Healer dps (or lack of it) in M+

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This is a subjective point trying to be made. Often times poor healer DPS can be tied to very poor handling of mechanics by other team members.

I play as a resto druid for example. When I DPS it isn't hard for me to pull a 150 to 200k on trash packs. Sometimes more. On boss fights that are mostly single target sure about a 100k.

But this is considering I am doing mostly DPS and spot healing only. This takes a group of people that interrupt casts, stun certain mobs, and in general get out of fire. What I find is this usually isn't the case. At least in non-guild runs. In most pug situations it seems getting a ever so slightly bigger DPS bar is all that matters. It doesn't matter if that is gained by standing in shit to keep AOEing. It doesn't matter if it allows the almost group killing ability to go off to keep AOEing. It doesn't matter if the enraged mob that is almost one shotting the tank they will keep AOEing instead of stunning or focusing.

Next is having a tank that uses his CDs and self healing abilities well. A lot of tanks out there can almost keep themselves alive without a healer during a lot of situations. The problem with that is "they can" usually doesn't translate into "they will" in a pug environment. They are more focused on just pulling and, again, doing damage that they almost refuse to use abilities to keep themselves alive or heal themselves. Let alone using interrupts or stuns to accomplish the same thing.

This huge focus on the epeen bar really is what damages a healers ability to do a lot of damage. If I have to tunnel on keeping a group alive healing it doesn't leave a lot of GCDs to damage. If I let people just die and do damage than I get blamed for being a bad healer. If I don't do damage and keep people alive people bitch I am not doing enough damage.

So here is the jist of the story. If you are running in groups and your chief complaint is healers not doing damage, sure, you might have a healer that doesn't want to do damage. But also.. you might want to consider something else.. your ass might be so sucked up into doing damage that you are willing to trade 100k from your healer so you can get an extra 3-4k to keep AOEing instead of pushing your interrupt or stun.. let alone.. getting your ass out of the fire.

[Deleted]

Following some of "yours" logic, shouldnt dps be required to help heal if the situation requires it?

Yes. In a really good group, everyone is expected to do their best to assure mutual success.

DPS players are expected to use their stuns to reduce incoming damage - which helps the healer, and doesn't do anything for their DPS. Yet this task is crucial. Our enhacement shaman regularly used his instant heals when stormstrike is up to catch a dying player. Its a DPS loss, but far more effective then to let that player die and blame it on the heal. its a group effort, not a single players effort.

Tanks are expected to maximize their DPS as well. they are expected to not only hold aggro and survive, but also to set the pace and to ensure the DPS players always have enough targets in range. They have to ensure targets are grouped so that they can easily be bombed. All those things are well beyong the role of "hold aggro and survive".

DPS players are expected to use their personal CDs and use health stones if things get tight.


And yes, healers are expected to be everything they can to maximize effectiveness. If you have a spare GCD and you can do DPS, then you do DPS. If you have a stun you better use it, just like the DPS use their stuns.


If you are in a group where its clear from the beginning that maximum performance is expected, then you better perform at your maximum and get the old "its not my task" mentality out of your head. Thats not appropriate for content where succcess is a group effort.


If you are in a "fun group" where expectations are different, then its totally fine. otherwise, do your damn best.

[Dilemma90]

It's sad to read a lot of people saying "it's ok not to do any damage"

This isn't vanilla anymore, all healers should help out with damage just like tanks are helping as they are tanking.

We aren't asking you to put damage ahead of healing but as a resto druid, once my targets are top off, and I more than aware of the next incoming damage, I am casting moonfire, sunfire, and the rest spamming wrath. At the very least you can spam wrath.

I can take off 5 million hp off a boss, I don't see any reason why a healer should just idle and wait for damage when he can be contributing. If you have motivation to play your class at it's full potential, then you will learn to help dps as well.

This is especially important in raiding. No reason to do nothing, cast your free spell and keep spamming it until you feel uncomfortable and have to focus on healing.

If every player got into the habit of learning when to dps, then we won't have as much >5% wipes on bosses.

I will say there are plenty of times where I am not dpsing, but once you feel comfortable, get at it.

[Djriff]

There's a point where you're not doing damage because you're to busy healing. Healers are first and foremost healers, it's their job to keep people alive. If a healer is slacking on DPS when there isn't any healing to be done, then yes they are failing slightly, but at the end of the day if the group is alive and the instance is cleared that's enough in my book.

[Jrealness]

As an FYI, HW: Chastise is a DISORIENT not a stun, unless talented. And the long cooldown means it should not be relied upon unless absolutely necessary.


My opinion:

If I have the chance to do really shitty dps . . . . WTF ARE YOU DOING? GO PULL MORE STUFF!

I mean seriously! If I'm not healing, it means people aren't taking damage. If people aren't taking damage, it means you can pull more trash! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING WAITING AROUND FOR ME TO DPS??? Don't expect me to dps; I'm there to heal, and if I'm not healing, it means you can go faster (or I'm OOM, so pick one). More trash = more cleave damage = faster times.

On the flip side -- if I'm back-to-back casting heals, it means that I don't have even a global cooldown for a shitty dot. If you want me to dps in said conditions, it means that someone is going to take a dirt nap.

While I generally agree with this sentiment, it's not so cut and dry. Maybe it's the last pack before the boss, maybe they just got through a tough trash pack (pack on stairs after heimdall) and healer is oom, maybe someone DC'd, maybe it's bolstering affix. There are plenty of reasons why the tank doesn't just "pull more trash". The tanks job is to gauge the pace of the group and determine if another pack is necessary. I believe if there is an opportunity for a healer to do some damage then it is their responsibility to take it. I believe if a tank can pull more trash without causing a wipe it is their responsibility to take it. I believe if a DPS has a personal cooldown to use to prevent a big incoming spell it is their responsibility to use it. People don't seem to understand that group dynamics are incredibly important in M+, more so than in raids in some cases.

[TickTickTick]

I would do it if people knew how to avoid the dmg that can be avoided, how to use defensive cooldowns and how to play around bolstering...

[Rhoe]

What healer spec do you play?
From what I can tell from your posts, you're either Resto druid, or Holy pally. If you're a Resto druid, and you're going oom in dungeons, you have serious gameplay issues and are failing at basics. And wrath doesn't cost mana.

But if you're playing Holy pally, i have no idea if their abilities cost mana, but again, if you're going oom with them in a dungeon, you're playing seriously wrong.

Ofc I'm not going oom *just* from using dps abilities as a healer, that doesn't mean that they don't cost mana when you're really trying to put out as much dps as you can rather than just spamming your one free spell out of boredom. Sunfire costs more than rejuv! And if you get one of these pugs that demand that the healer dps, they're not very likely to give you time for mana breaks since they're obviously in a hurry (and if you're mana breaking for half a trash group then you won't be doing any dps either, you slacker!). So imagine you used a sunfire and 3 moonfires per pack (66k mana) for the last 4 packs, that's 264k mana, and you probably used at least twice that for actually healing. That's 75% of your mana bar, you're on maybe 35% thanks to mana regen. Now someone fucks up, not interrupting a fear, or tab targets the wrong group, hunter barrage pull, forgetting to reset necrotic stacks, bolster a strong trash mob at 90% health etc etc, suddenly you have to do "oh shit" healing on a third of your mana bar and that's just not gonna cut it. Nobody's gonna care that you did 80k dps, they're gonna care that you weren't able to fix the fuckup and save the group from a wipe. And that's why I don't dps as healer in pugs. (Not counting spamming some free spells like wrath or smite as dps)

[Simulacrum]

There's a point where you're not doing damage because you're to busy healing. Healers are first and foremost healers, it's their job to keep people alive. If a healer is slacking on DPS when there isn't any healing to be done, then yes they are failing slightly, but at the end of the day if the group is alive and the instance is cleared that's enough in my book.

That doesn't make sense. Players are players, not just "healers", "dps", etc. Everybody's goal isn't (or shouldn't be...) only to perform some specific role; it's to overcome whatever content they're attempting to overcome through whatever means available to them. The reason for DPS to DPS instead of heal, and vice versa, is that they do those things more efficiently than the others in the room. But if you're in a situation where a DPS can usefully heal more efficiently than a healer (or than 'no one', as is sometimes the case), then that DPS should heal instead of DPS. And the same goes for healers, for whom this is more relevant than for any other role since simply more healing isn't always useful, providing them with lots of opportunities to DPS instead of being useless.

I'd go so far as to say that deliberately limiting yourself only to performing some rigidly-assigned role is the behaviour of an imbecile.

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...And that's why I don't dps as healer in pugs. (Not counting spamming some free spells like wrath or smite as dps)

You're a druid, just run ahead of the party while casting all your spells and sit down to start drinking in range of the next pack the second you leave combat... nobody needs you to heal them 100% of the time unless they're a retard, and most people (at least most people who do decently difficult content) actually aren't that retarded. Even if they are, unless you're retarded, you can in fact realize whether they're retarded or not and adapt your playstyle to theirs, instead of mindlessly following some stupid "never dps in pugs" axiom.

[Deleted]

Big yes - healers need to dps. In a format where every second counts - healers playing to their max (sometimes by something simple as using dps trinkets like ruby + sunfire) helps group as a whole alot. Its all about of efficiency and the nonsense im reading here is why those people will never break+12 and up. YES flask and foods are requires , yes, tank should max their dps, yes healers should dps.

[Rhoe]

You're a druid, just run ahead of the party while casting all your spells and sit down to start drinking in range of the next pack the second you leave combat... nobody needs you to heal them 100% of the time unless they're a retard, and most people (at least most people who do decently difficult content) actually aren't that retarded. Even if they are, unless you're retarded, you can in fact realize whether they're retarded or not and adapt your playstyle to theirs, instead of mindlessly following some stupid "never dps in pugs" axiom.

I mostly heal on my paladin/priest and mainly used druid as an example because some dude thought resto druid dps is free just because wrath is. And it's actually surprisingly hard to know if some stranger is going to ninjapull (or similar fails) ahead of time, which is why I don't dps, not because they might or might not be "retarded". A group might do perfectly fine for the first half of the run and then suddenly someone has a stupid moment, that doesn't mean they're stupid all of the time.

An example that actually happened to me:
A guy I vaguely know asks me to heal a mythic0 for some WQ, the tank is apparently a badly geared alt or something, dps are all mythic raider mains. Easy right!? You don't even need a healer for this, right!? Being in disc spec, I ask, do I need to go holy for this? Nah, they say. I'm thinking ok, so they're just gonna demolish 1-2 trash groups at a time and I'll add some dps by staying disc. Enter dungeon, they pull half the trash packs to the first boss while mounted (DHT). Cats jump everywhere, nothing is interrupted/stunned and everyone is taking loads of damage while I'm disoriented. I need to do some massive heals right this second except I have no atonements up and I just can't. We wipe. I swap to holy and do 0 dps for the rest of the run because I'm too busy either healing or hoping I can drink for just one more tick.

Or the time I joined a "boost" group because nobody wanted to run my shitty HoV key. Only time I put out dps was when using holy word: chastise to interrupt really ouchy casts, because certainly nobody else was doing it. First time I felt sad about losing aoe fear as holy as I could've used it to interrupt. But to actually dps? Heh, no time. Mobs are freecasting and there's healing to be done. Lots of it.

Thinking back on all the pugs I've had this expansion, this actually seems to be the average experience for me when I heal. So yeah, I don't pug a lot. But I wish I could get those awesome groups you guys are getting when you pug.

[Emerald Archer]

I mostly heal on my paladin/priest and mainly used druid as an example because some dude thought resto druid dps is free just because wrath is.

Your ability to read is poor friend. And so is your mana management. I play a Resto druid, so that's what I know. When a pack is done, you can so easily displacer beast ahead, drink, and let the tank keep himself alive for the first 3 seconds. Everytime you're out of combat, even if it's just a 3 second drink, take the chance.

You sarcastically pointed out the logical thing to do, drink for the first part of the pack. It's not hard, you'll have plenty of mana. I've done a good 50 pugs, and never have I made a tank wait for me. He does his thing, and I find spots to mana up, it's part of being a healer. No group should have to wait for your mana anymore. And when you can. Dps. You have innervate and healing tonics if something gets out of hand and you need more mana.

[Deleted]

Of course, i will start dps when other dps that have heal will assist me with heal, learn how to use their defense cds etc, and this barely happen on ''non-hardcore'' level

[satanicsuture]

I just hope they buff other healers's damage to be not that behind holy pally. -_- It obviously feels pretty good when you can weave in some damage and feel like you contribute. Not so much when you try to do damage but your damage just sucks.

Why would they? Holy paladin DPS isn't overpowered, it's situational. To break 300k DPS we need to use wings, and that's the same as asking a druid to drop his tranq in favor of DPS, or a monk to drop his Revival to DPS. Paladins are melee healers that are strong at singletarget. We can specc for DPS sure, but then our healing suffers. If we use healing CDs to DPS, then as you can guess, our healing will suffer in those "Oh sh*t" moments.

When I DPS on my monk I pull 130-160k DPS, which is way below my paladin sure, but at the same time I have all my healing CDs ready and the DPS is a free bonus when there's nothing to heal. Not to mention as a monk my AoE dps scales the more mobs are pulled. My Paladin, not so much.

[Emerald Archer]

Of course, i will start dps when other dps that have heal will assist me with heal, learn how to use their defense cds etc, and this barely happen on ''non-hardcore'' level

That's an impressively mature attitude to have for your age.

Btw, when's your 8th Birthday?

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Why would they? Holy paladin DPS isn't overpowered, it's situational. To break 300k DPS we need to use wings, and that's the same as asking a druid to drop his tranq in favor of DPS, or a monk to drop his Revival to DPS. Paladins are melee healers that are strong at singletarget. We can specc for DPS sure, but then our healing suffers. If we use healing CDs to DPS, then as you can guess, our healing will suffer in those "Oh sh*t" moments.

That's not at all the same thing. Aura is the equiv to Tranq and (sorta) revival. Wings is like incarn, which a fuck ton of druids would happily use for a free massive burst of dps. And even if it did require tranq and Revival, we'd still do that for dps. The issue is we don't have that option, you do.

Infracted

[PosPosPos]

Your ability to read is poor friend. And so is your mana management. I play a Resto druid, so that's what I know. When a pack is done, you can so easily displacer beast ahead, drink, and let the tank keep himself alive for the first 3 seconds. Everytime you're out of combat, even if it's just a 3 second drink, take the chance.

You sarcastically pointed out the logical thing to do, drink for the first part of the pack. It's not hard, you'll have plenty of mana. I've done a good 50 pugs, and never have I made a tank wait for me. He does his thing, and I find spots to mana up, it's part of being a healer. No group should have to wait for your mana anymore. And when you can. Dps. You have innervate and healing tonics if something gets out of hand and you need more mana.

It's easier as a mobile healer to run ahead of the group rather than one that has to hardcast, is the point you completely missed just to insult another poster. Hypocritical as it comes.

[satanicsuture]

As a monk healer I frequently try to dps a bit to makes things faster (ie popping 3 min cd at pull to dps the boss, or aoe the mobs), but I wish fistweaving wasn't that bad

What 3 min CD? Do you mean your racial? Because I don't recall us having any DPS CDs at all. I do agree we should help out on DPS however, I often prepot prolonged power and DPS. Fistweaving doesn't really exist anymore, but we can still put out enough to help.

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As aHoly Priest doing mostly PuGs I'm often embarassed by my "DPS" in dungeons. Yeah I throw a smite/holy Fire here and there but it's kinda silly. I'm not 400kDPS Holy Pala. If a fight alows me to use HALF of my time to DPS I do what? 40k DPS on a ST fight? I do it but mostly because of boredom not to add anything.

Trash packs though, thats a different story. Even after nerf you can dish a decent DPS with Holy Nova spam.

PS. Out of curiosity... How is other healers ST/AoE DPS in dungeons? I hear a lot of good stuff bout Paladins. How about others?

I mentioned it before, Paladins are strong on singletarget if they use CDs, but really bad on AoE. I also play monks and they are really good on AoE but average on singletarget. It should also be added that you shouldn't count the DPS of a healer, rather the damage done. My monk rarely goes above 150k on singletarget, but at the end of the fight, I still end up doing 10m+ in damage.

[Laronda]

Unless you're new to healing or haven't healed in a while, there's not really an excuse to not get into the habit of it.

As someone who strives to better himself and contribute all he can to a group, this kind of stuff seems obvious. When I play Resto Druid, I sunfire/moonfire/wrath spam whenever I'm not casting a healing spell, to the point where it's natural to do so now. It's not incredible DPS but it's another 130-180k to speed up the run a bit. Not only this, but using utilities on CD such as vortex->typhoon to bunch mobs together or typhoon as a last resort interrupt.

Long story short, if you don't do this stuff then you're AFKing 30-40% of the dungeon (unless you're group is terrible).

[satanicsuture]

So helping the group do something 4-5% faster isn't relevant in your eyes?

In most things in the world people would be thrilled with a 4-5% increase in efficiency. Especially when it could turn a 2 chest run into a 3 or a tight +12 into a run you completed on time.

One of the server first Neltharion +15 was done with a Holy Pala. They beat the timer with 35 seconds if I recall. Without that 5%, it would have been a fail, just as an example.

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What healer spec do you play?
From what I can tell from your posts, you're either Resto druid, or Holy pally. If you're a Resto druid, and you're going oom in dungeons, you have serious gameplay issues and are failing at basics. And wrath doesn't cost mana.

But if you're playing Holy pally, i have no idea if their abilities cost mana, but again, if you're going oom with them in a dungeon, you're playing seriously wrong.

They cost mana as with every other DPS spell. We mainly use Holy Shock as it's our highest damage spell. And sure, you do go oom (not from pure DPS tho) but I haven't been in a dungeon for a VERY long time, where I couldn't sprint ahead of tank, and drink a few seconds before the next pull.

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...and you might still be disappointed. My GF went disco for our last night's EN NM carry. She did outheal better geared healers in her holy setup (not sure if stats are very different, she definitely is a holy priest almost exclusively though) but her damage was negligible. Not sure how to read that, but certainly don't expect super dps from healer even if it's disco.

Disc doesn't do high DPS and they never will. The benefit of Disc however is that she shouldn't be more than 5-10% behind the other healers, while at the same time doing equal damage to a tank. We had mythic raidbosses where the Disc priest pulled 40-45m damage, and that's not a negligible output from a healer on for instance Ursoc.

[Emerald Archer]

It's easier as a mobile healer to run ahead of the group rather than one that has to hardcast, is the point you completely missed just to insult another poster. Hypocritical as it comes.

I literally just said I'm a Resto druid, and that's what I'm talking about.

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They cost mana as with every other DPS spell. We mainly use Holy Shock as it's our highest damage spell. And sure, you do go oom (not from pure DPS tho) but I haven't been in a dungeon for a VERY long time, where I couldn't sprint ahead of tank, and drink a few seconds before the next pull.

You only need to be able to click the drink, and then you can drink while they fight for a few seconds.

[PosPosPos]

I literally just said I'm a Resto druid, and that's what I'm talking about.

Yes, and I pointed out the irony and hypocrisy in insulting the "reading ability" of others when the person you happened to be insulting was speaking from a paladin/priest point of view.

You could have just told him that druids were different from those healer specs, but no, it's straight to completely missing the point, and insulting others for the same thing you are doing.

/slowclap