Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Friendlyimmolation]

Aren't the Blood Elves essentially just a bunch of fancily dressed drug addicts? Probably not the best show pony as far as Blizzard and the storytelling is concerned.

compared to humans who are just as boring as orcs? high elves that only pop up when there needs to be a quick antagonist to the blood elves, or the night elves who are pretty much opposite of the Blood elves as far as magic is concerned. Who else would you have picked for the part of the Horde side in Surumar?

[Combatbutler]

, and also assisted Iridi in destroying the Twilight Dragon/Abomination Dargonax in "Night of the Dragon."

I wouldn't use Night of the dragon to highlight Vereesa's abilities, considering she was on the sidelines pretty much the entire book, being the good trophy wife.

Vareesa was also employed by Varian's forces during the Siege of Orgrimmar in the fight against Galakras and the True Horde opposition at Bladefist Bay.

Yes she was present, that doesn't make her something special though considering pretty much everyone marched against Orgrimmar.

She was also tapped by Halduron to supplement his forces at a resurgent Zul'Aman, a move that speaks highly over her overall competence in that he risked political upset in doing so and wouldn't have made such a unilateral move without good purpose.

This had little to do with Vereesa herself, but rather with the fact that the farstriders were stretched thin at the time and he needed additional Soldiers, who knew the land. He even tells that to the courier. So it was about her Rangers.

She was the best of her Farstrider training group according to "Day of the Dragon,"

Which still doesn't say much, as far as we know there were no great rangers among that group so there is a good chance she is only average, especially considering how she was utterly wrecked by sylvanas in Warcrimes.

I'm not the biggest fan of Vareesa either, but I don't think her situation is really anywhere close to that of Garithos.

Her windrunner name got her the support for the Silver covenant, before Halduron became ranger general it had always been a Windrunner.

[Aucald]

I wouldn't use Night of the dragon to highlight Vereesa's abilities, considering she was on the sidelines pretty much the entire book, being the good trophy wife.

Are you thinking of the "War of the Ancients" trilogy when she was pregnant? Vareesa was actually quite a part of "Night of the Dragon" - hunting down her cousin Zendarin who had kidnapped her children and colliding with Iridi and her mission at Grim Batol.

Yes she was present, that doesn't make her something special though considering pretty much everyone marched against Orgrimmar.

A bit more than present as she participated in the action and was instrumental in the encounter. Discounting her presence alone would akin to saying that Varian himself was just present, as was Sylvanas, or even Garrosh.

This had little to do with her Vereesa herself, but rather with the fact that the farstriders at the time were stretched thin and he needed additional bodies, who knew the land. He even tells that to the courier. So it was about her Rangers.

Her Rangers which we're pretty far away from Quel'thalas at the time. If Halduron simply needed to supplement his forces it would've been easier to call on the nearby and allied Deathguard in Lordaeron. He wanted Farstriders and Vareesa specifically - which, in my view, speaks to her and her contingent's abilities more than just wanting warm bodies as it were.

Which still doesn't say much, as far as we know thewre were no great rangers among that group so there is a good chance she is only average, especially considering how she was utterly wrecked by sylvanas in Warcrimes.

I don't recall Sylvanas and Vareesa fighting in "War Crimes?" She informed Sylvanas of her final intentions not to go through with the plot to poison Garrosh via a letter, and after that I don't recall them encountering one-another again. I may have forgotten something that happens in the hectic fight with the time-echoes that get summoned using the Vision of Time - but I don't think so?

[Combatbutler]

Are you thinking of the "War of the Ancients" trilogy when she was pregnant? Vareesa was actually quite a part of "Night of the Dragon" - hunting down her cousin Zendarin who had kidnapped her children and colliding with Iridi and her mission at Grim Batol.

Nope no mix up, she gets herself captured early on gets busted out, due to rhonins lovely trinket has some exchange with her once most favorite relative Zendarin, because both were the odd ones of thefamily, whom she has come to despise etc.

A bit more than present as she participated in the action and was instrumental in the encounter. Discounting her presence alone would akin to saying that Varian himself was just present, as was Sylvanas, or even Garrosh.

I really wouldn't call her instrumental, the ones being of utmost importance during that encounter would be Jaina for Alliance and Aethas for horde. And the ones coming up with the strategy, the rest was just there.

Her Rangers which we're pretty far away from Quel'thalas at the time. If Halduron simply needed to supplement his forces it would've been easier to call on the nearby and allied Deathguard in Lordaeron. He wanted Farstriders and Vareesa specifically - which, in my view, speaks to her and her contingent's abilities more than just wanting warm bodies as it were.

He wanted people, who knew the land and Vereesa's rangers patrolled the ghostlands for centuries or even millenia. This was a precision strike mission after all, so again it wasn't Vereesa herself, but rather what she had.

I don't recall Sylvanas and Vareesa fighting in "War Crimes?" She informed Sylvanas of her final intentions not to go through with the plot to poison Garrosh via a letter, and after that I don't recall them encountering one-another again. I may have forgotten something that happens in the hectic fight with the time-echoes that get summoned using the Vision of Time - but I don't think so?

She draws her bow and spins around to shoot something she heard behind her, only to realize the arrow she let loose is gone, because Sylvanas shot it out of her drawn bow in an instant. Telling her she doesn't need to shoot this banshee.

[Hellrime]

compared to humans who are just as boring as orcs? high elves that only pop up when there needs to be a quick antagonist to the blood elves, or the night elves who are pretty much opposite of the Blood elves as far as magic is concerned. Who else would you have picked for the part of the Horde side in Surumar?

Neither Alliance, nor Horde to be honest, the story should really pull away from faction-centric story telling as we're there to stop the Legion. It should build up the actual threat, not show one side or the other as a dominant faction or any particular race. Ultimately that doesn't really get to the core of the reason we're even there.

[Koryn123]

Neither Alliance, nor Horde to be honest, the story should really pull away from faction-centric story telling as we're there to stop the Legion. It should build up the actual threat, not show one side or the other as a dominant faction or any particular race. Ultimately that doesn't really get to the core of the reason we're even there.

I think it's much better to involve the elven factions. It's all about elves, until Khadgar shows up and steals the spotlight because he's an attention whore.

Tauren got to talk to the Taunka and bring them into the Horde, orcs got pretty much everything interacting with the WoD orcs who joined us, Vol'jin gets to interact with Zandalari, Draenei with the Broken in Outland, Bronzebeards with the Dark Irons, etc.

Why wouldn't Blizzard want to explore a very prominent connection by having the Nightborne/Nightfallen interact with their closest relatives both by blood and by culture?


It would be so incredibly stupid if the orcs and humans showed up and were the main players in Suramar, or the Kirin Tor.

[Aucald]

Nope no mix up, she gets herself captured early on gets busted out, due to rhonins lovely trinket has some exchange with her once most favorite relative Zendarin, because both were the odd ones of thefamily, whom she has come to despise etc.

Getting captured early in the story doesn't relegate her to a non-entity. She was still present for most of the plot and its climax with Dargonax (because she felt a debt to Iridi for Zendarin having murdered her associate).

I really wouldn't call her instrumental, the ones being of utmost importance during that encounter would be Jaina for Alliance and Aethas for horde. And the ones coming up with the strategy, the rest was just there.

Instrumental would be more a subjective judgment - but she was still featured beyond just a cameo.

He wanted people, who knew the land and Vereesa's rangers patrolled the ghostlands for centuries or even millenia. This was a precision strike mission after all, so again it wasn't Vereesa herself, but rather what she had.

I agree, but I'm unsure how you divorce this from her as a person? He wanted her knowledge and expertise with the region as part of a precision strike mission.

She draws her bow and spins around to shoot something she heard behind her, only to realize the arrow she let loose is gone, because Sylvanas shot it out of her drawn bow in an instant. Telling her she doesn't need to shoot this banshee.

I didn't recall that, but I wouldn't really say Sylvanas "owned" her, either. That sounds like more of a set-piece that underpins that Sylvanas is still the superior archer or Ranger, but that doesn't relegate Vareesa to being unskilled herself.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I didn't recall that, but I wouldn't really say Sylvanas "owned" her, either. That sounds like more of a set-piece that underpins that Sylvanas is still the superior archer or Ranger, but that doesn't relegate Vareesa to being unskilled herself.

The point is, we have never seen Vereesa being particularly talented in anything, none of her in game appearance or in the books have her perform any feats of extreme skill, she still was just the token elf archer married to a human. And frankly, a bit insulting (not to me, to the blood elves) to try to say it would be good to have her rejoin silvermoon, and makes the blood elves seem dumber for it.

[Combatbutler]

Getting captured early in the story doesn't relegate her to a non-entity. She was still present for most of the plot and its climax with Dargonax (because she felt a debt to Iridi for Zendarin having murdered her associate).

I never contested, that she wasn't present, but rather that she was truly instrumental, she always played the background fidel.

Instrumental would be more a subjective judgment - but she was still featured beyond just a cameo.

She has no dialogue during the encounter, she is just there.

I agree, but I'm unsure how you divorce this from her as a person? He wanted her knowledge and expertise with the region as part of a precision strike mission.

Because she hasn't that much experience to begin with, she is still quite young, heck she had never seen a troll until the second war, now compare that to more experienced farstriders, that fought amani for centuries in her ranks. Vereesa is a very young farstrider, there isn't much expertise and knowledge of the land to be had.

I didn't recall that, but I wouldn't really say Sylvanas "owned" her, either. That sounds like more of a set-piece that underpins that Sylvanas is still the superior archer or Ranger, but that doesn't relegate Vareesa to being unskilled herself.

It sets up a comparison between the sisters and Vereesa doesn't even come close in terms of Archery towards sylvanas, which hammers home my point that Vereesa is the runt of the Windrunner bloodline and because of said bloodline gets more support from high elves, despite not being on par with the bloodline.

[Wewlad]

The point is, we have never seen Vereesa being particularly talented in anything, none of her in game appearance or in the books have her perform any feats of extreme skill, she still was just the token elf archer married to a human. And frankly, a bit insulting (not to me, to the blood elves) to try to say it would be good to have her rejoin silvermoon, and makes the blood elves seem dumber for it.

Only thing I remember her doing is leading the purge of Dalaran, but that isn't exactly an outstanding achievement.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Only thing I remember her doing is leading the purge of Dalaran, but that isn't exactly an outstanding achievement.

its a pretty cool thing to go kill civilians let me tell you, shes almost probably as skilled as Garrosh in doing that.

[Aucald]

The point is, we have never seen Vereesa being particularly talented in anything, none of her in game appearance or in the books have her perform any feats of extreme skill, she still was just the token elf archer married to a human. And frankly, a bit insulting (not to me, to the blood elves) to try to say it would be good to have her rejoin silvermoon, and makes the blood elves seem dumber for it.

Veressa's never had a real moment to showcase her abilities, or lack thereof, within WoW. She's not quite alone in that boat, though. Halduron has a very small footprint, so does Gallywix (himself a faction leader), and Lor'themar himself was a complete unknown until his showing in the Thunder Isle. I think a lot of people are letting their honestly acquired dislike of her simultaneously strip her of all importance entirely. If the rift between the High and Blood Elves is ever to be closed then I think Veressa will have to be part of that.

[Combatbutler]

Veressa's never had a real moment to showcase her abilities, or lack thereof, within WoW. She's not quite alone in that boat, though. Halduron has a very small footprint, so does Gallywix (himself a faction leader), and Lor'themar himself was a complete unknown until his showing in the Thunder Isle. I think a lot of people are letting their honestly acquired dislike of her simultaneously strip her of all importance entirely. If the rift between the High and Blood Elves is ever to be closed then I think Veressa will have to be part of that.

Vereesa is pretty much the equivalent of Scout captain elsia in terms of ability, a bit worse, if we compare these two ingame. Though she is the better ranger than lor'thmear the guy has only one eye left after all. But she herself is nothing special, she is well most of the time just there, whether it is in books or ingame.

[Aucald]

I never contested, that she wasn't present, but rather that she was truly instrumental, she always played the background fidel. She has no dialogue during the encounter, she is just there.

She and her forces participate in the encounter, assisting in killing waves and in the objective itself. She also received a graphical update for that appearance itself, which seems to denote to me that her presence was intended to be important.

Because she hasn't that much experience to begin with, she is still quite young, heck she had never seen a troll until the second war, now compare that to more experienced farstriders, that fought amani for centuries in her ranks. Vereesa is a very young farstrider, there isn't much expertise and knowledge of the land to be had.

She's still their leader and the most elite in their ranks. Unless the implication that her position is entirely due to her connections and she has absolutely zero skill to leverage? I don't think the Farstriders as a group would go for that, given the givens.

It sets up a comparison between the sisters and Vereesa doesn't even come close in terms of Archery towards sylvanas, which hammers home my point that Vereesa is the runt of the Windrunner bloodline and because of said bloodline gets more support from high elves, despite not being on par with the bloodline.

It establishes that Sylvanas is still the superior combatant, sure - I only disagree that that means Vereesa is inept as the "runt of the Wildrunner bloodline." There seems to be a dichotomy of extremes going on. Vereesa can still be a highly competent or even a superior Ranger while also still not being up to same level of skill as Sylvanas (or even Alleria). She might be the least of the three Windrunner sisters, but given what we know of her other two sisters that's still saying a lot.

[Mehrunes]

Theramore was helping an entire race save their ancestral forest from being grinded into ruin by the Horde? Is that supposed to make them evil? Is that supposed to make them bad? I don't understand the logic behind this; are you actually trying to say that defending someone from someone who is attacking them, grabbing their land and destroying it is a bad thing?

You are attempting to twist a benevolent effort - the defense of one's ancestral land and preservation of nature - into something that is bad, which it certainly wasn't. Ever since Warcraft III, the orcs were savagely and aggresively encroaching on night elven territories.

If you see nothing wrong in invading someone's land, taking their settlements over, burning them down(First/Second War Horde scenario all over again) and destroying the nature which is one of the native's populace most sacred symbols, then continuing this discussion is pointless to begin with.

Benevolent effort indeed. That's why Northwatch aggression occurred before invasion of Ashenvale. And you talk about twisting, lel. And Orcs have been savagely and aggressively encroaching on Elven territories in W3? That's amazing claim you got there, but in the real world, W3 Orcs encroached on Night Elven land because they didn't know it belonged to anyone, then defended themselves after Night Elves used arrows without warning (and they did the same thing to humans prior to that). Then they allied together, ignoring that incident, to defeat the Legion.

I'd argue that trying to mend fences in the first place speaks to their value to Silvermoon, if nothing else. Though given more recent developments Lor'themar's position on the High Elven contingent might've changed (or not, since he lays the Purge of Dalaran pretty squarely at Garrosh's feet with only a minor barb at Jaina). The Silver Covenant are also the most partisan faction of High Elves in that they are pretty solidly connected to the Alliance - that might've been a factor in his attempt to stop them from participating in the second Zul'Aman campaign alongside Halduron's Farstrider forces. If the High Elves as a group, or represented by its less-martial factions, pressed for re-entry into Quel'thalas I'd think the odds are good that they'd be readmitted. Rommath wouldn't be for it, Halduron would obviously be for it given his words at Zul'Aman, and Lor'themar would be more neutral but guilt would probably push him in the direction of allowing it. No idea if Liadrin has a say in Blood Elven politics but as she's now a Paladin and devotee of the Light once more she would also probably push for reconciliation with her former people.

Given how the exile has been weighting on Lor'themar's shoulders for years, I'd say he did it mostly for the sake of his conscience. If it was their value, why wasn't the olive branch extended to the leader of the biggest High Elf organisation (and potentially said organisation as well), despite Vereesa not even taking part in the schism political turmoil since she was already being Rhonin's baby factory at the time?

[Aucald]

Given how the exile has been weighting on Lor'themar's shoulders for years, I'd say he did it mostly for the sake of his conscience. If it was their value, why wasn't the olive branch extended to the leader of the biggest High Elf organisation (and potentially said organisation as well), despite Vereesa not even taking part in the schism political turmoil since she was already being Rhonin's baby factory at the time?

I assume he spoke with Renthar and Aurora because they were both closer to Silvermoon and also in more dire straits than the High Elven contingent in Dalaran. His immediate concern was to provide both resources and security to Quel'Lithien Lodge to help them with the Scourge remnants in the area. I don't doubt that he was primarily motivated by his own regrets (especially in regard to the High Elves at Quel'Lithien, who he put in the line of fire due to the exile), but Lor'themar also wouldn't pursue such a course without it also benefiting the Blood Elven people. If he thought reintroducing the High Elves to Silvermoon would be a net negative he wouldn't have acted based on the same logic he used to exile them in the first place.

[Mehrunes]

Her Rangers which we're pretty far away from Quel'thalas at the time. If Halduron simply needed to supplement his forces it would've been easier to call on the nearby and allied Deathguard in Lordaeron. He wanted Farstriders and Vareesa specifically - which, in my view, speaks to her and her contingent's abilities more than just wanting warm bodies as it were.

As Combat said, Halduron wanted someoen with knowledge of the land. Most Forsaken with knowledge of Quel'thalas were from Tranquillien and those never ventured in the Zul'aman area for what we know and instead focused on the Scourge threat.

[Combatbutler]

She and her forces participate in the encounter, assisting in killing waves and in the objective itself. She also received a graphical update for that appearance itself, which seems to denote to me that her presence was intended to be important.

And? Again pretty much anyone marched on Orgrimmar, but she got no Audio lines.

She's still their leader and the most elite in their ranks. Unless the implication that her position is entirely due to her connections and she has absolutely zero skill to leverage? I don't think the Farstriders as a group would go for that, given the givens.

She is their leader but her being the most skilled among the bunch, highly doubtful. I never said she has no skill, just that her skill isn't remarkable, this is a big difference

It establishes that Sylvanas is still the superior combatant, sure - I only disagree that that means Vereesa is inept as the "runt of the Wildrunner bloodline." There seems to be a dichotomy of extremes going on. Vereesa can still be a highly competent or even a superior Ranger while also still not being up to same level of skill as Sylvanas (or even Alleria). She might be the least of the three Windrunner sisters, but given what we know of her other two sisters that's still saying a lot.

Yet we have never seen anything displayed in that direction, quite the opposite actually.

[Aucald]

As Combat said, Halduron wanted someoen with knowledge of the land. Most Forsaken with knowledge of Quel'thalas were from Tranquillien and those never ventured in the Zul'aman area for what we know and instead focused on the Scourge threat.

I agreed, I just don't agree that Vereesa is their useless or totally inept leader. I don't think the Farstriders would permit such in their ranks regardless of their notable family, and definitely wouldn't let them ascend to the rank of Ranger-General. More likely I think dislike of Vereesa has also made people essentially dehumanize her to make it easier to lampoon her. Vereesa has done some boneheaded things in her time, that's not even up for debate - but I don't think that makes her either useless or pointless (and also puts her in some luminary company in the Warcraft universe, like Thrall putting Garrosh in charge of the Horde).

- - - Updated - - -

And? Again pretty much anyone marched on Orgrimmar, but she got no Audio lines.

I don't have anything to add - it's your assessment as to whether being part of the campaign and in the thick of action is important or not.

She is their leader but her being the most skilled among the bunch, highly doubtful. I never said she has no skill, just that her skill isn't remarkable, this is a big difference

Yet we have never seen anything displayed in that direction, quite the opposite actually.

Given the lack of actual in-game portrayals I'd have to say we can't really know, we can only infer from external material like the comics or novels. It's a curious omission on Blizzard's part - but in the end I guess the ultimate determination is subject to one's personal views.

[Combatbutler]

I don't have anything to add - it's your assessment as to whether being part of the campaign and in the thick of action is important or not.

I consider half of the characters being there just being there for showing their face, so Vereesa is not alone in that regard.

Given the lack of actual in-game portrayals I'd have to say we can't really know, we can only infer from external material like the comics or novels. It's a curious omission on Blizzard's part - but in the end I guess the ultimate determination is subject to one's personal views.

What we have of her simply doesn't paint her as the superior Marksman and commander.