[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Rashdawg]

Looking for some help on how to improve. Have 3 boomkins (including me) and 1 trial boomkin on roster. The other 3 boomkins have ED and I do not. Needing advice on anything I am doing wrong so I can still compete to have a shot at mythic progression.

warcraftlogs.com/reports/xRZf2AMmrFBVp7qQ#fight=17&type=damage-done

[Littleseb]

How to improve. Re roll a balance Druid and hope for ED/IFE.

[Matchu]

Impeccable Fel Essence - The remaining cooldown on Celestial Alignment is reduced by 1 sec for every 12 Astral Power you expend, up from 8.

Really hoping there's some decent buffs incoming.

e:

Mastery: Starlight Increases Starfall and Starsurge damage, and the effect of Lunar, Solar, and Stellar Empowerments by an additional 16%. Druid - Balance Spec. 18%. Druid - Balance Spec.

Wasn't exactly what I was hoping for, but they have just said dataminers might not see all the changes.

[Deleted]

Really hoping there's some decent buffs incoming.

Wtf is going on with balance on ptr... It can't just be the tier bonus... They must be buffing us on base because else it makes no sense to nerf a class which is below middle in most dps statistics.

[Klapi]

How to improve. Re roll a balance Druid and hope for ED/IFE.

Maybe u havent seen the most recent build? Those 2 might not be our bis legendaries at all anymore.

[Myztikrice]

They could probably nerf them by 50% more and they'd still be better than Cindaria.

[thedeisel]

Ooof, what a devastating change for IFE.

What would've got your CD reduction down to 90seconds (ie if you could generate 8 AP/sec on average over that duration) now only buys you a 1min reduction. Very often IFE won't provide any DPS increase at all any more, then. It'll also be much harder to maintain that level of AP generation because relatively less of it will be spent under Incarnation. So, the nerf is even more than that.

Once CDs get over 2min they tend to all get lumped together into the 'long CD' that I need to save instead of in the 'use on CD' category.

I do find it more fun to strategically use CDs but I don't find it fun to just do a lot less damage. Too bad for folks with IFE. Much bigger gutting than the ED change.

Not to mention IFE was already pretty underwhelming because it only bumped us up from trash level to lower middle class on multi-taget fights, whereas ED pushes us from mid pack to top of class single target.

Oh, and yeah, ED benefits much more from 4pc and higher mastery scaling. Good times for non-ED moonkin!

Long live ED! (good news for viagra, I guess /harhar)


Edit: the 'hidden' tuning for balance druids is a flat 4% buff, so, nothing that would advantage non-ED moonkin over ED moonkin and reduce the gap. you can see that here: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=137013/balance-druid

For comparison other 'tuning' adjustments are Arcane Mages get a flat 12% buff, Fire Mages get a flat 15% buff, Frost mages get a flat 12% buff, Shadow gets a flat 25% buff.

So the only specs that we're being tuned to gain over compared to the base 7.1.5 changes are hunters and ele. Mages getting massively, massively buffed across all 3 specs.

[Irefusetodie]

12 AsP is far too much of a nerf. 10 AsP seems reasonable.

[Nerxyrall]

Will miss the every 1,5min Incarnation-"playstyle". Was/is very fun and rewarding. 3min Incarnation is often pain to line up with anything important.
The now every ~2min will be not as good and fun.

But i also get that it was on the strong side of legendarys. Simming it i get a 10% dmg increase singel target. Of course the 10% are only true if the fight lets you use Incarnation meaningfully that often (which isnt always the case).

I´m a little sad that the 1,5min-CD "playstyle" is gone this way, but i dont really see a not hypocritical way of arguing to keep it as it is.

[thedeisel]

Summing up changes so far:

FoN, FoE, Stellar Flare, Soul of the Forest, Stellar Drift got somewhat buffed (unclear still if those buffs are enough for any of them will be used over the standard setup we currently use).

We can expect a 4% across the board buff.

We can expect to lose about a third or more of the value we gain from our good legendaries.

We have a good 4pc but it massively, massively, massively benefits what is already far and the best legendary.

Did I miss anything?

[Littleseb]

Blizzard apologized about the legendary system and will now allow players to trade in their crap ones for the helm.

[MV Kaa]

Summing up changes so far:

FoN, FoE, Stellar Flare, Soul of the Forest, Stellar Drift got somewhat buffed (unclear still if those buffs are enough for any of them will be used over the standard setup we currently use).

We can expect a 4% across the board buff.

We can expect to lose about a third or more of the value we gain from our good legendaries.

We have a good 4pc but it massively, massively, massively benefits what is already far and the best legendary.

Did I miss anything?

Is anyone else worried that our 4 piece is only good single target?

[PowerGamez]

Is anyone else worried that our 4 piece is only good single target?

It would be really nice if they added a cleave component as well.

e.g. "Starsurge deals 20% increased damage to targets affected by both your Sunfire and Moonfire, and 20% damage to all other enemies within 5 yards."

[Slippykins]

Is anyone else worried that our 4 piece is only good single target?

No, I like single-target buffs wherever possible.

Hoping that the "Tuning for Balance Druids isn't done yet." implies the 4% Balance buff is just to offset the legendary reduction, and the balancing isn't in it.

[Deleted]

Hoping that the "Tuning for Balance Druids isn't done yet." implies the 4% Balance buff is just to offset the legendary reduction, and the balancing isn't in it.

This is the case for all the "Tuning" changes so far. no cross class tuning yet.

[Slippykins]

This is the case for all the "Tuning" changes so far. no cross class tuning yet.

Yeah good. I saw the 4% and thought it seemed relatively similar to the loss from ED/IFE.

[thedeisel]

They just said this patch is the start of cross class tuning. So those do represent attempts at that kind of tuning.

re:

Is anyone else worried that our 4 piece is only good single target?

A little bit. Our multi-target damage is pretty weak.

That said, when we do talent into multi-target damage we get more out of doing so in 7.1.5 than we do now. given the massive deficit we already suffer from, though, I doubt it'll be a strength of ours even if we talent into it.

The legendary situation seems to be worse now than before. Compared to 7.1, IFE has been pretty much decimated. ED got a nerf but is also gaining a lot of value from the 4pc and the mastery scaling buff. It's probably still at a similar spot. Maybe they can nerf it to 5 AP savings to bring it closer to the kind of nerf IFE got. I guess OI is better now in 7.1.5 than before so maybe it will offer ED some competition.

[Deleted]

Also for anybody that cares about actual numbers:

SimC results using my gear (optimized for ED 30% breakpoint)
No leg: 408,690 (0%)
Old ED: 455,157 (11.1%)
New ED: 437,996 (7.2%)
IFE: 445,697 (9.1%)
New IFE: 436,159 (6.7%)


Result: ED should be very slightly ahead of IFE single target (~0.5% without 4p, likely ~1.5% with it) if you play it perfectly (hint: most people don't, and would benefit more from IFE). Both are significantly less ahead of the other legendaries when it comes to single target (but they are still #1 and #2).

For the general case, not much changes. ED will be favoured by the elite few for single target, and IFE will be favoured for everything else. OI and CS will start competing for the #2 spot as soon as we move away from pure single target, with the new shoulders and Sephuz slightly behind, both being significantly more niche than the other options (yet strong in their given niche).

[thedeisel]

Is that with new 4pc and new mastery scaling? (help ED more than IFE)

There's also no skill gap difference in IFE v ED. You get more redux out of IFE the better you are at planning around movement. You get more out of ED the better you are around movement.

You also don't get as much out of IFE when you have to save it for encounter mechanics etc (which also means ife can be more valuable in some cases!). You always use your ED.

[Deleted]

Vastly different in regards of choice. One gives you a choice and the other doesnt. We had the "no choice" rotation just last expansion and people cried all over about it because it was so strict. Now suddenly people are all over for it - I just don't buy it. Sure theres people that always liked it that way but majority? No, I don't think so.

I bet we'd be in the same situation if it was the other way around. ED rotation being the core and current base rotation being the "legendary stuff". They'd argue its much better because of its "openess" (and the dps benefits, obviously)

I don't blame anyone for liking whatever they do like as long as they don't use things like dps as a reason for it.

That is true to some degree, however there are differences.

The major differences between our WoD rotation and the ED rotation is that ED is only limited in choice during the burn part of the rotation. While generating resources, the rotation is much more open (you can choose between SW/LS/Moon spells/dot refreshes). Also, delaying the burn phase is significantly less impactful on our dps, than it was in WoD, and it does not include casting a zero damage spell (Astral Communion) which in my personal opinion feels way worse than simply stalling with fillers (or in the case of ED, simply cast a single starsurge and then build again). For the sake of comparison, I also much prefered the playstyle in Cata (where we could sit pre lunar/solar eclipse and cast the "wrong" spell to delay entering the next eclipse for when we wanted the burst) to what we had in WoD in AC.

I bet we'd be in the same situation if it was the other way around. ED rotation being the core and current base rotation being the "legendary stuff". They'd argue its much better because of its "openess" (and the dps benefits, obviously)

Likely yes, but different people, and for different reasons. I think more having more complex rotations that leads to better dps is a good thing. I would prefer if the hardest rotation is the best when played well, and that the easiest rotation is the best if you do not perform at a top level. This applies to everything in the game, not just legendaries.

- - - Updated - - -

Is that with new 4pc and new mastery scaling? (help ED more than IFE)

I mentioned the 4p in the post. No, mastery scaling is not included, because it has a minimal effect. Just like I am not including the changes to secondary stats across the board, they wont make a noticable difference.

There's also no skill gap difference in IFE v ED. You get more redux out of IFE the better you are at planning around movement. You get more out of ED the better you are around movement.

The ED skill cap is literally miles above IFE. I'm not sure how you could ever argue otherwise. IFE literally doesn't make the rotation any harder, it does increase the difference between the good and the bad player a bit because of the double dipping, but nowhere near the swing you see with ED.

You also don't get as much out of IFE when you have to save it for encounter mechanics etc (which also means ife can be more valuable in some cases!).

That point is valid, however it also works the other way. What if an encounter favours exactly 2 min. cooldowns? then IFE is absolutely amazing, where a non IFE user might need to save his INC for the 4 min. mark.

You always use your ED.

No you can't. It is dead on aoe, and it is middle of the pack in most multi target scenarios.

IFE however? Now THAT one you can pretty much always use. Best for all kinds of aoe (unless you only care about a <2 min. window, but that is rarely ever the case in pve). Nearly as good as the best single target option for the elite, and actual #1 single target for the vast majority of the playerbase.