New build is f*cking A!

[Deleted]

Alright so after some initial testing done on the new build dh's seem to CURRENTLY deal way more dps then on live. I'm talking about a wopping 30-50k+ more dps then you are currently doing on live.

yes the 5% decrease in crit (for all agility classes btw) is still there, however the compensation we got on our primary stat is MORE then worth it. That along with the Mastery buff chaos strike buff and chaos blade buff puts us in a very strong spot. My mastery on live is 19%, on the ptr the movement speed is still 19% but my chaos damage is increased by 27%. Pretty nice, this might push mastery ahead of versatility, perhaps bringing us to a agility>crit>mastery>haste>=versa? Who knows, theorycrafters will keep us updated in that regard. All we can do is speculate atm. Now the ring on ptr is confirmed 1-12 like it is on live atm, at last they realized that it was kinda shit or even barely a 'legendary' item so to speak.

Now I'm in the *office* edit: school* atm but I'll provide some logs, screenshots and what not tonight. But I'll inform you which talents I was rolling with. I'll additionally try to explain why I picked them as well.

Tier 1: Felblade (mainly cause felblade procs a lot, can be influenced by haste both cooldown and proc wise making it ideal during meta moments and bloodlust moments and its just fairly consistent and not on a long cooldown.

Tier 2: Demon's blade (still the best imo, fluent, and even with the nerf procs fairly often, more haste will influence the proc rate as well. This is from my experience ofcourse, i'm a non ring user. With ring this is an even much better talent.)

Tier 3: Chaos Cleave (the buff to chaos damage is very welcoming here, that alongside the buff on chaos strike makes this ability pretty much good in any situation aslong as you can melee and actually, y'know, spend fury. A thing to note is that chaos cleave does chaos damage as well AND procs on annihilation. It did 12.9% of my total damage on the ptr and was on my top 3 abilities during my meta burst throughout the first minute. Last to mention is that this eliminates our 'weak' SUSTAINED aoe/cleave dps and it isn't limited to targets either, this ability alone can make you go 1mill+ sustained aoe dps aslong as you got the fury to spare on chaos strike.)

Tier 4: Netherwalk (with netherwalk not being tied to blur anymore It's effectively another CD, on top of that we can soak raid mechanics with this allowing us to cheese therefor making a dh even more valuable in your raid composition. Also increases movement speed, which is nice. Since we have a base 30% leech on meta now, we won't really need soul rending - still pretty good for pvp though.)

Tier 5: Nemesis (Hold up, don't kill me. I love Momentum, don't get me wrong. But let's face it, in Nighthold you won't wanna momentum all the time, yes you will STILL fel rush, people that believe that fel rush is out of the rotation are delusional, play rogue if you can't handle it. However with nemesis and the rest of the projected build you'll be fel rushing a lot less, It'll be roughly 2.9% of your total damage, roughly. Now why Nemesis will really start pulling ahead as you get gear is mainly because of the shoulder legendary and trinket from nighthold. These two will make SURE that you will have meta up every 2 minutes (sometimes even 1:45) that means that you'll be able to lineup Meta with nemesis and Chaos blade everytime it comes up. This is a huge amount of burst you can deal in a short moment notice. This talent will just be better, sorry guys, momentum is still viable, especially for aoe, It's just not Nemesis.

Tier 6: Master of the glaive (imo slowing mobs is always a better choice since it has no diminishing returns in a raid environment, but on top of that you'll want 2 charges so you can fill in empty globals IF your demon's blade would fail you, with the increased chaos damage I'd fel rush into tg during empty globals.)

Tier 7: Chaos Blades most of the time, Fel Barrage if I'll be cleaving or aoeing a lot - this depends on encounter, but even on cleave encounters I prefer Chaos blades.

your thoughts? Ideas, what's your opinion over these changes and the new playstyle, I personally love them and hope that blizz won't nerf us elsewhere all of a sudden, chaos cleave is to stay apparently, felblade as well, anything else could maybe change, who knows. I'm also assuming that blizz will fix the mastery snapshotting with chaos blades. We'll see. Anyway, I'd suggest you guys to hop on the ptr and test your dh out, you'll notice a very slight decrease in secondary stats, but It's not even noticeable - most dh's I met on the ptr have been saying that they're dealing even more dps then they were before. Let's hope it stays that way. =)

Disclaimer: these are all from my experience, thoughts and are solely my OPINION don't take these as facts and please keep it civil, if you disagree, feel free to state so and why - let's have a healthy discussion about the future of DH!

EDIT: some pics of the numbers I managed to get with the chaos cleave/blade dance build, also used different legendaries, no set bonus though. Average length of fight is 5 min, each chart has 2 meta's in it and ONE pot of war for burst test purposes. Ilvl on all were roughly 883-885 Also don't mind the stopwatch, sometimes I started it 1 min after I was dpsing, average length of fights were still close to 5 minutes, usually 8-10 seconds long.

Test 1: This is with both the legendary shoulder, nighthold trinket and legendary ring equipped. Talents are felblade, demon's blade, chaos cleave, netherwalk, Nemesis, master of the glaive, chaos blades
http://i.imgur.com/ra1ypM1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cFAsCCV.jpg

Test 2: This is in my mythic gear on live with no ring, my armory can be found here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ayusa/advanced, same talents as above.
http://i.imgur.com/nkXrLHX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xd5kKkm.jpg the dps is still slightly higher then what I can achieve on live.

Test 3: This is with my mythic gear except for 2 items, I removed my neck for an 835 one with decent stats and replaced my grubby silver ring for the legendary ring. So you can compare test 2 with 3 to see the difference with and without ring.
http://i.imgur.com/N1U1ef0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0klZKaE.jpg

Test 4: This is with the same gear as above, talent chaos cleave swapped for first blood. As you can see, chaos cleave pulls ahead by 16k, especially with the legendary ring, first blood might be a dps increase for non ring users though. Since they can't spend as much fury in chaos strike as opposed to ring users.
http://i.imgur.com/dfMOZT5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/v4obdqd.jpg

[Deleted]

Alright so after some initial testing done on the new build dh's seem to CURRENTLY deal way more dps then on live. I'm talking about a wopping 30-50k+ more dps then you are currently doing on live.

yes the 5% decrease in crit (for all agility classes btw) is still there, however the compensation we got on our primary stat is MORE then worth it. That along with the Mastery buff chaos strike buff and chaos blade buff puts us in a very strong spot. My mastery on live is 19%, on the ptr the movement speed is still 19% but my chaos damage is increased by 27%. Pretty nice, this might push mastery ahead of versatility, perhaps bringing us to a agility>crit>mastery>haste>=versa? Who knows, theorycrafters will keep us updated in that regard. All we can do is speculate atm. Now the ring on ptr is confirmed 1-12 like it is on live atm, at last they realized that it was kinda shit or even barely a 'legendary' item so to speak.

Now I'm in the office atm but I'll provide some logs, screenshots and what not tonight. But I'll inform you which talents I was rolling with. I'll additionally try to explain why I picked them as well.
*Snip*

your thoughts? Ideas, what's your opinion over these changes and the new playstyle, I personally love them and hope that blizz won't nerf us elsewhere all of a sudden, chaos cleave is to stay apparently, felblade as well, anything else could maybe change, who knows. I'm also assuming that blizz will fix the mastery snapshotting with chaos blades. We'll see. Anyway, I'd suggest you guys to hop on the ptr and test your dh out, you'll notice a very slight decrease in secondary stats, but It's not even noticeable - most dh's I met on the ptr have been saying that they're dealing even more dps then they were before. Let's hope it stays that way. =)

Disclaimer: these are all from my experience, thoughts and are solely my OPINION don't take these as facts and please keep it civil, if you disagree, feel free to state so and why - let's have a healthy discussion about the future of DH!

Looking Cool. I imagine the numbers might be shifted a bit before the final build, but I'm hopeful. Actually having a choice between nemesis and momentum is a good thing. I imagine DH's in top guilds will run momentum on certain fights and Nemesis on others. Depending on the makeup of the fight and such.

[HeiAggra]

OP din't post this kind of things!!! Someone from Blizz might see it and we get a nerf incoming hahaha
Still good to have some news about PTR, i'll check it later after work.

[Resentless]

Even in PvP netherwalk is still way better as its basically a pally bubble on a 2 min cd that we get ontop of blur, darkness and even with soul rending we only had 40% in pvp so this wont be much different baseline. Especially with the 2 min meta pvp talent, we'll be immortal with 4 defensive cooldowns. Also, how much dps would i realistically be missing out on by taking momentum over nemesis on a pure ST fight? if its like 2% overall then i'll stick with momentum, but if its like 5% then i cry. Everything else I agree with though, just wish felblade was chaos damage so it had some sort of decent scaling with gear, otherwise I feel like fel mastery will be better with higher gear levels but i dont know the numbers so not sure on that.

[psyquest]

note: on ST first blood make blade dance hit like a truck

chaos cleave if there is aoe, otherwise I think first blood will be best.

[Cymorìl]

note: on ST first blood make blade dance hit like a truck

chaos cleave if there is aoe, otherwise I think first blood will be best.

We have to see if the new buff to CS will let chaos cleave outperform first blood on ST.

[Mad_Murdock]

Not to dampen your joy, but as they keep saying tuning numbers aren't done yet. So just like those who are screaming for buffs, I wouldn't celebrate a 30-50K dps jump until it goes live.

[Deleted]

note: on ST first blood make blade dance hit like a truck

chaos cleave if there is aoe, otherwise I think first blood will be best.

Chaos Cleave at the moment outperforms Blade dance with first blood in single target, aoe and cleave aslong as you aren't a dh that struggles with managing his fury. Especially since it procs on annihilation as well. Blade dance however is good at lower gear levels since the fury cost is so low. Both were very close initially but ever since the mastery buff that has changed ^^ so the ability scales now very well with mastery. ^^

Even in PvP netherwalk is still way better as its basically a pally bubble on a 2 min cd that we get ontop of blur, darkness and even with soul rending we only had 40% in pvp so this wont be much different baseline. Especially with the 2 min meta pvp talent, we'll be immortal with 4 defensive cooldowns. Also, how much dps would i realistically be missing out on by taking momentum over nemesis on a pure ST fight? if its like 2% overall then i'll stick with momentum, but if its like 5% then i cry. Everything else I agree with though, just wish felblade was chaos damage so it had some sort of decent scaling with gear, otherwise I feel like fel mastery will be better with higher gear levels but i dont know the numbers so not sure on that.

Very nice points from a pvp perspective, looks like dh will be a baws in mitigating most, if not all classes their burst damage, which is especially good vs frost dk's. unfortunately I'll only be able to grant you some numbers oonce I'm home, will have to tweak my simcraft though - but I'll do my best


And yeah I'm aware that tuning and numbers aren't final yet, this is why It's still on the ptr and not live yet. It's nice to keep people updated and show them that blizz doesn't only nerf our class but shows some love as well though. ^^ Either way, yes people - keep in mind that these changes aren't final but they're nice and the current PTR build feels smooth in my opinion. We'll wait and see, but enjoy it as long as it lasts

[Firehorse]

Looking Cool. I imagine the numbers might be shifted a bit before the final build, but I'm hopeful. Actually having a choice between nemesis and momentum is a good thing. I imagine DH's in top guilds will run momentum on certain fights and Nemesis on others. Depending on the makeup of the fight and such.

In what world are you living that its a good thing? Nemesis should be no where near competitive to momentum because there is 0 flavor to the class once you strip out momentum. Who honestly wants to just stand there watching fury build, dump, build, dump with nothing else to do, at least with momentum you have the element of positioning between rushes.

[Krille]

In what world are you living that its a good thing? Nemesis should be no where near competitive to momentum because there is 0 flavor to the class once you strip out momentum. Who honestly wants to just stand there watching fury build, dump, build, dump with nothing else to do, at least with momentum you have the element of positioning between rushes.

I will still always use momentum. I think that being able to weave your hardest hitting abilities into 20% dmg increase for the entire fight is better than having 1 minute where you deal 25% more damage. You might get really unlucky, or the fight requires movement and you lose so much from having Nemesis.

[Yhcti]

Probably still going to use Momentum as it seems better for AoE/General use. Fel Blade is amazing though, Fel Eruption I can see being amazing in PvP for burst windows.... that thing crits so fucking hard.. 2-2.5m

[FluFF]

Who honestly wants to just stand there watching fury build, dump, build, dump with nothing else to do.

welcome to every other dps spec and resource in the game.
Also '' I don't want any other valid options on my talent row cause I think it will make MY spec boring ''
For every person going '' if they nerf momentum I reroll '' there is another person wanting a non momentum build.

[actiwe]

welcome to every other dps spec and resource in the game.
Also '' I don't want any other valid options on my talent row cause I think it will make MY spec boring ''
For every person going '' if they nerf momentum I reroll '' there is another person wanting a non momentum build.

You can't possibly know that neither can I, but on forums people seem to flavour momentum build more than people who do not

[jayinjersey]

You can't possibly know that neither can I, but on forums people seem to flavour momentum build more than people who do not

You can't possibly know that neither can I

[Occar]

In what world are you living that its a good thing? Nemesis should be no where near competitive to momentum because there is 0 flavor to the class once you strip out momentum. Who honestly wants to just stand there watching fury build, dump, build, dump with nothing else to do, at least with momentum you have the element of positioning between rushes.

You're just going to have to accept that the developers do not agree with you. Nor do many (perhaps most) of the demon hunter players. How you feel is really irrelevant. You only feel that way because you enjoy the momentum talent. You like a system of haves and have nots where there people who enjoy momentum get an acceptable class, and the people who don't, do not. It isn't difficult. It doesn't make you a special snowflake. It is just clunky at best with the way the game engine works. At worst, it is near unplayable for people who don't have low enough latency.

No rational developer would leave it that way on a class that only has a single spec for the role, so it is being fixed. WoW isn't an FPS with workable lag compensation, and as latency goes up, that playstyle gets very unworkable, very fast.

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You can't possibly know that neither can I, but on forums people seem to flavour momentum build more than people who do not

Most of the DHs I know in game have either stopped playing because they didn't want to deal with the horrible playstyle that momentum makes, or knowingly do less dps to make it an enjoyable class by not using that talent while they build up an alt that isn't hobbled by such a horrible mechanic.

This board has a very vocal few that don't represent the actual make up.

Fixing the disparity will keep a lot more people playing the class. The special snowflakes will be angry, but, honestly, who cares.

[actiwe]

You're just going to have to accept that the developers do not agree with you. Nor do many (perhaps most) of the demon hunter players. How you feel is really irrelevant. You only feel that way because you enjoy the momentum talent. You like a system of haves and have nots where there people who enjoy momentum get an acceptable class, and the people who don't, do not. It isn't difficult. It doesn't make you a special snowflake. It is just clunky at best with the way the game engine works. At worst, it is near unplayable for people who don't have low enough latency.

No rational developer would leave it that way on a class that only has a single spec for the role, so it is being fixed. WoW isn't an FPS with workable lag compensation, and as latency goes up, that playstyle gets very unworkable, very fast.

- - - Updated - - -




Most of the DHs I know in game have either stopped playing because they didn't want to deal with the horrible playstyle that momentum makes, or knowingly do less dps to make it an enjoyable class by not using that talent while they build up an alt that isn't hobbled by such a horrible mechanic.

This board has a very vocal few that don't represent the actual make up.

Fixing the disparity will keep a lot more people playing the class. The special snowflakes will be angry, but, honestly, who cares.

For me it's vice versa, most people I know would not like to play havoc without it.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't possibly know that neither can I

I see what you did there! xD

[Narzok]

could we please stop the momentum VS no momentum discussion here? there are a gazillion and more threats about that.
the ONLY people who can decide how the DH is designed are the devs. if you don't like whatever they cook up, change class.

to OP: awesome overview, i would really like to see the threat updated as the ptr goes on (as long as the shit that is momentum whining stays out). keep up the good work ^^

PS: if it isn't obvious: i don't care about ANY opinion about momentum WHAT SO EVER! you can have YOUR opinion, i have MINE, and the devs have their own, so don't bother replying to the above just to defend/bash momentum.

I.
DON'T.
CARE!

[Occar]

And there is nothing stopping them from doing so.

That's how it was always easy to tell who was hung up on thinking they were a special snowflake. If they felt that having superior damage was their blizzard given right just for putting up with a stupid mechanic, they were fooling themselves.

If they tried to shove the momentum talent on everyone because, by george, that is what a DH is, they were fooling themselves.

If they thought it would become baseline because it was actually what the goal for the DH design was, they were fooling themselves.



No one who disliked momentum wanted its damage or uptime lowered, but so very many people who like the style seem to have this really hilarious idea that they have some special skill and "deserve" to have their talent choice be the only workable talent for the class are finally getting a much needed wake up call.

[Deleted]

all in all there needs to be an alternative to momentum,there are fights where you have to stay on a dot and just dps (eye in EM M for example). You lose 20% dps there because you can't felrush anywhere without taking considerable damage.

[shanthi]

I like Momentum just fine, since it's different and interesting to me, but I can understand why people might dislike the playstyle unrelated to whether they can pull it off competently. Just because you can do something decently or well doesn't mean you'll find it fun.