Do you think Sylvanas vs Genn conflict is over in Legion?

[Ham on Rye]

So does that mean Sylvanas vs Genn conflict is over in Legion?

It will be over when Greymane and the rest of his canine abominations are dead.

FOR THE HORDE

[Wewlad]

he pretty much flat out states they are to be a highway for the rest of the Horde, later we see he abandons them to die in a vision. Just because you didn't know something, doesn't mean its headcanon.

Except it's not outright stated anywhere that he wanted them to all die, so while it might be good conjecture, it's still conjecture.

Canon can't merely be implied, it has to be stated fact.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Except it's not outright stated anywhere that he wanted them to all die, so while it might be good conjecture, it's still conjecture.

Canon can't merely be implied, it has to be stated fact.

in that case Its obvious he hated the Forsaken, and from the Sylvanas's vision we see he had no problem with leaving the Forsaken to be killed by the Alliance. Combined with the fact that he was throwing away forsaken forces on the initial attack of Gilnaes and not letting them use the ace in their sleave. Only someone belligerently ignorant of the situation would not see Garrosh's intentions.

[Wewlad]

in that case Its obvious he hated the Forsaken, and from the Sylvanas's vision we see he had no problem with leaving the Forsaken to be killed by the Alliance. Combined with the fact that he was throwing away forsaken forces on the initial attack of Gilnaes and not letting them use the ace in their sleave. Only someone belligerently ignorant of the situation would not see Garrosh's intentions.

Except there is another possibility, that Garrosh simply doesn't think the Forsaken are in any real trouble as a whole. This is before Silverpine, so he probably wasn't aware of how dire their situation may be until Sylvanas informs him. So, perhaps not complete malice, but rather ignorance on his part.

This is the problem with making an assumption and presuming it to be true, that one tends to ignore other possibilities. Hence why I don't presume speculation to be true, as while it's fun, people begin taking it way too far because they're easily convinced of their own personal perspectives.

And this is all after Sylvanas and the Forsaken were having extreme problems with tackling an undisciplined mob of Gilneans, not nearly all of which are worgen.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Except there is another possibility, that Garrosh simply doesn't think the Forsaken are in any real trouble as a whole. This is before Silverpine, so he probably wasn't aware of how dire their situation may be until Sylvanas informs him. So, perhaps not complete malice, but rather ignorance on his part.

he flat out tells them they are supposed to die and be a highway for the rest of the Horde. It seems a bit stupid, even for him.

[Mehrunes]

It's still the equivalent of a spell performed through her voice, so it's not anything she can make as easily as speaking. All we know of that scream is that she can use it and we saw her use it in a very different circumstance, telling us nothing about its effectiveness in situations more similar to the one shown in the cinematic.

I don't recall anything particular in terms of requirements for her scream in Rise of the Lich King despite it being probably the most potent Banshee scream uttered by her.

We would need further information about the nature of Sylvanas' own phasing to understand if a comparison with an X Men's character is actually fitting. Between books and movies we saw Kitty Pride showing a wide usage of her powers, with Sylvanas we have yet to see it in the first place.

There are different portrayals indeed, but they still have common themes. Like it being instant.

Like I said, Arthas' (as the Lich King) plan in WoW made sense from a genre savvy POV, and in service of his plan, he was completely successful until Tirion decided to activate his plot-given power. Not to mention that he is a different character as the Lich King. WoW's storytelling can be abysmal, but he wasn't horrifically ruined as some people like to think. They just couldn't grasp how meta his plan was.

From logical standpoint Arthas' plan made no sense though. An army that can steamroll everyone else and doesn't do it because their leader wants to get the strongest enemies first despite it being a given anyway should he go with the steamrolling is nothing but idiocy.

To be fair, the trick Tirion pulled was the textbook definition of "asspull". There was no particularly logical reason behind it apart his stronk faith being stronk.

Well, more like textbook definition of deus ex machina, which is even worse.

I think Arthas had plans for Tirion as well. He didn't kill him outright but opted to freeze him because he wanted him to watch his victory - the creation of 10/25 new Scourge Generals and Death Knights, forged from Azeroth's greatest champions as the capstone to an inevitable Scourge victory across Azeroth. I think the plan was to demoralize Tirion to the point of forsaking the Light and anointing him the commander of this new army of Scourge Champions - making him possibly the ultimate echo of Athas' own fall from proverbial grace. It didn't quite work out that way, of course; Tirion popped up a unique CD then destroyed Frostmourne and the rest is history.

He outright said he dropped his plans he had for Tirion for Bolvar and that he will make us kill Tirion first for extra irony.

[Wewlad]

he flat out tells them they are supposed to die and be a highway for the rest of the Horde. It seems a bit stupid, even for him.

Could you provide a link to the source? I have yet to come across this.

[Mehrunes]

If fanboys believes right and forsaken have free will after resurrection then first thing that Liam will do after getting res is chopping off Sylvanas.

It's not an issue of belief and it doesn't take a fanboy for that. It's an issue of having eyes and it takes being able to read. In this case, Word of God stating that to be the case.

Its quite fun to read how people says she great leader and tactical/general. Her few wins in wars was achieved by dirty tricks - betrayal and blackmailing. Also - creating new Forsaken kingdom was done only because Varimathas and Garithos helped her. Without them and their forces Sylvanas would lose.

Yeah, that's exactly why she became Ranger General of Quel'thalas. Also, she had Varimathras' troops because she beat him before. And her betrayal of Garithos is inconsequential to her winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands.

[Aucald]

He outright said he dropped his plans he had for Tirion for Bolvar and that he will make us kill Tirion first for extra irony.

In keeping with this particular branch of thought that would be to further demoralize him. Given his status as Lich King he could do everything he said (have the heroes kill Tirion and convert Bolvar) *then* raise Tirion's body and trap his soul in service to the Scourge. I don't consider Bolvar an equal replacement for Tirion so I'd imagine there's no reason why the Lich King would pass up a unique chance to break and enslave Tirion as well.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Could you provide a link to the source? I have yet to come across this.

"But you can't just send them right into the central breach in the wall," Lydon
continued. "It's a… a chokepoint. Well fortified, closely watched. Heavy armored troops
on horseback couldn't maneuver through the breach: they'd be mown down by
musketfire from the debris. Surely you can see—"
"Of course I see!" Garrosh answered. "The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked
down. This is what your kind is good for." Now the warchief looked directly at the
master apothecary, his cool eyes fixated on the pale yellow light that filled the latter's
eye sockets. "You're already corpses, nearly impossible to kill. You flood the chokepoint,
you open the way for the rest of the Horde to come through, fresh and eager. Rushing
over a bridge of broken bodies if we have to. This is how fortifications are breached.
How wars are won."

from Sylvanas's short story

[Highwhale]

And her betrayal of Garithos is inconsequential to her winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands.

She war criminal and self proclaimed leader. At the moment Garithos was one of the last (if not the last) left Lordaeron high ranking. She made deal with him - he helps end scourge and get the Lordaeron. She betrayed him and took the land for herself and Forsaken who law wise can be counted as rebels.

It's not an issue of belief and it doesn't take a fanboy for that. It's an issue of having eyes and it takes being able to read. In this case, Word of God stating that to be the case.

Oh yeah. Say it to Westfall farmers in EPL.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She war criminal and self proclaimed leader. At the moment Garithos was one of the last (if not the last) left Lordaeron high ranking. She made deal with him - he helps end scourge and get the Lordaeron. She betrayed him and took the land for herself and Forsaken who law wise can be counted as rebels.

Pretty sure Forsaken law does not count the Forsaken themselves as rebels.

Oh yeah. Say it to Westfall farmers in EPL.

Some decided to be forsaken. Complain however you want, its canon.

[Wewlad]

"But you can't just send them right into the central breach in the wall," Lydon
continued. "It's a… a chokepoint. Well fortified, closely watched. Heavy armored troops
on horseback couldn't maneuver through the breach: they'd be mown down by
musketfire from the debris. Surely you can see—"
"Of course I see!" Garrosh answered. "The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked
down. This is what your kind is good for." Now the warchief looked directly at the
master apothecary, his cool eyes fixated on the pale yellow light that filled the latter's
eye sockets. "You're already corpses, nearly impossible to kill. You flood the chokepoint,
you open the way for the rest of the Horde to come through, fresh and eager. Rushing
over a bridge of broken bodies if we have to. This is how fortifications are breached.
How wars are won."

from Sylvanas's short story

It really reads more akin to ignorance of the Forsaken plight. He also clarifies that they're nearly impossible to kill.

TBH why should he prioritize Forsaken "lives" over those of still-living fighters? They are, indeed, already corpses.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It really reads more akin to ignorance of the Forsaken plight. He also clarifies that they're nearly impossible to kill.

TBH why should he prioritize Forsaken "lives" over those of still-living fighters? They are, indeed, already corpses.

why would he throw away the lives of the Forsaken instead of letting them solve the problem with no lives lost on their end? TBH


we see him drop the whole honor thing the moment it suits him, blowing up a town instead of fighting till its secure, the only reason he didnt let them use the blight is because more forsaken died without it.

[Kallisto]

It really reads more akin to ignorance of the Forsaken plight. He also clarifies that they're nearly impossible to kill.

"Rushing over a bridge of broken bodies if we have to." this line alone is basically saying "Yeah I know you'll die, that's the point.". He's not ignorant. That's a commander who wants to kill off as many as his own side as possible kind of line to say.

TBH why should he prioritize Forsaken "lives" over those of still-living fighters? They are, indeed, already corpses.

Well for one the living when killed can be reraised. But another question should be why should a Forsaken life be of less importance? They're a sentient species who have as much right to exist as every other cursed race in the EK.

But like FI said, why have any unnecessary casualties in a world in which mages have multiple times cast spells in which are essentially minor nukes, or warlocks in which some of their spells are soul destroying?

- - - Updated - - -

She war criminal and self proclaimed leader. At the moment Garithos was one of the last (if not the last) left Lordaeron high ranking. She made deal with him - he helps end scourge and get the Lordaeron. She betrayed him and took the land for herself and Forsaken who law wise can be counted as rebels.

She was likely also aware in some way of how Garithos treats anything not human. I doubt the scourge were unaware of his treatment of Blood Elves. Essentially she stabbed him in the back to stop him stabbing her in the back.

Oh yeah. Say it to Westfall farmers in EPL.

Westfall farmers like every other Forsaken are there under their own free will. If they didn't want to be caught in a conflict maybe they should have petitioned Varian into realising Westfall is pretty much the best farm land, not some farms right under the nose of the enemy 1000s of miles away in another continent.

[Wewlad]

why would he throw away the lives of the Forsaken instead of letting them solve the problem with no lives lost on their end? TBH


we see him drop the whole honor thing the moment it suits him, blowing up a town instead of fighting till its secure, the only reason he didnt let them use the blight is because more forsaken died without it.

I can't really defend Garrosh so much, but unless the Forsaken had another plan in the works, it doesn't look as though they were going to get anywhere on their own. As for blowing up Theramore, it was evacuated for the most part. And Jaina is to blame for continually inciting the Horde by supplying the Alliance and building infrastructure to their advantage while pretending to be "neutral" so Garrosh had good reason to do simply wipe it off the map.

And there is a difference between a mana bomb which pretty much just vaporizes everything in its radius, and inflicting immeasurable pain that is drawn out. Wrathgate comes to mind.

@Kallisto - You gave me a good chuckle there.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I can't really defend Garrosh so much, but unless the Forsaken had another plan in the works, it doesn't look as though they were going to get anywhere on their own. As for blowing up Theramore, it was evacuated for the most part. And Jaina is to blame for continually inciting the Horde by supplying the Alliance and building infrastructure to their advantage while pretending to be "neutral" so Garrosh had good reason to do simply wipe it off the map.

oh don't take it the wrong way, im not saying Theramore was innocent and didnt deserve the attack, but garrosh didnt let the civvies escape out of the goodness of his heart, he had to wait for more Alliance to show up. The forsaken's other plan was to basically blight bomb the Gilnaens fortifications, forcing them to flee basically ending the siege.

And there is a difference between a mana bomb which pretty much just vaporizes everything in its radius, and inflicting immeasurable pain that is drawn out. Wrathgate comes to mind.

I've said it before in other threads, the blight kills in seconds, compared to many other ways of death in WoW it is merciful. Maybe the Forsaken should have just mana bombed the walls of gilnaes instead.

[Wewlad]

oh don't take it the wrong way, im not saying Theramore was innocent and didnt deserve the attack, but garrosh didnt let the civvies escape out of the goodness of his heart, he had to wait for more Alliance to show up. The forsaken's other plan was to basically blight bomb the Gilnaens fortifications, forcing them to flee basically ending the siege.



I've said it before in other threads, the blight kills in seconds, compared to many other ways of death in WoW it is merciful. Maybe the Forsaken should have just mana bombed the walls of gilnaes instead.

There is a big difference between seconds and instant vaporization. Not to mention that some will stand it for longer, as Bolvar did. The Wrathgate cinematic definitely doesn't present it as anything but horrible though I do know about the differing strains so that scenario wouldn't occur all the time.

If only they had the Iris before ToW. Or some of Kael'thas' followers who were conjuring smaller mana bombs.

I'll give Sylvanas this, she at least has had the most "natural" character development compared with Garrosh who the writers couldn't decide what he was supposed to be. So she is one of the more "solid" characters—just not quite so competent as she's made out to be. Yet I will also give her the fact she did take advantage of the opportunities presented to her as convenient they were.

[Highwhale]

Pretty sure Forsaken law does not count the Forsaken themselves as rebels.

Its not about Forsaken laws. They don't exist as faction at this time (W3 TFT). Its about Lordaeron laws - Sylvanas took land for herself and free willed part of the Scourge. I called them as rebels because you could throw - Forsaken is citizens of Lordaeron too - argument.

Westfall farmers like every other Forsaken are there under their own free will.

They wasn't at the moment of battle.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Its not about Forsaken laws. They don't exist as faction at this time (W3 TFT). Its about Lordaeron laws - Sylvanas took land for herself and free willed part of the Scourge. I called them as rebels because you could throw - Forsaken is citizens of Lordaeron too - argument.

They did exist as a faction at that point, not nearly as bound as they would become but they had still formed, they had driven Arthas off afterall. And again, who cares that they took the land from Garithos. I mean you obviously do but that still doesnt make them rebels. You can't be rebels if there was no government or kingdom left.

They wasn't at the moment of battle.

and those who wouldn't want to be forsaken would shortly find themselves dead again. Again, no one remains undead unless they want to.