[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Kyanion]

They already did some changes, what makes you think we are getting more? Just curious.

Well because PTR is still being updated and the legendary helm fix went in just yesterday for example.

[Killuha]

Not the way you like != not the correct way. Seems quite likely this was how it was meant to work in the first place, and they went to far with the lag tolerance.

Doesn't change the fact that many people like the gameplay, even if unintended. It's certainly a lot more interesting than dumping 3 starsurges in succession.

They already did some changes, what makes you think we are getting more? Just curious.

What in my statement makes you think that I think we are getting more changes? I sure hope we do, but its by no means guaranteed.

I just wanted to clarify that celestelon stated, in his interview with sloot at blizzcon, that they thought that moonkin gameplay was solid and to only expect number tweaks.

[Praxis-bt]

Not the way you like != not the correct way. Seems quite likely this was how it was meant to work in the first place, and they went to far with the lag tolerance.

If it wasn't intended why wasn't it hotfixed in beta when we all started using it this way?

I could care less about the numbers, the playstyle is one of the few things keeping me engaged in the spec. to remove any form of pre-planning and stakes from the rotation feels bad regardless of the damage difference.

[Krazzorx]

Blasting the only thing that made Boomkins barely comparable to other classes into oblivion, and not likely buffing to compensate it at all.

Yup, basic Blizzard doing balance changes. Better get that pillow ready, since that Nighthold Bench sure is gonna need it.

Except that not every boomkin could have it. So blast away. Now boomkins are more balanced with themselves and you don't feel so bad for not having it.

[bubbadubba]

Thank you very much.

I just wanted to add a bit to his comment.

Vers gets more valuable with more ilvl. Basically more of the other secondary stats makes Vers higher value. It isn't straight garbage, you will want some Vers at higher item levels.

crit/mastery- We get extra crit in our artifact tree for lunar strike and starsurge. If you have all three relics as one of those two traits, it devalues crit (only slightly). If you get three starsurge relics, it would boost masterys value, though still not by much. I know they are not giant changes in value but do be aware of these things, even in a casual setting.

[Mewncriket]

Except that not every boomkin could have it. So blast away. Now boomkins are more balanced with themselves and you don't feel so bad for not having it.

Sounds like your salty that you didn't get one. You are failing to understand the real problem.

[huth]

Sounds like your salty that you didn't get one. You are failing to understand the real problem.

No, he just described the real problem. Being reliant on low chance RNG just to be decent at your spec is bad design. If that low chance is also the only part making the spec fun, that's two strokes.

This may be unfun for those that have ED, but it is necessary for the health of the game.

[Littleseb]

Until we can choose our legendaries I'm ok with the ED nerf.

[Deleted]

For anybody claiming that nerfing ED is good for balance: You missed the point, and you're wrong.

First, this change kills what most people have found to be the most enjoyable playstyle we have(yes, requiring a legendary for it is not cool, it should've been a talent).

Now here is the big deal. ED was NOT that good. It was the best single target, correct. However, it was only good for that. For any kind of multi target, IFE was king. Instead, IFE will not be king for EVERYTHING.
What does that mean?
Before, if you didn't have ED, IFE still performed nearly as well single target, and you could still perform well on multi target because both IFE and OI was better for that.
Now, if you don't have IFE, you're royally fucked. Nothing can touch in on single target, and only OI gets even remotely close on AoE.

In other words, there where multiple viable legendaries before, now you have ONLY ONE.

[Hellshout]

Instead, IFE will now be king for EVERYTHING.

now? 10char

[Deleted]

start crying

It helped for Mages


oh wait nobody at blizzard plays Moonkin.. ah Damn too bad

[Lahis]

Except that not every boomkin could have it. So blast away. Now boomkins are more balanced with themselves and you don't feel so bad for not having it.

I don't even have ED and I think this change sucks.

The spec shouldn't depent on having two BiS legendaries to do mediocore DPS, but that's the world we live in and I don't have faith in Blizzard that they can properly fix the tuning.

[MV Kaa]

I don't even have ED and I think this change sucks.

The spec shouldn't depent on having two BiS legendaries to do mediocore DPS, but that's the world we live in and I don't have faith in Blizzard that they can properly fix the tuning.

People say this about Boomkins all the time but forget about it when it comes to other classes

[Myztikrice]

For anybody claiming that nerfing ED is good for balance: You missed the point, and you're wrong.

First, this change kills what most people have found to be the most enjoyable playstyle we have(yes, requiring a legendary for it is not cool, it should've been a talent).

Now here is the big deal. ED was NOT that good. It was the best single target, correct. However, it was only good for that. For any kind of multi target, IFE was king. Instead, IFE will not be king for EVERYTHING.
What does that mean?
Before, if you didn't have ED, IFE still performed nearly as well single target, and you could still perform well on multi target because both IFE and OI was better for that.
Now, if you don't have IFE, you're royally fucked. Nothing can touch in on single target, and only OI gets even remotely close on AoE.

In other words, there where multiple viable legendaries before, now you have ONLY ONE.

I would think you of all people would recognize that this is not the final change to Druids before everything goes live, and not go on to make blanket statements like 'most people found ED to be the most enjoyable playstyle' and 'your opinions are wrong.' Strange post from Gebuz.

[Deleted]

I would think you of all people would recognize that this is not the final change to Druids before everything goes live, and not go on to make blanket statements like 'most people found ED to be the most enjoyable playstyle' and 'your opinions are wrong.' Strange post from Gebuz.

'I would think you of all people would recognize that this is not the final change to Druids before everything goes live' - I thought that goes without saying. I do not care about our damage numbers on PTR since they obviously still haven't done any tuning, I am talking purely about the relative power between the legendaries.

'most people found ED to be the most enjoyable playstyle' - This is, from what I have heard the case. It might be slightly skewed by the fact that I tend to talk more to the elite of the game. However, I have never heard anybody saying that they do not enjoy the ED playstyle, and I get plenty of questions from people trying to learn to the rotation about how they could perform it better, which would indicate thay they like it.

'your opinions are wrong.' - Your opinions are fine, but if you say that 1=2 is true, it is not an opinion, it is objectively false. In this case, nerfing ED is not helpful for the balance of legendaries, it will make it so getting that one legendary is even more important than before. Thus, it is objectively false to claim that nerfing ED alone helps the legendary balance. If IFE was nerfed too, sure it would help. It might be good for you personally if you do not have ED (and this is your personal opinion, which is fine, you'll just find that most people disagree, even if they do not have ED themselves), but it does not apply to the balance of our legendaries.

- - - Updated - - -

And I should probably add this before people start with the "Omg it's just because u don't want the leg you have to get nerfed". If I had to choose between ED and IFE, and I could only have one, I'd pick IFE in a heartbeat.

I would be perfectly fine with ED and IFE being brought down closer to the other legendaries, but with only ED getting nerfed, IFE is simply way too strong compared to the alternatives. And I simply do not agree with this way of nerfing ED, there are plenty of other ways to do it that would not ruin the playstyle.

[Irefusetodie]

And I simply do not agree with this way of nerfing ED, there are plenty of other ways to do it that would not ruin the playstyle.

According to Cyous in the Discord, 3 second ED is not coming back. Apparently Blizzard has a severe disdain for weaving spells into the ED rotation. This nerf was moreso about weaving than balance issues. If it was nerfed solely on balance issues, they would've just reduced the AsP reduction down to 10 instead of 20.

[MV Kaa]

According to Cyous in the Discord, 3 second ED is not coming back. Apparently Blizzard has a severe disdain for weaving spells into the ED rotation. This nerf was moreso about weaving than balance issues. If it was nerfed solely on balance issues, they would've just reduced the AsP reduction down to 10 instead of 20.

Right. And this is also good because now we wont be focused around haste breakpoints anymore.

[thedeisel]

people pretending like ED wasn't an absolutely massive increase over IFE single target are bananas. Never lucky enough to get one myself on live but tested it plenty on most recent PTR before nerfs. The easy, straightforward increase was way bigger than I got when I got my IFE. On top of that it led to degenerate play (wasting Lunar Empowerments), a highly latency sensitive playstyle (a general nono for blizz), and hard haste break points (another nono for blizz). Ultimately, the reasons to change ED were absolutely not only balance related. IFE by contrasts is a benefit you get more out of by playing moonkin well. Generate more AP = get more CD reduction.

That's not to say that IFE is now balanced or anything like that (though it's better balanced relative to the rest than ED was). But do note that IFE is relatively weaker in 7.1.5 to both non legendary Moonkin and Oneth's intuition moonkin due to changes to Stellar Drift and Stellar Flare. Relatively weakening Incarnation is relatively weakening the ring.

Last, I have very little sympathy with those lamenting play stale. Dreamweaving and FoE based playstyle are very very similar. Especially now that you don't even have to target FoE with the new way to write macros for reticle abilities. Pool your AP, plan your moons, and unload as best as possible by maxing hard casts during your burn. And given the buffs to FoE and FoN, if you're heavy haste/crit and relatively light mastery, FoE is going to be a good sized single target increase over starsurge—especially those who are good at syncing the ability with Crit/Damage/etc. CDs and procs. I hope that FoE gets a bit more of a buff to make it an even clearer higher skill cap, higher reward option to more of a level that ED was. On top of that, if you sneak a second target, you get so much more damage.

[Madus]

First, this change kills what most people have found to be the most enjoyable playstyle we have(yes, requiring a legendary for it is not cool, it should've been a talent).

Do you have some stats to backup that statement? Since i didnt found this playstyle much enjoyable, basicaly forcing me to not use stfl and fon...

[huth]

Right. And this is also good because now we wont be focused around haste breakpoints anymore.

Quite possible that's why they don't like it. They've been working hard at removing those from DoTs in the past years.