[Balance] Legion Discussion

[PickleballAce]

I've yet to hear any arguments that support the reasons behind ED playstyle being "fun" other than it being the best ST dps out there.

We can even throw subjective stuff like "clunkiness" aside, it still practically forces us into a set talent build, enslaves us to haste caps, makes us less flexible with our already-limited mobility, and punishes us for latency hiccups.

I don't understand the appeal of ED at all beyond the DPS boost. Even if it were fun, I'm not sure it's worth all the trouble it brings strictly from a design standpoint.

[Killuha]

We can even throw subjective stuff like "clunkiness" aside, it still practically forces us into a set talent build, enslaves us to haste caps, makes us less flexible with our already-limited mobility, and punishes us for latency hiccups.

I don't understand the appeal of ED at all beyond the DPS boost. Even if it were fun, I'm not sure it's worth all the trouble it brings strictly from a design standpoint.

I'll give you that the "forced" talent/gearing setup and reliance on stable connection is not optimal. But what is appealing for me is that there is room for me to improve with ED, while the base playstyle has very low skill ceiling. The only real decision you have is when to use your cooldown. Which would be fine if there was a option to spec into a more intricate playstyle.

A big problem with moonkin is that the most basic and easy to execute talent setup nets the best damage, hopefully 7.1.5 will help with that.

And what I hear people find the most enjoyable to be able to do max dps - no matter the rotation.
I personally like the playstyle of FoE, its harder than ED and I've heard other people like it too they're just not using it because its sub-par dps. It must be the most enjoyable rite?

I've yet to hear any arguments that support the reasons behind ED playstyle being "fun" other than it being the best ST dps out there. Please show me any and "I just like it" posts are useless to me. (This whole thing is pretty useless now since the latest change but I'm still curious)

If ED effect was talent with subpar dps results, it would be trashed to afrika.

Do you expect people to play a harder spec that nets less damage even when played optimally and punishes severely over the easy spec?
Imagine if S2M wasn't the highest damage talent, even if it is fun it would be stupid run it.

I rather like playing with FoE but the risk/reward is just not right, so it's relegated to lower m+ where I'm not risking punishing my group for my mistakes.

[Beckers]

Blasting the only thing that made Boomkins barely comparable to other classes into oblivion, and not likely buffing to compensate it at all.

Yup, basic Blizzard doing balance changes. Better get that pillow ready, since that Nighthold Bench sure is gonna need it.

What makes you say that?

They tinkered with Talents, then Items, next is the spells turn.

Lets see what happens before we cry ourselves to sleep ok?

[lappee]

Do you expect people to play a harder spec that nets less damage even when played optimally and punishes severely over the easy spec?
Imagine if S2M wasn't the highest damage talent, even if it is fun it would be stupid run it.

I rather like playing with FoE but the risk/reward is just not right, so it's relegated to lower m+ where I'm not risking punishing my group for my mistakes.

Some people would still play it for sure but thats not the point. I'm just asking why they like that particular playstyle since thats what everybody is so mad about (theres no set in stone class balance changes yet so they can't be mad about them losing dps)

[Adramelch]

Some people would still play it for sure but thats not the point. I'm just asking why they like that particular playstyle since thats what everybody is so mad about (theres no set in stone class balance changes yet so they can't be mad about them losing dps)

It makes the spec feel more fast paced and more rewarding when you play good/punishing when you play bad. I also personally like having breakpoints and trying to minmax my gear around them. The latency thing is rather annoying though.

[Killuha]

Some people would still play it for sure but thats not the point. I'm just asking why they like that particular playstyle since thats what everybody is so mad about

I'll second Adramelch sentiment that room for error and with that improvement is a big reason for me. The base spec sadly doesn't allow for much of that.

I can see that a legendary is not the right place for such a change, especially not with the broken acquisition system we have.

(theres no set in stone class balance changes yet so they can't be mad about them losing dps)

It's inevitable that some people will be irrationally mad about losing damage, even if tuning isn't finalized.

[Hellshout]

I'm guessing the FoE spec is without ED, right?

[lappee]

It makes the spec feel more fast paced and more rewarding when you play good/punishing when you play bad. I also personally like having breakpoints and trying to minmax my gear around them. The latency thing is rather annoying though.

Breakpoints happen to be something Blizzard is trying to remove from the game, nothing we can really do about it

Other points come down to low error window which with your own words is annoying because of latency. Sounds really contradictory to me.

[Adramelch]

Breakpoints happen to be something Blizzard is trying to remove from the game, nothing we can really do about it

Other points come down to low error window which with your own words is annoying because of latency. Sounds really contradictory to me.

Ye I added personally because I know they want to remove them, so not much we can do as you said.

The low error window mostly comes from bad movement though. Latency is sth I didn't need to worry about since I use increase lag tolerance, it's just annoying that you'd need something like that. It's not that contradictory. They are separate issues for the most part.

[Deleted]

And what I hear people find the most enjoyable to be able to do max dps - no matter the rotation.
I personally like the playstyle of FoE, its harder than ED and I've heard other people like it too they're just not using it because its sub-par dps. It must be the most enjoyable rite?


I've yet to hear any arguments that support the reasons behind ED playstyle being "fun" other than it being the best ST dps out there. Please show me any and "I just like it" posts are useless to me. (This whole thing is pretty useless now since the latest change but I'm still curious)

You haven't been listening (or reading I suppose) then.

I prefer the playstyle because I find the challenge of keeping the buff up very engaging and challenging, and it feels significantly more fast paced and rewarding when you play it correctly.

Would I do the ED rotation if it wasn't a dps increase? Of course not. But the fact that it is a dps increase does not mean that it necessarily is less enjoyable, that logic doesn't hold anywhere. Imagine it was a dps decrease - would it now be wrong to call the base rotation more enjoyable? Of course not. I would like the ED to be part of our base rotation, but having such a complex rotation baseline is never going to happen in this game (unless they drastically change their design philosophy), so if the only way I can get this rotation is by also having a 5% dps increase thrown into it, then I am perfectly fine with that. Or do you think that the harder rotation should be a dps loss? cause that makes absolutely no sense, nobody would ever do it then.

If you want to read some other people's opinions:

US: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752349289
EU: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614455825

Knock yourself out.

[Benden010]

Guys I hope this is the right place to ask, but I am done playing mage. I only enjoyed fire and they are getting blasted into oblivion currently.

I am looking for another range DPS to play that is good, but not super reliant on a legendary to still pull top %(75+) numbers(e.g. all the boomkin over like 80% parses have either the ring, bracers, or ED... but on my fire mage even without a DPS leg I could parse 90%). Do you guys feel boomkin has the potential to be a top ranged DPS for both mythic progression AND mythic+ come 7.1.5(with how the PTR currently stands)? Even without any good legendaries?

[Adramelch]

As PTR currently stands, baseline boomkin is just not that good. We should be seeing buffs (given they nerfed the big outlier in ED and I imagine IFE is next), but as things stand now I'd say it's not worth it.

[paror]

Guys I hope this is the right place to ask, but I am done playing mage. I only enjoyed fire and they are getting blasted into oblivion currently.

I am looking for another range DPS to play that is good, but not super reliant on a legendary to still pull top %(75+) numbers(e.g. all the boomkin over like 80% parses have either the ring, bracers, or ED... but on my fire mage even without a DPS leg I could parse 90%). Do you guys feel boomkin has the potential to be a top ranged DPS for both mythic progression AND mythic+ come 7.1.5(with how the PTR currently stands)? Even without any good legendaries?

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: I would be looking at elemental shaman (buffs confirmed) but mages will always be mages. It might be smarter to invest in frost or arcane as I think frost is also simming quite good.

But advice, stay away from druid. We need a dps legendary to be viable right now for mythic progression.

[lappee]

I prefer the playstyle because I find the challenge of keeping the buff up very engaging and challenging, and it feels significantly more fast paced and rewarding when you play it correctly.

But the challenge comes from movement which is the same as in the rotation without it. The difference between a good and a bad moonkin increases which is fine and the only real point there is.
Your rotation doesnt change unless you have to move so the feeling for "fast pacedness" comes from the illusion of having to do stuff within that 3 second window. Whenever you actually feel comfortable with it, the illusion fades.
Its ok if thats what you feel but after all it is just a feeling.

If you want to read some other people's opinions:

US: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752349289
EU: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614455825

Knock yourself out.

I don't really want to read 10 pages to find one actual answer to what I'm looking for. After all most of those posts (like OP) are just whining about the current state of Balance dps and give nothing more to ED discussion than "I found it fun" - No reasoning, none at all.

[Deleted]

Your rotation doesnt change

mate, I respect you for being a good player, but you're clearly not qualified to talk about this if you think the rotation doesn't change.

[lappee]

mate, I respect you for being a good player, but you're clearly not qualified to talk about this if you think the rotation doesn't change.

doesnt change the rotation as in theres no "randomness" in it, unless you have to move. Sure it changes the base rotation that you'd do without it.

[Deleted]

doesnt change the rotation as in theres no "randomness" in it, unless you have to move. Sure it changes the base rotation that you'd do without it.

I think "no change to the rotation" to descripe no addition of RNG to the rotation is an extremely poor choice of words. Yes, both rotations are completely predictable with no RNG involved, but that doesn't prevent them from being vastly different in other regards.

For instance, one reason why some people enjoy the ED rotation more is because it reduces the "openess" of the rotation, and makes it significantly more strict (and as a result, rewarding). Consider a short sequence of 2 starsurges (1) and 2 solar wrath (2) casts. Without ED, you can do any of the following: 1122, 1212, 1221, 2112, 2121, 2211. With ED, the only correct sequence is 1221. Instead of being able to click pretty much any spell you want most of the time, there is only one right spell to click every single global cooldown while you have the ED buff up. Clicking that one correct button to increase your dps, instead of one random button out of 4, without any consequence to your dps, feels WAY more rewarding.

[lappee]

I think "no change to the rotation" to descripe no addition of RNG to the rotation is an extremely poor choice of words. Yes, both rotations are completely predictable with no RNG involved, but that doesn't prevent them from being vastly different in other regards.

For instance, one reason why some people enjoy the ED rotation more is because it reduces the "openess" of the rotation, and makes it significantly more strict (and as a result, rewarding). Consider a short sequence of 2 starsurges (1) and 2 solar wrath (2) casts. Without ED, you can do any of the following: 1122, 1212, 1221, 2112, 2121, 2211. With ED, the only correct sequence is 1221. Instead of being able to click pretty much any spell you want most of the time, there is only one right spell to click every single global cooldown while you have the ED buff up. Clicking that one correct button to increase your dps, instead of one random button out of 4, without any consequence to your dps, feels WAY more rewarding.

Vastly different in regards of choice. One gives you a choice and the other doesnt. We had the "no choice" rotation just last expansion and people cried all over about it because it was so strict. Now suddenly people are all over for it - I just don't buy it. Sure theres people that always liked it that way but majority? No, I don't think so.

I bet we'd be in the same situation if it was the other way around. ED rotation being the core and current base rotation being the "legendary stuff". They'd argue its much better because of its "openess" (and the dps benefits, obviously)

I don't blame anyone for liking whatever they do like as long as they don't use things like dps as a reason for it.

[Tyze]

Balance Druid
The change to The Emerald Dreamcatcher is an attempt to narrow the gap between the high end and low end of legendary items.
Your spec shouldn't only be viable with a certain legendary. This can be fixed by nerfing the legendary some and buffing the spec some. This way the player with the legendary doesn't have a power change and everyone withou the legendary moves a little bit closer.
This change shouldn't be a nerf for anyone.
Tuning for Balance isn't done yet.

[lindowqq]

anyone else feel the tier 19 stats seem to favor vers?