt any Druid players would either.

[FelPlague]

Why? currenlty it offers utility junk, or basically tech based devices that mimic other classes spells, and creates guns (and bows?) along with a few enchantments.

A class wouldnt be creating guns to sell on the AH now would it?

We also need more classes to use ranged weapons, since currently its ONLY hunters, which sucks.

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oh i stand corrected, engineers can create a toy which means that its the equivalent of a fully fledged class. You kidding?

Engineers do practically nothing to the way you play the game for the most part, i want a real tech based class that uses technology for the majority of what it does, engineering most certainly does not fulfill that desire

Grenade throwing
slow fall
speed boosts
bandage gun healing
turret placing
rocket pack flying
double jump
mech suit they can use to fight stuff
teleportation
location swapping
loot grabbing
bullet firing from your head
able to place explosive pets, and dummies to direct attention

i would call that all things that make a class :P
oh guess what, all of those are from engineering
but yeah enginner/=/tinkerer, but it would def make it feel akward is tinkerers were not forced to be engineers..