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  1. #501
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    Which, at the end of the day, is engineering made into a class.
    Which is like saying that Mages is enchanting made into a class since both are magic based.

    No. It's a bad idea and contributes to the bloat this game already suffers.
    The game feels bloated because of the high amount of melee, and the samey feel among many of the classes. The benefit of a technology based class is that it would be different thematically from any other class in the game, and potentially fill the desire for a second physical ranged class after Hunters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    One hour... for every twelve hours (I think).
    Paladins have Divine Steed.

    No, it sounds like a very backwards idea. "Hey! Let's get something a big portion of our player base has been asking for a long time... and give it to the least liked races in the game! Genius!!" That idea is going to piss off more people than make them happy, especially since it was something promised since WotLK.
    I disagree. I think giving Gnomes and Goblins a cool class that people would want to play would actually make them a more popular race. Heck, part of the appeal of Night Elves were their Archers, Druids, and Illidan Stormrage.

    Like I said before, part of the problem with Goblins and Gnomes is that in lore you see multiple examples of them piloting mechs, and then you pick one and there's no way to live out that fantasy. I mean, Gazlowe and Gelbin are pretty popular characters. There's tons of fan art for both characters.

  2. #502
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Paladins have Divine Steed.
    That lasts for THREE WHOLE SECONDS on a forty-five second cooldown, unless you talented it for two charges. Three seconds. Not exactly 'mount combat', especially when 1.5 seconds of those three seconds you wait on the GCD to reset after using Divine Steed.

    I disagree. I think giving Gnomes and Goblins a cool class that people would want to play would actually make them a more popular race.
    Would it make the gnomes and goblins more popular? It's likely so. But! At the same time, it'll likely make said class class much less popular than it could be since it gets restricted to the two least liked races after the pandaren. In other words, it's very, very likely that being restricted to the gnomes and goblins will harm the class' popularity more than it'll benefit those races' popularity.

    Heck, part of the appeal of Night Elves were their Archers, Druids, and Illidan Stormrage.
    And part of the appeal of the Night Elves were that they weren't tiny, ugly, stumpy, malformed lawn gnomes/gremlins with voices that make the harpies' shrill feel pleasant to the ears.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #503
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That lasts for THREE WHOLE SECONDS on a forty-five second cooldown, unless you talented it for two charges. Three seconds. Not exactly 'mount combat', especially when 1.5 seconds of those three seconds you wait on the GCD to reset after using Divine Steed.
    And in PvP the duration is doubled, and there's an offensive ability added to it.

    Either way, still mounted combat.


    Would it make the gnomes and goblins more popular? It's likely so. But! At the same time, it'll likely make said class class much less popular than it could be since it gets restricted to the two least liked races after the pandaren. In other words, it's very, very likely that being restricted to the gnomes and goblins will harm the class' popularity more than it'll benefit those races' popularity.
    You can say the same thing about Demon Hunters. Anytime you limit it to two races, you'll likely make said class less popular than it could be if it was less restricted. However, just like DHs fit better with elves, a mech-based class fits best with Gnomes and Goblins.

    In the end, you have an extremely popular concept, and potentially an extremely popular class that perfectly fits two WoW races that could use some love. Seems like a win-win. If you hate Goblins and Gnomes, you'll likely also hate the idea of technology in WoW, so a tech-class probably wouldn't appeal to you anyway.

  4. #504
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You can say the same thing about Demon Hunters.
    No, we can't. One, because not only there were lore specifically saying that only Night Elves and Blood Elves were Demon Hunters, but the class was "restricted" to two of the three most popular races in the whole game. Night Elves, prior to Legion, accounted for around 28-30% of the Alliance population, with Humans being 30-32%, with the remaining being distributed among the other races. The third most played race in the Alliance, the Draenei, are only a meager 12%. Whereas on the Horde, the Blood Elves had surpassed Orcs as the most played race, being over 35% of the population before DHs, against a meager 18% of the second place, the Orcs.

    Restricting the DHs to just the elves did more good than harm to the class, because the two races it is restricted to were already widely popular to begin with.

    In the end, you have an extremely popular concept, and potentially an extremely popular class that perfectly fits two WoW races that could use some love. Seems like a win-win. If you hate Goblins and Gnomes, you'll likely also hate the idea of technology in WoW, so a tech-class probably wouldn't appeal to you anyway.
    Listen. There are a myriad of reasons why people don't play Goblins or Gnomes. "Lack of lore" or "lack of class that represents them" is just one of many, and hardly the biggest. People who don't like those races will just continue to not like those races, tech class or not. Restricting a tech class to those two races is a shot on the foot, because it'll solve just a minor "problem" in those races' popularity, while creating a bigger one that is basically alienating all the other people who want tech classes but don't want to play a goblin or gnome.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #505
    I'd play a Gnome or Goblin if they could fight in a mech.

    I don't play as either right now because I think other races fit other classes better.

  6. #506
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, we can't. One, because not only there were lore specifically saying that only Night Elves and Blood Elves were Demon Hunters, but the class was "restricted" to two of the three most popular races in the whole game. Night Elves, prior to Legion, accounted for around 28-30% of the Alliance population, with Humans being 30-32%, with the remaining being distributed among the other races. The third most played race in the Alliance, the Draenei, are only a meager 12%. Whereas on the Horde, the Blood Elves had surpassed Orcs as the most played race, being over 35% of the population before DHs, against a meager 18% of the second place, the Orcs.

    Restricting the DHs to just the elves did more good than harm to the class, because the two races it is restricted to were already widely popular to begin with.
    There are people out there who dislike Demon Hunters and won't play as one BECAUSE they're restricted to just elves. So if the argument is that restricting the class to only a few races harms the class, that would apply to any class that isn't available to all the races.

    Listen. There are a myriad of reasons why people don't play Goblins or Gnomes. "Lack of lore" or "lack of class that represents them" is just one of many, and hardly the biggest. People who don't like those races will just continue to not like those races, tech class or not. Restricting a tech class to those two races is a shot on the foot, because it'll solve just a minor "problem" in those races' popularity, while creating a bigger one that is basically alienating all the other people who want tech classes but don't want to play a goblin or gnome.
    Well the problem is that Blizzard has never really focused on either race, and given them a chance to be more popular. Gnomes weren't even in the original WoW cinematic because they were added as an afterthought despite being in the WC universe since at least WC2. There's also the issue that prominent Gnomes and Goblins are shown in mechs and living in high tech environments, yet you can never fully partake in either experience because there is no tech-based class. Finally players from both races really feel neglected from Blizzard which is odd considering that both Goblins and Gnomes predate several races in the game like Draenei, NEs, Tauren, Worgen, etc.

    I say, give both races the chance to be popular by giving them something cool, and giving them an expansion that focuses on them. If it ends up blowing up in their face, then lesson learned and we can move on to something else. However, again Blizzard should at least give them an opportunity to shine.

  7. #507
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There are people out there who dislike Demon Hunters and won't play as one BECAUSE they're restricted to just elves. So if the argument is that restricting the class to only a few races harms the class, that would apply to any class that isn't available to all the races.
    You can make that argument, yes, but your argument becomes dead on arrival when you consider that, due to the massive population of elves (on both factions), the number of people who won't play a DH because they're restricted to elves is easily much smaller than the number of people who would avoid the tech class if it becomes gnome/goblin-only, if we compare the races' populations.

    Well the problem is that Blizzard has never really focused on either race, and given them a chance to be more popular. Gnomes weren't even in the original WoW cinematic because they were added as an afterthought despite being in the WC universe since at least WC2.
    ... Are you going to claim Trolls were added "as an afterthought despite being in the WC universe since at least WC1" since they don't appear on the original cinematic?

    There's also the issue that prominent Gnomes and Goblins are shown in mechs and living in high tech environments, yet you can never fully partake in either experience because there is no tech-based class.
    That is nowhere the "big issue" you paint it to be. It's just one of many, many reasons why people don't like those races.

    Finally players from both races really feel neglected from Blizzard which is odd considering that both Goblins and Gnomes predate several races in the game like Draenei, NEs, Tauren, Worgen, etc.
    Predate? Are you talking about when they first showed up in game? That doesn't really mean much, to be honest.

    I say, give both races the chance to be popular by giving them something cool, and giving them an expansion that focuses on them. If it ends up blowing up in their face, then lesson learned and we can move on to something else. However, again Blizzard should at least give them an opportunity to shine.
    Ugh, please stop acting like giving a tech class exclusively to gnomes and goblins will solve all of their popularity problems. It won't. I'm willing to bet that the boost will be minimal, and not worth considering the hit in popularity such a demanded class would have, considering the vast number of people who just don't like gnomes and goblins. Tech class or not, Gnomes and Goblins will remain being tiny, ugly, stumpy, malformed lawn gnomes/gremlins with voices that make the harpies' shrill feel pleasant to the ears.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Another reason why I believe "fighting on a mech" isn't going to happen is because it's essentially 'mounted combat', something everyone has been asking for, and giving it to just one class, and a class that can only be used by the two least liked races after the pandaren? It would sound petty and kind of a 'middle finger' to everyone else who wanted that feature.
    Fighting on a mech is not mounted combat. It's more similar to a druid form than it is to mounted combat. It can also be done simply as a cooldown, not a form/stance.

    Tech-class fighting mechs wouldn't (and don't need to) be faster than regular walking/running, let alone equivalent to a mount.


    Furthermore, mechs aren't exclusive to goblins and gnomes, any playable race in the game can get inside and control one of these (Sky Golem):


    As well as many variations of these, in multiple quests (and even as zone abilities) throughout various expansions (Quest Shredders, Gorgrond Mechashredder 5000):


  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Fighting on a mech is not mounted combat. It's more similar to a druid form than it is to mounted combat. It can also be done simply as a cooldown, not a form/stance.

    Tech-class fighting mechs wouldn't (and don't need to) be faster than regular walking/running, let alone equivalent to a mount.


    Furthermore, mechs aren't exclusive to goblins and gnomes, any playable race in the game can get inside and control one of these (Sky Golem):


    As well as many variations of these, in multiple quests (and even as zone abilities) throughout various expansions (Quest Shredders, Gorgrond Mechashredder 5000)
    I don't think you see any examples in lore if non-gnomes or goblins in mechs though. I'm pretty sure the only NPCs I've seen riding around in mechs are Gnomes and Goblins. If Blizzard goes the mech route with Tinkers, it would pretty much have to be Gnome and Goblin exclusive.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiradyn View Post
    I don't think you see any examples in lore if non-gnomes or goblins in mechs though. I'm pretty sure the only NPCs I've seen riding around in mechs are Gnomes and Goblins. If Blizzard goes the mech route with Tinkers, it would pretty much have to be Gnome and Goblin exclusive.
    You are replying to 3 plain in-game examples of non-gnomes or goblins on mechs, and you are still claiming mechs must be gnome & goblin only.

    NPCs might be a bit more rare, but that doesn't mean they "can't". You almost never saw monk NPCs (only in Scarlet Monastery, I believe), and yet monks were added, and now there's more monk NPCs. You almost never saw deathknight NPCs before WotLK, and now there's a bunch of them.
    You almost never (or never really) saw draenei shamans, dwarf shamans, tauren paladins, troll druids, night elf mages, so on, until it changed.

    What would stop non-gnomes/goblins from using a mech?
    Size? Players of all races being able to use them proves that's not an issue.
    Operation knowledge/expertise? Players of all races being able to use them without any instruction proves that's not an issue.
    Lore? Doesn't really apply to classes. Classes are a gameplay concept. Shredders in quests have more lore than classes.

    If orcs using shredders in-game is not lore-friendly, then it proves it doesn't matter if it is or isn't, when it comes to the issue of adding a tech-class with mechs: It doesn't need to be lore-friendly to be in the game.
    Mechs don't have to be gnome and goblin exclusive, because they already exist and they aren't exclusive.


    Here's another example. In the Hellfire Citadel raid, the NPC Siegemaster Mar'tak (to all effects basicly an Orc Warrior) operates the Iron Reaver, a giant fel-infused mech device:
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2016-12-07 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #511
    Dreadlord Hawkknight97's Avatar
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    Might as well Rename the Profession Tinkering and Class name would be Engineer Class. It would be cool if Blizzard did something with this class idea like getting some Elements from Guild Wars 2, Or crazy smashing and blasting of Engineers from Torchlight 2.

  12. #512
    No. there be no renaming of anything.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Here's another example. In the Hellfire Citadel raid, the NPC Siegemaster Mar'tak (to all effects basicly an Orc Warrior) operates the Iron Reaver, a giant fel-infused mech device:
    Point taken. So I guess the issue of this class being restricted to two races isn't a problem anymore?

    So then we can spread a mech class to Orcs and Dwarves then? Maybe give Orcs a ln iron horde style mech, dwarves something akin to their style of technology, Goblins get Shredders like Blackfuse, and Gnomes get Mekkatorque style mechs?

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You can say the same thing about Demon Hunters. Anytime you limit it to two races, you'll likely make said class less popular than it could be if it was less restricted. However, just like DHs fit better with elves, a mech-based class fits best with Gnomes and Goblins.

    In the end, you have an extremely popular concept, and potentially an extremely popular class that perfectly fits two WoW races that could use some love. Seems like a win-win. If you hate Goblins and Gnomes, you'll likely also hate the idea of technology in WoW, so a tech-class probably wouldn't appeal to you anyway.
    This is the biggest point I feel works against Tinkers. Once you limit to Gnomes and Goblins, you kill the entire class concept. It makes the most sense from a lore perspective, but gameplay has proven that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular despite any design and flavour they're given. Gnomes and Goblins aren't unpopular because of lack of uniqueness or awareness. Gnome and Goblin Hunters are given special access to Mech pets. This still hasn't pushed their numbers very high, and they're most likely being rolled by people who are already Gnome/Goblin players. This severely limits the Tinker's demographic.

    The second biggest point is how people generally view these diminutive races. It's not that they're unknown or lack specialness. Hearthstone even had an expansion devoted to Gnomes and Goblins (and yet another one with this latest Gadgetzan theme). It works in Hearthstone though because it's silly and whimsical. The races (and by extension, the class as well) will lack seriousness that gives people incentive to drop their main/alts to roll this new class. It's just unfortunate that the race meta is all about the pretty races, to the point where Elves had to be added to the Horde.

    If we get a Gnome/Goblin exclusive Tinker, it will have a tough time breaking the meta and becoming a class that stands toe to toe with the rest. Doesn't matter how fun the gameplay is, it will be wasted if people lack a serious investment in the class due to the limited race options.

    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?class=Hunter

    This is why a Demon Hunter works and a (gnome/goblin exclusive) Tinker would not. Even if Tinkers become the most popular class for their respective races, it would be tough to break 30k total players, compared to Demon Hunters which already enjoy 80k for each race. Even Monks, as few as they are, have a total of 100k players; 35k Pandaren, 33k Humans and Blood Elves, and 32k for every other race. Imagine if Monks were Pandaren exclusive.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2016-12-07 at 07:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    This is the biggest point I feel works against Tinkers. Once you limit to Gnomes and Goblins, you kill the entire class concept. It makes the most sense from a lore perspective, but gameplay has proven that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular despite any design and flavour they're given. Gnomes and Goblins aren't unpopular because of lack of uniqueness or awareness. Gnome and Goblin Hunters are given special access to Mech pets. This still hasn't pushed their numbers very high, and they're most likely being rolled by people who are already Gnome/Goblin players. This severely limits the Tinker's demographic.

    The second biggest point is how people generally view these diminutive races. It's not that they're unknown or lack specialness. Hearthstone even had an expansion devoted to Gnomes and Goblins (and yet another one with this latest Gadgetzan theme). It works in Hearthstone though because it's silly and whimsical. The races (and by extension, the class as well) will lack seriousness that gives people incentive to drop their main/alts to roll this new class. It's just unfortunate that the race meta is all about the pretty races, to the point where Elves had to be added to the Horde.

    If we get a Gnome/Goblin exclusive Tinker, it will have a tough time breaking the meta and becoming a class that stands toe to toe with the rest. Doesn't matter how fun the gameplay is, it will be wasted if people lack a serious investment in the class due to the limited race options.

    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?class=Hunter

    This is why a Demon Hunter works and a (gnome/goblin exclusive) Tinker would not. Even if Tinkers become the most popular class for their respective races, it would be tough to break 30k total players, compared to Demon Hunters which already enjoy 80k for each race. Even Monks, as few as they are, have a total of 100k players; 35k Pandaren, 33k Humans and Blood Elves, and 32k for every other race. Imagine if Monks were Pandaren exclusive.

    So would expanding a Tinker mech class to Orcs and Dwarves solve that problem?

  16. #516
    Deleted
    Perhaps we should see how popular DHs are... The last new class is still the least played class

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiradyn View Post
    So would expanding a Tinker mech class to Orcs and Dwarves solve that problem?
    Calling this a problem implies that it is something that can be fixed. When we're dealing with class popularity, it's not as simple as 'add a couple more races and the problem goes away'.

    For example, Night Elves have a 3:1 ratio to Gnomes for all classes except Mage, Monk and Warrior. Monks and Warriors are low on numbers for both NE and Gnomes; I personally interpret this due to a lack of class fantasy for both races. Mage on the other hand, is the only class where Gnomes exceed Night Elves, by a wide margin as well. I believe this is also due to class fantasy, the idea that Gnomes fit the Mage identity and in turn it is their most popular class.

    Orcs and Dwarves, are an odd factor. They completely make sense as races that can use technology, but technology is just the theme, not the class fantasy. The class fantasy is that of an ingenious inventor who uses technology to fight. Orcs and Dwarve's most popular classes are Warriors, Hunters, Shamans/Paladins. The common theme is that they're offensive fighters that favour directness over subtlety. The Tinker identity is the complete opposite, where you're fighting with technology and using tricks and gadgets to avoid relying on hand-to-hand combat. While it's not uncommon to associate Orcs and Dwarves with tech-based fighting, these races certainly won't 'solve that problem'.

    Even though it may seem like a cop-out answer, I do think that this class will need Human and Blood Elf options to stay competitive. Even a class like Monks benefit greatly by those options, even if it doesn't necessarily make any more sense that a Human or BE would be better at Martial Arts than any other race (sans Pandarens). I think given the option, they would be a more popular choice for Tinkers than Orcs and Dwarves, and even possibly Gnomes and Goblins. This isn't my personal opinion for what I want to see, I'm just pointing out based on player trends, popular Race options affect Class popularity.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2016-12-07 at 09:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  18. #518
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    This is the biggest point I feel works against Tinkers. Once you limit to Gnomes and Goblins, you kill the entire class concept. It makes the most sense from a lore perspective, but gameplay has proven that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular despite any design and flavour they're given. Gnomes and Goblins aren't unpopular because of lack of uniqueness or awareness. Gnome and Goblin Hunters are given special access to Mech pets. This still hasn't pushed their numbers very high, and they're most likely being rolled by people who are already Gnome/Goblin players. This severely limits the Tinker's demographic.

    The second biggest point is how people generally view these diminutive races. It's not that they're unknown or lack specialness. Hearthstone even had an expansion devoted to Gnomes and Goblins (and yet another one with this latest Gadgetzan theme). It works in Hearthstone though because it's silly and whimsical. The races (and by extension, the class as well) will lack seriousness that gives people incentive to drop their main/alts to roll this new class. It's just unfortunate that the race meta is all about the pretty races, to the point where Elves had to be added to the Horde.

    If we get a Gnome/Goblin exclusive Tinker, it will have a tough time breaking the meta and becoming a class that stands toe to toe with the rest. Doesn't matter how fun the gameplay is, it will be wasted if people lack a serious investment in the class due to the limited race options.

    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?class=Hunter

    This is why a Demon Hunter works and a (gnome/goblin exclusive) Tinker would not. Even if Tinkers become the most popular class for their respective races, it would be tough to break 30k total players, compared to Demon Hunters which already enjoy 80k for each race. Even Monks, as few as they are, have a total of 100k players; 35k Pandaren, 33k Humans and Blood Elves, and 32k for every other race. Imagine if Monks were Pandaren exclusive.
    I agree wholeheartedly. It's something I've been trying to get through to Teriz for some time, now. Making a tech class exclusive to Gnomes and Goblins, despite being somewhat lore-accurate, would harm the class' popularity way more than it would help those races' popularity.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    Perhaps we should see how popular DHs are... The last new class is still the least played class
    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census...ervertypeid=-1

    DH are 4th most played class so far. I think that's hardly least played. Least created since they're new, perhaps.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2016-12-07 at 09:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly. It's something I've been trying to get through to Teriz for some time, now. Making a tech class exclusive to Gnomes and Goblins, despite being somewhat lore-accurate, would harm the class' popularity way more than it would help those races' popularity.
    Futhermore, making an expansion relating to them would be an absolute trainwreck

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