Mafia 76: Clue

[Graeham]

Somewhat valid. It is hard to defend someone reading your tone as odd without direct questions, but reading people is kinda the game. Though there is a playstyle history component it doesn't really have to do with past accuracy of other people -- that's a bit of a cop out of "if you think i'm scum i must be town". But fair enough direct question: You say "catta ideally should have claimed" but it went from 2 votes suggestion to 5 lynch in 20 minutes, all 30 before deadline. Do you think there's at least a scum on those 3? Which is most likely if so in your opinion?

I think it's a series of unfortunate events. There could very well be scum on his train but at the same time I feel like people simply took the lazy route yesterday - which is why Dupti ended up being a potential target as well. Catta did gather a lot of votes rather abruptly but he didn't really address the issue that led him to be a lynch target in the first place: effectively being a no show up until he arrived. Even when he did post there wasn't much weighing in on the game's progress or an attempt to persuade people not to vote on him.

Part of that problem is the unfortunate habit of 'lol it's D1' a lot of people hide behind but I digress. For me, yesterday it was always going to be between Catta and Lora for the sake of inactivity. Had I been around to switch my vote I would have pushed for Lora instead since Catta at least showed up.

Today it was going to be Lora for the same reasoning though you taking his place remedies that particular predicament. So now I'm at a loss and need to think on my next move.

[Razamith]

unvote
@Crackleslap: Dupti appeared to be your joke/random vote yesterday. You then voted on Graeham midday and left it there. Was there any reason/read or another random vote on a solo train?

[Crackleslap]

unvote
@Crackleslap: Dupti appeared to be your joke/random vote yesterday. You then voted on Graeham midday and left it there. Was there any reason/read or another random vote on a solo train?

Graeham felt a little more direct than normal / more serious than he usually is. At least I was getting that impression. As for the value of the vote? It was pretty weak.

[Razamith]

Thanks for the quick reply. Any thoughts on xanjori vs danner banter?

[Crackleslap]

The whole knowing Catta is a cop or whatever being the hidden reason for the lynch doesn't seem plausible. So I'd agree with Danner there. Nothing indicates to me (yet) that Danner is scum. Poor voting record though. Both town. There's some doubt there. I'm not so sure yet.

[listo95]

Totally not needed vote count!

Xanjori (1): Danner

Day 2 deadline is December 7th at 4:30pm EST (9:30pm GMT) (14.5 hours from now)

With 8 players alive it takes 5 for a majority lynch.

[Razamith]

Silence only benefits scum. About 7 hours left. Another last minute vote surge? That worked so well the first time. -.-

@Virothe: Have any reads or thoughts? Or is "catta should have been scum" the totality for today?

@Largehorn, @Xanjori: Both of you have made strong statements against Danner. Some responses i've questioned myself, but here are the points i'm having a hard time getting over -- can you convince me otherwise:
- Danner was a key response in getting the lynch off based on kryllian's proposal. I have to believe scum Danner valued a mislynch with high profile over no-lynch (where "leading train" was already a mislynch)
- Scum Danner voted on dupti then scum killed dupti making his vote record worse
- Dupti's sole vote was on Danner who scum killed flipped town would draw at least some attention
- My previous post where I know all 3 trains discussed (dupti/catta/lora) were town so there was no legit pressure on any scum [unless you argue dupti's single vote on scum danner worried them enough to kill him, which has merits but tenuous]
- Scum Danner's opening D2 explanation is one giant play to look bad but explain it right away and win friends
I'm not dismissing that danner's record looks the worst here, but its only that way because of the scum kill. I'm open to hearing discussion on it.

@Kryllian: Since my replacement of lora and your vote invalidated you've speculated on game makeup. Who's your strongest scum read currently?

[Kryllian]

Since my replacement of lora and your vote invalidated you've speculated on game makeup. Who's your strongest scum read currently?

I hadn't actually voted on Lora. I'm always a strong proponent for lynching people who don't participate. I know it doesn't get much info but it helps keep scum from using that tactic.

Right now my eye is on Graeham, Crackle, Virothe, and Large.

Graeham - His response to having one vote of "don't vote for me because I was eliminated first last game hasn't sat well with me. Since then some of his statement have seemed random. I don't have a good record though with him when I think he's town he's scum and vice versa.

Crackle/Virothe - they both have limited participation and their posts don't really seem to do much other than fluff and vote. There isn't any attempt to solve the game on their parts.

Large - I started down a line of thoughts with his backtrack on Lora and I'm still not a fan that his only reason was to try and get a response. There are other ways to ping a person now such as using the "@" method rather than just voting so for him to say he was voting to get attention but that we shouldn't plan to lynch Lora seems unproductive.

[Graeham]

@Kryllian: Which of my statements seem random to you? Can you please give examples so that I can address them?

[Largehorn]

@Razamith

Your hold ups on Danner seem to bank on there only being a single scum team. I think it's a little to early to rule out the possibility that non-Danner friendly scum killed Dupti to continue making Danner look bad. Note: I'm not saying that there is more than a single scum team but I'm accounting for it. Note2: These comments are going to be misconstrued by Kryllian in 5....4....3....

You're correct it seems silly that a Danner aligned scum team would kill Dupti, but there is a possibility that there is a non Danner aligned kill out there. For all we know, a Vigi (HAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA not likely if there is a non-"mafia" kill it's almost would have to be an SK) would go after the person that was the "other" train than the resulting cop lynch. Meaning to me you can't use just how "setup" it looks against or for Danner's lynch. Removing that from consideration, Danner's interaction with Xanjori causes me to lean more that Danner is scum. I doubt that there are two scum between Danner, Virothe, and Kryllianbut there is almost certainly one. I just currently believe Danner is the most likely.

Large - I started down a line of thoughts with his backtrack on Lora and I'm still not a fan that his only reason was to try and get a response. There are other ways to ping a person now such as using the "@" method rather than just voting so for him to say he was voting to get attention but that we shouldn't plan to lynch Lora seems unproductive.

Please quote me on this "back track" on Lora. You won't find any post where I say that getting Lora's attention isn't okay. Just LYNCHING him. I didn't want to lynch him D1 either and would have moved my vote had I been able to post again. This whole "meta-gaming" about better ways to get people's attention is total bullshit. Would you like to know why? I used every means I could that were legal in game to get his attention on D1 and it still didn't work. Lynching an inactive D2 tells us completely nothing. All it does is remove an inactive player. I'm glad to see you not only want to get zero information lynches, apparently talking against them in the first 24 hours of a day is now scummy in your world. Keep on trying to keep your town "team mates" in the dark, friend.

- - - Updated - - -

Since it's getting close, we should really start getting votes out so we can get as much info out of today as possible.

For now,

Vote: Danner

I'm willing to move but I really think Danner is the best bet today.

[Danner]

Why would I need to if I was scum? Especially on the first post of the day?

This is speaking in your favour.
Everything else does not. You've spent the entire gameday trying to paint me as scum, using the most ridiculous logic ever, then confirming the logic was serious, then brushing it off as a test of reactions. I do not buy it. You have my vote.
@Largehorn: I had a nagging feeling you were on Xanjori's team. If you feel the need to argue two scumteams in a 10 man game just to paint me as scum, you know you are reaching. There is no supporting evidence of this. My conclusion is that nagging feeling isn't terribly off. I'm not gonna jump to the conclusion quite yet, but seriously...

--

Anwyay. I'm obviously not the cop. Just do not ignore Xanjori tomorrow. Then look really closely at Largehorn.

- - - Updated - - -
@Razamith:

You know, I was wondering who the dupti kill was really trying to set up.
Your post made me realize just who. Thanks for making me see the light.
I feel kinda stupid now though.

[Razamith]

Your hold ups on Danner seem to bank on there only being a single scum team. I think it's a little to early to rule out the possibility that non-Danner friendly scum killed Dupti to continue making Danner look bad. Note: I'm not saying that there is more than a single scum team but I'm accounting for it. Note2: These comments are going to be misconstrued by Kryllian in 5....4....3....

You're correct it seems silly that a Danner aligned scum team would kill Dupti, but there is a possibility that there is a non Danner aligned kill out there. For all we know, a Vigi (HAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHA not likely if there is a non-"mafia" kill it's almost would have to be an SK) would go after the person that was the "other" train than the resulting cop lynch. Meaning to me you can't use just how "setup" it looks against or for Danner's lynch. Removing that from consideration, Danner's interaction with Xanjori causes me to lean more that Danner is scum. I doubt that there are two scum between Danner, Virothe, and Kryllianbut there is almost certainly one. I just currently believe Danner is the most likely.

I cant completely discount two teams but have many reasons to believe its much more likely one. Tonight may help clear that up but i cannot base lynch on requiring the improbable. As stated before i get the questionable responses reasoning, but still have a hard time getting over when i fully believe dupti was the probable mafia kill. You have stated multiple times you think 1 of the 3 are likely scum, and have presented danner logic and made clear your feelings on kryllian. What of virothe? His contributions, positioning, tone/timing, what exactly is getting him a pass on mentioning much so far?
If i was to believe you were scum you could be trying to buy town points if virothe was a teammate that "i knew one was scum" while pushing others first, or hoping to bag any of the three if all town. Just a possible scenario.

At this point i'm most interested in crackle and virothe, with some other interest in graeham/xan/large. (horray i listed almost everyone so useful! -.-) I've got to look at contribution/discussion first and those two are falling the shortest for me. I also have to factor my knowledge of no scum trains/discussion D1. For now i'm going:
vote crackle
with continued interest in the other(s).
- large is (pardon the pun) stretching some ideas
- xan is claiming to be useful but only targeted danner
- graeham has a laundry list of mafia cliches
- crackle has been very low key staying away from trains/spotlight and potentially echoing
- virothe is MIA which is at best anti-town

[Virothe]

virothe is MIA which is at best anti-town

You're Anti-Town!

-I got nothing to add, I just felt it had been awhile since I said anything-

[Graeham]

@Razamith: Cliches? Which? Whilst I realise it's not exactly a defence I deliberately make myself difficult to read. I also don't act the same way in each game that I participate in. Not intentionally at least. I was killed early on in the previous game after tricking people into believing I was a TPR despite being a VT. Obviously that isn't likely to work again this time around so I'm taking a different approach. I didn't really want to spell that out but I suppose I left myself with no choice.

With that said the accusations against me have been all sorts of vague. I'd be a lot more comfortable if people simply stated it was a 'gut feel' - but they're implying actuall statements I've made have been 'off' without putting solid examples forward. Unless I'm being super dumb and have missed them, of course. Either way hopefully Kryllian can get back to me on time with examples so I can address them...hopefully before the deadline.

[Xanjori]

Everything else does not. You've spent the entire gameday trying to paint me as scum, using the most ridiculous logic ever, then confirming the logic was serious, then brushing it off as a test of reactions..

I really wish I knew how you arrived at this conclusion. When I said scum get paranoid, this was what I meant, you've overblown the situation by such a large degree you're either convincing yourself or convincing others that I was fully serious in declaring you out and out scum. This is the kind of reaction that needs some serious scrutiny,

[Largehorn]

-Request for my opinion on Virothe-

There's nothing to really react or to draw an opinion from. I felt it was more productive use of my time to interact with those who were here and I have some sort of read on.

That being said, I'm sure it's a bit of "if people were talking to Virothe, Virothe would talk with us". I know I have the same issue at times.

How about we lynch all three? I'm even open to debate on the order in which we do it.

[Virothe]

I'm sure it's a bit of "if people were talking to Virothe, Virothe would talk with us"

Gasp! STOP GIVING AWAY MAH SECRETS!

But I honestly don't have a lot to add we barely have two pages since day started and it's mostly just people saying the same three names over and over with Danner at the forefront. Can't really draw a conclusion on the Lora votes either cause they vanished and it's just all very bleh.

[Largehorn]

Gasp! STOP GIVING AWAY MAH SECRETS!

Shit my bad. I forgot you told me not too.

I'm sorry. Please forgive me. T.T

[Virothe]

Shit my bad. I forgot you told me not too.

I'm sorry. Please forgive me. T.T

You're forgiven, but only because your flamey-spines are nice and warm when it's like -20 out

[Razamith]

Cliches? Which?

While i didn't want to preempt kryllian's answer possibly rendering it moot here is my "list":
- D1 joke vote on you immediately responded with "died N1 last game you'll drive people away from mafia!" (to which dupti noted reaction in #18) (also largehorn interaction)
- "Eliminating active players D1 not cool" / "but lynching someone who isn't here over someone who is seems very wise to me" (with you being very active D1)
- Catta should have claimed as TPR his lynch was his fault
- "Perhaps a vote will serve to draw him out. As it stands I'm not keen on lynching anyone who is actually here given how quiet the game actually is." (see bullet #2)
All of these are perfectly valid town points and i can agree with, but they way they came about smelled mildly fishy (to a degree at least). They all contain a reason to keep you, where scum have the most reason to make those arguments early and often. But in greater context you're not on my top list due to your content but there's still some things i cant shake either. But that's my personal opinion.

How about we lynch all three? I'm even open to debate on the order in which we do it.

If you fully bought into my stated scenario where there's one team, they killed dupti, and the three trains discussed D1 were all town, would this change your opinion of the three "zergers" at all? If so anyone stand out in that scenario?

But I honestly don't have a lot to add we barely have two pages since day started and it's mostly just people saying the same three names over and over with Danner at the forefront. Can't really draw a conclusion on the Lora votes either cause they vanished and it's just all very bleh.

Who are the same three names? I'm the one bringing up most non-danner options (discounting lora afk due to replacement obviously) and haven't seen much discussion about anyone at all (danner back at xan/large i guess) which should be worrisome. NOT adding your thoughts isn't helping, thus my statement earlier.