Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[socialmaker]

I think the problem Legion content tuning is going to face is the power creep in the player base due to how gearing works.

In the past EN would have been the entry level raid where you could go in with heroic gear and some crafted stuff and take down on a heroic level. Or at least clear on normal and then start on heroic depending on guild skill level. But EN people were going in at 850-860 on the first day and the gear you were rewarded was 865 in heroic.

(I am excluding mythic raids from the example but its there if you want to math it out yourself).

Again, in the past your heavily grinding / lucky players would have been around 855-865 by the time Trails opened. But in Legion that number is already 880-890 and with multiple legendaries. So to not make Trails a total push over they had to tune that content expecting even average raid teams to have several if not many or even all players in that range of gear. So people following a traditional gearing and progression path are being left behind and in a much weaker state than in the past.

This will likely continue fort he whole life span of Legion.

So to really progress in content in Legion it is going to take a lot of content grinding which at this point shouldn't be a total shock to any one that has been playing this game or fallowing it closely.

Can't say it better. They had to up up up the difficulty because of titanforged + legendaries so it doesn't feel like it's a pushover.

[Deleted]

My casual 2-night a week guild just killed Helya HC last night after 37 attempts. We raid only heroic (by choice), so we weren't overgearing the encounter by an obscene amount. The nerf to adds in P2 helped us quite a lot to reach P3 consistently (only one out of 11 wipes last night was in P2) though I'm a bit sad we haven't killed her before the nerf.

In retrospect, I feel HC ToV wasn't overtuned in terms of challenge presented, but the rewards could have definitely been better.

[celinamuna]

I like how 2 expansions later Injin is still complaining about how raids are overtuned.

[Deleted]

I like how 2 expansions later Injin is still complaining about how raids are overtuned.

I praised EN because of how well balanced it was.

[Kirbypro]

My casual 2-night a week guild just killed Helya HC last night after 37 attempts. We raid only heroic (by choice), so we weren't overgearing the encounter by an obscene amount. The nerf to adds in P2 helped us quite a lot to reach P3 consistently (only one out of 11 wipes last night was in P2) though I'm a bit sad we haven't killed her before the nerf.

In retrospect, I feel HC ToV wasn't overtuned in terms of challenge presented, but the rewards could have definitely been better.

Just killed H Heyla last night. P2 is now a joke. The overnerf to P2 will help a lot of guilds.

I feel like the health nerf was a bit much. The biggest problem was rot being hard to see and easily spread, it would have been better to decrease the number of people hit by rot but make it hit harder to compensate. Would have been better than complete trivializing p2.

[Deleted]

I feel like the health nerf was a bit much. SNIP Would have been better than complete trivializing p2.

I agree with you, although P3 presents a decent challenge as well, especially in coordinating raid movement for orbs. What makes me especially happy is we didn't have to sit anyone out (and we have a few dps who consistently parse in the 10%-20% range).

[dakalro]

This is anecdotal at best but my guild finally managed to kill Helya HC, the nerfs to the adds in P2 helped a lot. We are around 880 iLvl across the board. After experiencing the raid it occurs to me that doing the raid in the 865 gear from EN HC or even the gear that drops from ToV HC is pretty much impossible for your average guild. You need luck with RNG in the forms of titanforging, sockets and legendaries. I'm not sure how I feel about raid progress being determined this much based on luck.

But EN HC gear isn't 865, it's closer to 875 ragdoll ilvl (1 legendary, 865-870 every item and relics) and I think that's a LOW estimate with not much M+ thrown in.
EN seems tuned for a mix of Heroic/Mythic gear, ToV seems tuned so that it accounts for warforged/titanforged (real gear for most raids).

I do see a problem here ... guilds where people don't bother much with getting gear, which are at about 865 ilvl if some or most of their raid cleared EN HC (mix of 850 and 865 gear), they'll probably get stomped as 865 is probably just a bit above what ToV N was tuned for; some of these guilds may have just fallen through the cracks or Blizzard's brilliance.

Sure these guilds do have the gear to clear ToV but it requires a bit more effort than they're used to because they need to overgear the content a bit to complete it, but if you don't use all avenues of getting gear you can't overgear yet.

[DakonBlackblade]

mythic TOV is probably about the same difficulty than most other raids in prior expansions, if not slightly easier.

You sure havent raided much in previous expansions if you think this, mythic ToV is one if not the hardest raid ever release from a pure numbers standpoint. Guarm is ridiculous as it is one of the easiest fights in the planet mechanicaly but he needs gear you can't get anywhere in order for you to win, wich forces ppl to get 35 levels on theire artefacts or not progress at all. Every boss in ToV is tuned numeracaly like it was the last boss of a tier with the difference you can't actualy get gear to make anything easier anywhere.

It'll be hilarious when in 2 months, more or less, Nighthold releases and its easier than ToV even tough it drops better gear, and im pretty sure Nighthold will be easier as the raid is on PTR again (for the 3rd time) and every boss in there even with the secondaries nerf are way easier than anything in ToV.

[Soikona]

Mythic wise, I think Odyn just has too much health. The main difficulty is not falling asleep.

[Echocho]

You sure havent raided much in previous expansions if you think this, mythic ToV is one if not the hardest raid ever release fro a pute numbers standpoint. guarm is ridiculous as it is one of the easiest fights in the planet mechanicaly but he needs gear you can't get anywhere in other for you to win, wich forces ppl to get 35 levels on theire artefacts or not progress at all. Every boss in ToV is tuned numeracaly like it was the last boss of a tier with the difference you can't actualy get gear to make anything easier anywhere.

Well that's the problem isn't it. If you've cleared mythic EN every reset you should have the gear to do ToV mythic but that's not the case. You need to run insane amounts of mythic+ and every other difficulty of the raid for AP, legendaries, titanforging and sockets.
It creates a weird situation where the progression is no longer linear from one raid to another.

[DakonBlackblade]

Mythic wise, I think Odyn just has too much health. The main difficulty is not falling asleep.

One of the way Blizzard tries to make fihgts artificialy harder is to increase health pools, they talked about how they usualy tune the last boss in a tier as tigh as possibel then give him 5% extra HP to make it super hard. In ToV they pretty much aplied this to every encounter.

[Soikona]

One of the way Blizzard tries to make fihgts artificialy harder is to increase health pools, they talked about how they usualy tune the last boss in a tier as tigh as possibel then give him 5% extra HP to make it super hard. In ToV they pretty much aplied this to every encounter.

Makes sense. Blizz has never made a challenging mechanic. Only artificial difficulties like boredom!

[Deleted]

You mean...when people go into into a raid with little knowledge of the mechanics, and little coordination (pug), it's difficult?

Who'd'a thunk it.

Yeah, a raid that requires considerably higher ilvl than its own drops is not overtuned at all...

Also, the OP, like, totally said what you seem to deny. No wonder daddy's not coming back, he couldn't even start communicating with you.

Infracted - Djriff

[Normie]

I can understand that admitting to others and even to themselves that they aren't as good as they thought can be hard for many people. After all, this overestimating of ones ability and reluctance to admit that I'm not that good is the only reason games like poker can even exist.

The critical flaw in this thinking is the same as always. WoW players have a very wide range of skill, and they don't have the skill needed to defeat difficult organized encounters, and they don't want to go to great lengths to develop that skill. Yet, Blizzard considers raiding to be content that all players should attempt to be involved in. The game needs easy organized raiding. Sometimes normal fails to be that.

It's a failure of this game, which is more raid-centric than ever, when it doesn't provide accessibly easy organized raiding, not a case of "git gud."

[Tang0]

this game, which is more raid-centric than ever

Made me chuckle. The game is the LEAST raid-centric then it's ever been. Tons of people only run 5-mans. Legitimately progressing there. Oh, and world quests...

[Deleted]

Made me chuckle. The game is the LEAST raid-centric then it's ever been. Tons of people only run 5-mans. Legitimately progressing there. Oh, and world quests...

I just killed Helya in MoS for my weekly 12 chest. It took me 18 minutes and i received 87.6k AP.
In comparison, Mythic 20m Helya took me 300 attempts with 19 other people. This is the most challenging content in the game, and 3 weeks after release only 400 people in the world have beaten it. I was rewarded 43.8k AP for my success.

There is a lot of content in the game, which I'm not complaining about, but most of it is a middle finger to mythic raiders.

[KaPe]

I just killed Helya in MoS for my weekly 12 chest. It took me 18 minutes and i received 87.6k AP.
In comparison, Mythic 20m Helya took me 300 attempts with 19 other people. This is the most challenging content in the game, and 3 weeks after release only 400 people in the world have beaten it. I was rewarded 43.8k AP for my success.

There is a lot of content in the game, which I'm not complaining about, but most of it is a middle finger to mythic raiders.

Sigh, it's pretty easy to explain. In Maw of Souls, you do 30% of Helya's hitpoints with 5 people = 6% per person. In Trial of Valor, you do 100% with 20 = 5% per person. It's plain obvious that the first group did 20% more work, thus deserves 200% higher rewards.

Seriously though, it's amazing they didn't fix that yet. What's the worst that would happen, people would do couple less m+ dungeons for their AP grind? The horror.

[Meiffert]

they don't want to go to great lengths to develop that skill. Yet, Blizzard considers raiding to be content that all players should attempt to be involved in. The game needs easy organized raiding.

I understand your point, I don't think we exactly disagree.

I don't think that we need to "remove" another difficulty targeted at different players to achieve your goal though (by nerfing normal to LFR level).

I think that a better solution would be to enable entering LFR difficulty manually. That way you don't have to queue for it and can do it with only your friends/guildies at your own pace.
You could still queue as well, same way heroic dungeons work.

[Tang0]

I understand your point, I don't think we exactly disagree.

I don't think that we need to "remove" another difficulty targeted at different players to achieve your goal though (by nerfing normal to LFR level).

I think that a better solution would be to enable entering LFR difficulty manually. That way you don't have to queue for it and can do it with only your friends/guildies at your own pace.
You could still queue as well, same way heroic dungeons work.

Sounds great on paper, but in reality lfr being locked to 25 man means there'higher performance percentage. We see higher geared/skilled players queue lfr for legendaries/runes, thus boosting the raid performance, propelling the group forward and making the other people's experience more enjoyable. Well, unless they are elitist jerks.

If you allow people to manually enter lfr with smaller size raids a lot of those people will just make quick 10-man runs for their needs, thus starving the queueable version of adequate players, inflating queue times and overall nerfing the raid's performance which could lead to more wipes

[Deleted]

I just killed Helya in MoS for my weekly 12 chest. It took me 18 minutes and i received 87.6k AP.
In comparison, Mythic 20m Helya took me 300 attempts with 19 other people. This is the most challenging content in the game, and 3 weeks after release only 400 people in the world have beaten it. I was rewarded 43.8k AP for my success.

There is a lot of content in the game, which I'm not complaining about, but most of it is a middle finger to mythic raiders.

For your efforts you are rewarded with a loot table with a higher base ilevel that any mythic +10 can reward (at base level). The efforts might not justify the reward for one reset but in weeks to come the rewards for yourself and your guild should far outweigh what mythic +12 can offer just by itself. If the ilevel were any lower there maybe an argument for foregoing Mythic Helya entirely.