Do you think Sylvanas vs Genn conflict is over in Legion?

[Wewlad]

theyd probably kill liam again, considering they dont mind control undead, or keep his zombie in a cage or something.

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Lillian Voss should never be relevant, a terrible character, the fact that some want her to be in charge of the Forsaken is hilarious.

I do completely agree with you on Lillian Voss. As much as I think Sylvanas is overhyped, she is at least a rounded-out character.

[Qualia]

Like I said, Arthas' (as the Lich King) plan in WoW made sense from a genre savvy POV, and in service of his plan, he was completely successful until Tirion decided to activate his plot-given power. Not to mention that he is a different character as the Lich King. WoW's storytelling can be abysmal, but he wasn't horrifically ruined as some people like to think. They just couldn't grasp how meta his plan was.

Not related to the topic being discussed, but Arthas's plan in WoW was pretty stupid. It was good until ICC, then he decided to freeze Tirion for the sake of gloating and it backfired horribly. He should have killed Tirion the moment he got a chance, be it the first strike or right after he killed us. It's even more retarded seeing that Arthas actually knew all along that Ashbringer would eventually clash with Frostmourne and still left himself completely defenseless right before it, frozen or not...

[Wewlad]

Not related to the topic being discussed, but Arthas's plan in WoW was pretty stupid. It was good until ICC, then he decided to freeze Tirion for the sake of gloating and it backfired horribly. He should have killed Tirion the moment he got a chance, be it the first strike or right after he killed us. It's even more retarded seeing that Arthas actually knew all along that Ashbringer would eventually clash with Frostmourne and still left himself completely defenseless right before it, frozen or not...

At that point there was no logical way to make the Lich King lose without it being pure PIS. Although, the Lich King had been implied to be encountering some sort of internal struggle with the piece of Arthas left.

[tikcol]

I hope not. I want to see Sylvanas killing Genn real bad

[Friendlyimmolation]

I hope not. I want to see Sylvanas killing Genn real bad

and thats why they will probably never kill either

[Qualia]

At that point there was no logical way to make the Lich King lose without it being pure PIS. Although, the Lich King had been implied to be encountering some sort of internal struggle with the piece of Arthas left.

Of course it was PIS, but it being PIS doesn't remove the "S" part standing for stupidity in it. It'd be one thing if he wasn't aware that Ashbringer would clash with Frostmourne, but in this case, he did.

[tikcol]

and thats why they will probably never kill either

Oh, but I do

[Wewlad]

Of course it was PIS, but it being PIS doesn't remove the "S" part standing for stupidity in it. It'd be one thing if he wasn't aware that Ashbringer would clash with Frostmourne, but in this case, he did.

You also can't just separate the S from PIS. Though, how much sense did it make for Tirion to godmode out of that ice block? He didn't have the excuse of holy ground, and the Light is shown to be rather ineffective when deep in enemy territory though the reverse is also true for shadow/unholy. Hell, in the Light's Hope battle, it took both the Ashbringer and holy ground to allow Tirion to push the Lich King back, and there was definitely a hit delivered yet he didn't defeat him on the spot? The whole deal with Ashbringer breaking Frostmourne was never a thing until ICC. A lot of asspulls on Blizzard's end to make sure Tirion won.

[steelballfc]

Lillian Voss should never be relevant, a terrible character, the fact that some want her to be in charge of the Forsaken is hilarious

why you say that, she doesn't have like 4 pages of lore, she is a new char we didn't even explore much into her

[Qualia]

You also can't just separate the S from PIS. Though, how much sense did it make for Tirion to godmode out of that ice block? He didn't have the excuse of holy ground, and the Light is shown to be rather ineffective when deep in enemy territory though the reverse is also true for shadow/unholy. Hell, in the Light's Hope battle, it took both the Ashbringer and holy ground to allow Tirion to push the Lich King back, and there was definitely a hit delivered yet he didn't defeat him on the spot? The whole deal with Ashbringer breaking Frostmourne was never a thing until ICC. A lot of asspulls on Blizzard's end to make sure Tirion won.

Actually, while Arthas didn't know that Ashbringer would break Frostmourne, he knew that Ashbringer would clash with Frostmourne long time before WoTLK happened:

"Frostmourne. This at least he knew, and intimately. The sword whirled end over end, as if Arthas has tossed it into the air. A second sword rose to meet it - long, inelegant but powerful, with the symbol of a skull embedded in its fearsome blade. A name - “Ashbringer,” a sword and yet more than a sword, as was Frostmourne. The two clashed - Arthas blinked and shook his head. The visions, tumbled, chaotic, heartening, and disturbing - were gone.

The orc chuckled, the painted skull on his face stretching with the gesture. He had once been named Ner’zhul, had once had the gift of true visioning. Arthas did not doubt that all he had seen, though imperfectly understood, would indeed come to pass" (Rise of the Lich King)

I don't deny that Arthas lost because the plot required him to lose. However, that doesn't change the fact that that part of his plan, plot-induced or not, was stupid. He knew that Ashbringer and Frostmourne would clash disturbingly, and still decided to leave himself defenseless in front of it. If he wasn't overconfident, he'd have just killed Tirion right after he defeated us, rather than keeping him there while gloating and resurrecting us.

[Wewlad]

Actually, while Arthas didn't know that Ashbringer would break Frostmourne, he knew that Ashbringer would clash with Frostmourne long time before WoTLK happened:

"Frostmourne. This at least he knew, and intimately. The sword whirled end over end, as if Arthas has tossed it into the air. A second sword rose to meet it - long, inelegant but powerful, with the symbol of a skull embedded in its fearsome blade. A name - “Ashbringer,” a sword and yet more than a sword, as was Frostmourne. The two clashed - Arthas blinked and shook his head. The visions, tumbled, chaotic, heartening, and disturbing - were gone.

The orc chuckled, the painted skull on his face stretching with the gesture. He had once been named Ner’zhul, had once had the gift of true visioning. Arthas did not doubt that all he had seen, though imperfectly understood, would indeed come to pass" (Rise of the Lich King)

I don't deny that Arthas lost because the plot required him to lose. However, that doesn't change the fact that that part of his plan, plot-induced or not, was stupid. He knew that Ashbringer and Frostmourne would clash disturbingly, and still decided to leave himself defenseless in front of it. If he wasn't overconfident, he'd have just killed Tirion right after he defeated us, rather than keeping him there while gloating and resurrecting us.

We can agree on that, then. Though it wasn't really part of his grand scheme, it was just a stupid last-minute villainous blunder that he was forced to act on due to Blizzard writing themselves into a hole.

And I didn't say they wouldn't clash, that was much clear. I'm only saying Ashbringer breaking Frostmourne at the Frozen Throne compared to how it barely registered for the Lich King when he was on holy ground just didn't make any sense.

[Zulkhan]

Not related to the topic being discussed, but Arthas's plan in WoW was pretty stupid. It was good until ICC, then he decided to freeze Tirion for the sake of gloating and it backfired horribly. He should have killed Tirion the moment he got a chance, be it the first strike or right after he killed us. It's even more retarded seeing that Arthas actually knew all along that Ashbringer would eventually clash with Frostmourne and still left himself completely defenseless right before it, frozen or not...

To be fair, the trick Tirion pulled was the textbook definition of "asspull". There was no particularly logical reason behind it apart his stronk faith being stronk.

[Tripzzz]

The most effective use of it that we know is to silence spellcasters, which seems the most comfortable situation to make a proper use of it.



When it comes to you is a very fair assumption, but I'll leave it at that.



If Genn made too blatant his intention to aim at the Soulcage he would have undeniably fucked his chance up.



Which happened before he successfully managed to smash Sylvanas on the ground.



It matters not that most of his attacks missed, he needed one effective blow and that was delivered. And Sylvanas didn't really shrug it off, it may have not caused much damage but Sylvanas suffered the full force of the blow and ate the dirt because of it. It also took several moments for her to stand up, moments a Worgen fast as Genn could have easily exploited to press on the attack and potentially finish Sylvanas up for good.



Nope, he simply had to catch that Soulcage. And indeed, his move was effective enough to actually steal the thing without Sylvanas realizing it, until Genn didn't make it blatant.

The only legitimately stupid thing he did was aiming at that fucking Soulcage instead of simply jumping at Sylvanas' throat, because he had to "deny her a future" or something.



Gameplay =/= lore. Gameplay-wise, we shrug those screams off better than wind blows.



It's still the equivalent of a spell performed through her voice, so it's not anything she can make as easily as speaking. All we know of that scream is that she can use it and we saw her use it in a very different circumstance, telling us nothing about its effectiveness in situations more similar to the one shown in the cinematic.



We would need further information about the nature of Sylvanas' own phasing to understand if a comparison with an X Men's character is actually fitting. Between books and movies we saw Kitty Pride showing a wide usage of her powers, with Sylvanas we have yet to see it in the first place.

Genn literally says "I'm not in the habit of tracking prey i don't intend to kill." at the start of the zone. He sneaks up on her and then the stupidity ensues. He opens his mouth like an idiot and proclaims he "will have his vengeance. For Varian, for his son, etc." These are the Genn's exact words. I HIGHLY doubt that means simply smashing the soulcage. He wants to kill her. She wants to kill him. The cinematic made them both look like retards.

[Kallisto]

I can't take any Sylvanas stories seriously because they consist of her dodging any real consequences and everyone crawling out of the woodwork to her rescue.

You say that then follow up with.

She wouldn't have fared well in Gilneas if Garrosh didn't bail her out. And she was abhorrently incompetent against a mob of mangy dogs. Yeah, they're worgen, but also undisciplined and reckless with little tactical thought. She had her prime Forsaken forces and they performed terribly.

Basically proving your ignorance to the Forsaken vs Gilneas war. Garrosh wasn't bailing out the forsaken, he was trying to get them wiped out.

Sylvanas joining the fight and taking over saved her people due to Garrosh plan to have the Gilneas military wipe out enough Forsaken at the choke point in the wall. Then once the Forsaken win through numbers, allow the Alliance to wipe up the rest while waiting for the right moment for his Orcs to defeat the Alliance and claim the Lordaeron continent .

It wasn't some honor thing which made Garrosh ban the blight, or have a few Kor'kron oversee the forsaken front. It wasn't to bail them out either.

It was to make sure that somehow Sylvanas didn't outplay him (which she did) after she returned from Northend knowing Garrosh's plan and with her new allies.

Also about

Or is she just fueled by the amount of teenagers fapping to her image?

The only ones bringing up her gender are her detractors, everyone else tends not to mention it outside of saying her or she

[Aucald]

To be fair, the trick Tirion pulled was the textbook definition of "asspull". There was no particularly logical reason behind it apart his stronk faith being stronk.

I think Arthas had plans for Tirion as well. He didn't kill him outright but opted to freeze him because he wanted him to watch his victory - the creation of 10/25 new Scourge Generals and Death Knights, forged from Azeroth's greatest champions as the capstone to an inevitable Scourge victory across Azeroth. I think the plan was to demoralize Tirion to the point of forsaking the Light and anointing him the commander of this new army of Scourge Champions - making him possibly the ultimate echo of Athas' own fall from proverbial grace. It didn't quite work out that way, of course; Tirion popped up a unique CD then destroyed Frostmourne and the rest is history.

[Highwhale]

What about Liam Greymane? He was shot and killed by Sylvanas while trying to protect Genn. Afterwards, he was given a hasty funeral in Gilneas with Genn promising to return someday... But if Liam wasn't cremated, and was simply buried, could it be possible that Sylvanas may come back and resurrect Liam just to fuck with Genn? He didn't have the worgen curse, so he wouldn't be immune from it.

If fanboys believes right and forsaken have free will after resurrection then first thing that Liam will do after getting res is chopping off Sylvanas.

You have either ignored or never bothered to actually look at Sylvanas's story in the first place to call her a idiot or say she has no drive.

Typical Immolation's argument - you wrong and don't know lore. Meh...

She created the Forsaken kingdom of lordaron, she turned them from a rable of undead to one of the strongest forces in the EK.

Its quite fun to read how people says she great leader and tactical/general. Her few wins in wars was achieved by dirty tricks - betrayal and blackmailing. Also - creating new Forsaken kingdom was done only because Varimathas and Garithos helped her. Without them and their forces Sylvanas would lose.

Lillian Voss should never be relevant, a terrible character, the fact that some want her to be in charge of the Forsaken is hilarious.

She terrible character because she hate Forsaken and what they did with her?

To be fair, the trick Tirion pulled was the textbook definition of "asspull". There was no particularly logical reason behind it apart his stronk faith being stronk.

Yep. Don't forget Tirion pulled this trick on unholy ground where Arthas had 100% advantage.

I think Arthas had plans for Tirion as well. He didn't kill him outright but opted to freeze him because he wanted him to watch his victory - the creation of 10/25 new Scourge Generals and Death Knights, forged from Azeroth's greatest champions as the capstone to an inevitable Scourge victory across Azeroth. I think the plan was to demoralize Tirion to the point of forsaking the Light and anointing him the commander of this new army of Scourge Champions - making him possibly the ultimate echo of Athas' own fall from proverbial grace. It didn't quite work out that way, of course; Tirion popped up a unique CD then destroyed Frostmourne and the rest is history.

Arthas said Tirion will be first to kill by new champions.

[steelballfc]

Genn literally says "I'm not in the habit of tracking prey i don't intend to kill." at the start of the zone. He sneaks up on her and then the stupidity ensues. He opens his mouth like an idiot and proclaims he "will have his vengeance. For Varian, for his son, etc." These are the Genn's exact words. I HIGHLY doubt that means simply smashing the soulcage. He wants to kill her. She wants to kill him. The cinematic made them both look like retards.

they were retards before the cinematic tho.

[Aucald]

Arthas said Tirion will be first to kill by new champions.

And likely so - killed, then raised into undeath. The Lich King doesn't seem like the kind to waste a perfectly good corpse of a hero.

[Wewlad]

You say that then follow up with.



Basically proving your ignorance to the Forsaken vs Gilneas war. Garrosh wasn't bailing out the forsaken, he was trying to get them wiped out.

Sylvanas joining the fight and taking over saved her people due to Garrosh plan to have the Gilneas military wipe out enough Forsaken at the choke point in the wall. Then once the Forsaken win through numbers, allow the Alliance to wipe up the rest while waiting for the right moment for his Orcs to defeat the Alliance and claim the Lordaeron continent .

It wasn't some honor thing which made Garrosh ban the blight, or have a few Kor'kron oversee the forsaken front. It wasn't to bail them out either.

It was to make sure that somehow Sylvanas didn't outplay him (which she did) after she returned from Northend knowing Garrosh's plan and with her new allies.

Also about




The only ones bringing up her gender are her detractors, everyone else tends not to mention it outside of saying her or she

Nice headcanon there. I actually like that idea, but it isn't anything I've seen mentioned at all. So you can drop off that high horse and quit labeling people who only follow what's stated lore as "ignorant".

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nice headcanon there. I actually like that idea, but it isn't anything I've seen mentioned at all. So you can drop off that high horse and quit labeling people who only follow what's stated lore as "ignorant".

he pretty much flat out states they are to be a highway for the rest of the Horde, later we see he abandons them to die in a vision. Just because you didn't know something, doesn't mean its headcanon.