"Legion has the most unbalanced PvP ever"

[Lightbull]

Anyway this thread has been derailed by one salty rogue. Funny.

I don't mind honestly. Every counterargument to my original point has been debunked, and continue to be debunked.

[Volitar]

Disarm should of never been removed. Melee is just too mongo. You just attack people until you pve them dead. It's stupid and there isn't a lot of counterplay, its just whoever does more DPS.

[rda]

Already debunked this. He's just a salty rogue saying PvP is unbalanced because he's able to train the least mobile caster in the game until he dies, while that same caster is doing no damage because of RDruid HoTs.

No shit that Warlock is going to die. That's just the nature of 2s. Always has been.

If you want to claim 3s is the same, give me some proof of this happening above 2200. Because no DPS in his right mind is going to just train the kill target and ignore the fact that his Warlock is dying.

What? "He's just a salty rogue" - that's the debunking? How about doing anything else except sitting on a target does not pay off? Did you try it? Do you even do arenas?

No, it wasn't like that in 2s before, you have no clue.

For proofs that 3s aren't much better (no, it's not sitting on a single target all way long, but it's very close), watch streams - ie, you can watch a stream of that guy in the video. Hint: he's much higher rated that you will ever be.

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I don't mind honestly. Every counterargument to my original point has been debunked, and continue to be debunked.

ROFL, totally. "He's just salty" is great debunking. The truth is, you have been talking about things you do not understand.

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Disarm should of never been removed. Melee is just too mongo. You just attack people until you pve them dead. It's stupid and there isn't a lot of counterplay, its just whoever does more DPS.

The "debunking" points of the OP:

1. It was always like that.
2. You are salty.
3. Bring me proofs which I will throw away (threw away everything so far).

I think I am doing it right.

[Lightbull]

What? "He's just a salty rogue" - that's the debunking? How about doing anything else except sitting on a target does not pay off? Did you try it? Do you even do arenas?

No, it wasn't like that in 2s before, you have no clue.

For proofs that 3s aren't much better (no, it's not sitting on a single target all way long, but it's very close), watch streams - ie, you can watch a stream of that guy in the video. Hint: he's much higher rated that you will ever be.

Bloody hell, I can smell the sodium from here.

I don't think you read my post. Either that or you don't want to admit it's right. You haven't provided any argument against my claims. All the 3s games I've seen from Pshero involve the same tactics that have been used in the last decade.

I don't give a damn about rating. You don't need a high rating to figure out the basics of PvP.

[rda]

Bloody hell, I can smell the sodium from here.

I don't think you read my post. Either that or you don't want to admit it's right. You haven't provided any argument against my claims. All the 3s games I've seen from Pshero involve the same tactics that have been used in the last decade.

I don't give a damn about rating. You don't need a high rating to figure out the basics of PvP.

I asked you - what's the debunking? What is it? The argument is that PVP right now is mostly tunneling. The video is one small piece that illustrates that. What's the counter-argument? So far all I heard is "he's just a salty rogue" - that isn't worth replying to, it's not an argument, please point out what he is doing wrong, for example (he's not doing anything wrong, just in case), and "it was the same in 2s before" - no, it was not.

As an aside, I commend your attitude about rating and yes, you are right that you don't have to have a high rating to figure out the basics. But you didn't say anything useful at all, didn't demonstrate even the basics. Your "debunking" is laughable.

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Regarding this - "All the 3s games I've seen from Pshero involve the same tactics that have been used in the last decade" - not really. Some of the tactics *look* the same, but they play a different role and are in general way less important. Ie, previously, you could be doing chain-CC to force CDs or kill, now you still do some CC, but it is not instrumental for forcing CDs / kills, tunneling is. You can force CDs / kills without chain-CC now, previously you largely couldn't. And you can't force CDs / kills with chain-CC now if your tunneling is bad, previously you would, it was pretty hard to tunnel bad enough so that chain-CC isn't dangerous. What was previously instrumental is now just a bit of help which gives you a small-small edge, and maybe sometimes that's enough for a win (but mostly it's the other factors that determine who wins). It's the same with other things. That's what we are talking about - the role of tunneling skyrocketed pushing everything else out. You can now neglect everything and just tunnel and get 90% of the results. But it looks like you don't have much experience to appreciate what the argument is and why it's a big deal.

[Lightbull]

I asked you - what's the debunking? What is it? The argument is that PVP right now is mostly tunneling. The video is one small piece that illustrates that. What's the counter-argument? So far all I heard is "he's just a salty rogue" - that isn't worth replying to, it's not an argument, please point out what he is doing wrong, for example (he's not doing anything wrong, just in case), and "it was the same in 2s before" - no, it was not.

The point of my argument there wasn't that Pshero was salty, it was that the poster claimed that PvP was unbalanced because of what Pshero was doing in that video. He showed 1 game of Pshero training a Warlock into the ground whilst being pretty much invincible because the RDruid HoTs cancelled out most of the Warlock damage. In 3v3, there would be another DPS along with the Warlock, therefore that team would have been able to peel the Rogue as well as do enough damage to counter pressure.

My point was that game with so many factors left out does not give us enough information to judge how balanced the game is. I low key hate it when YouTubers post videos like this because the community immediately takes it as "oh no, imbalance, time to go cry about it on the forums".

Regarding this - "All the 3s games I've seen from Pshero involve the same tactics that have been used in the last decade" - not really. Some of the tactics *look* the same, but they play a different role and are in general way less important. Ie, previously, you could be doing chain-CC to force CDs or kill, now you still do some CC, but it is not instrumental for forcing CDs / kills, tunneling is. You can force CDs / kills without chain-CC now, previously you largely couldn't. And you can't force CDs / kills with chain-CC now if your tunneling is bad, previously you would, it was pretty hard to tunnel bad enough so that chain-CC isn't dangerous. What was previously instrumental is now just a bit of help which gives you a small-small edge, and maybe sometimes that's enough for a win (but mostly it's the other factors that determine who wins). It's the same with other things. That's what we are talking about - the role of tunneling skyrocketed pushing everything else out. You can now neglect everything and just tunnel and get 90% of the results. But it looks like you don't have much experience to appreciate what the argument is and why it's a big deal.

I'd argue that CC is still pretty important. Affliction isn't a mongo spec, but they're still really strong right now. Since Affliction can't frontload their damage like other classes, there must be a reason why it's able to beat mongo comps. Not denying that there are mongo comps, but there always has been mongo comps (KFC in MoP comes to mind, as well as Turbo Cleave in WoD). But Affliction's existence in the meta shows us that not only is there a way to deal with mongo comps, but mongo isn't the only way to win.

I firmly disagree that we should go back to the CC heavy days. There needs to be another way, it's frustrating to be on the receiving end of a 20+ sec long CC chain, you just sit there helpless while your teammates die.

[rda]

I'd argue that CC is still pretty important. Affliction isn't a mongo spec, but they're still really strong right now. Since Affliction can't frontload their damage like other classes, there must be a reason why it's able to beat mongo comps. Not denying that there are mongo comps, but there always has been mongo comps (KFC in MoP comes to mind, as well as Turbo Cleave in WoD). But Affliction's existence in the meta shows us that not only is there a way to deal with mongo comps, but mongo isn't the only way to win.

I firmly disagree that we should go back to the CC heavy days. There needs to be another way, it's frustrating to be on the receiving end of a 20+ sec long CC chain, you just sit there helpless while your teammates die.

No, CC is not "pretty important", it merely helps a bit if you do it. Since that bit is free, you still see CC, because why not take something that is free. But it is a small bit, if you don't do it, you aren't gimping yourself much. Yes, for real.

See the Pshero video for 2s again, it illustrates the point plenty. The enemy team *did* CC, hexes were flying on cooldown, *yet this didn't help one bit*. Pshero did nothing except tunneling and won with no effort. (I guess it's only now that you begin to understand what the video actually shows.)

I was not arguing for going back to CC heavy days, CC was just an example. Another example is switching, it's minimal now. Another example is peeling, it's minimal now as well, the only counter to damage is doing bigger damage. Another example is lining up your damage CDs with those of your teammate - YES, while it helps if you do this, it is no longer required, you win by pressure. Go figure. Etc.

The point is that sure, you can try and play smart and that brings some benefits. But whereas previously it *determined* whether you won or lost, now it just determines whether you get or don't get a small bonus chance at a win. Games are won not by smart play, they are won by tunneling. And just so we leave no stone unturned, tunneling well *DOES* take some skill (ie, I bet if we go fight right now I will out-tunnel you in equal gear), but it's not a lot of skill, you can master it very quickly.

Finally, a word of advice. When you aren't very experienced with something, don't make statements about it. Ask. Not many are going to be as patient at bizarre statements as this thread is, so you are going to "win" your arguments but these wins would be fake, the reality will be different and you will know no better.

[Vartonis]

I've only ever been 1900, I gave up at 1550 this season. It feels so unrewarding to PVP, now. I personally feel like this is the worst it's ever been.

Other than wrath season five, I enjoyed wrath arenas. I very much so enjoyed BC arenas and mop arenas. I played to 1900 in early WOD, and quit the game for the rest of the expansion. I came back for legion. This feels bad. Everything feels bad.

[Krusza]

Nice argument you have there. :^)

Because it's true. The only people defending PvP this expac are people that were stuck at 1800 and now they're 2300+ despite not improving as a player

Because Legion.

[Sanguinerd]

Other than being unbalanced it's just plain boring, unrewarding and did I say boring?

[Tyrannica]

Lol did you fail middle school or something?
S5 dks are 1 thing, shadowmourne anything is another thing.

And yes, naked rogues thrived because people were bad and half the time didn't use pvp trinkets. Dks in wotlk could instagib you in full gear and you couldn't do anything about it.

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Anyway this thread has been derailed by one salty rogue. Funny.

I rather consider your reply a fail, with all due respect, i do not see any valid arguments contributing to this thread in any constructive way.

[kary]

I rather consider your reply a fail, with all due respect, i do not see any valid arguments contributing to this thread in any constructive way.

I was pointing out your lack of reading comprehension. I didn't intend to add or subtract anything from the debate at hand.

You'd understand that if you had middle school reading comprehension.

[Tyrannica]

Disarm should of never been removed. Melee is just too mongo. You just attack people until you pve them dead. It's stupid and there isn't a lot of counterplay, its just whoever does more DPS.

Thats correct and many arena vids of R1 and Glad players proove it. But it seems its not enough proof for the, OP. He ignores R1 top arena players.....what else could be done? The bursty meta due to artifacts cleary didn't work great for the balance either, what everyone could see several months into the beta. PvP Templats that destroy serval classes and leave others nearly untouched. Why have such a tool if its not proberly used in a way to actually balance this crap? Actually i consider pvp templats to be a bad move from blizzard, because that way they got no more excuses for a bad balanced game and take the full responsibility.

And come with an argument as old as S5 Deathknights, while the current hero class Demon Hunter isn't quite as OP.

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I was pointing out your lack of reading comprehension. I didn't intend to add or subtract anything from the debate at hand.

You'd understand that if you had middle school reading comprehension.

So you want to get reported, now? ok.

[kary]

Thats correct and many arena vids of R1 and Glad players proove it. But it seems its not enough proof for the, OP. He ignores R1 top arena players.....what else could be done? The bursty meta due to artifacts cleary didn't work great for the balance either, what everyone could see several months into the beta. PvP Templats that destroy serval classes and leave others nearly untouched. Why have such a tool if its not proberly used in a way to actually balance this crap? Actually i consider pvp templats to be a bad move from blizzard, because that way they got no more excuses for a bad balanced game and take the full responsibility.

And come with an argument as old as S5 Deathknights, while the current hero class Demon Hunter isn't quite as OP.

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So you want to get reported, now? ok.

So grade school comprehension and a short temper. Colour me surprised.

[Lightbull]

Because it's true. The only people defending PvP this expac are people that were stuck at 1800 and now they're 2300+ despite not improving as a player

Because Legion.

Still no argument. You can just say something is true, doesn't make it true unless you have something to back it up.

No, CC is not "pretty important", it merely helps a bit if you do it. Since that bit is free, you still see CC, because why not take something that is free. But it is a small bit, if you don't do it, you aren't gimping yourself much. Yes, for real.

See the Pshero video for 2s again, it illustrates the point plenty. The enemy team *did* CC, hexes were flying on cooldown, *yet this didn't help one bit*. Pshero did nothing except tunneling and won with no effort. (I guess it's only now that you begin to understand what the video actually shows.)

I was not arguing for going back to CC heavy days, CC was just an example. Another example is switching, it's minimal now. Another example is peeling, it's minimal now as well, the only counter to damage is doing bigger damage. Another example is lining up your damage CDs with those of your teammate - YES, while it helps if you do this, it is no longer required, you win by pressure. Go figure. Etc.

The point is that sure, you can try and play smart and that brings some benefits. But whereas previously it *determined* whether you won or lost, now it just determines whether you get or don't get a small bonus chance at a win. Games are won not by smart play, they are won by tunneling. And just so we leave no stone unturned, tunneling well *DOES* take some skill (ie, I bet if we go fight right now I will out-tunnel you in equal gear), but it's not a lot of skill, you can master it very quickly.

Finally, a word of advice. When you aren't very experienced with something, don't make statements about it. Ask. Not many are going to be as patient at bizarre statements as this thread is, so you are going to "win" your arguments but these wins would be fake, the reality will be different and you will know no better.

This still doesn't explain Affliction. How is an immobile rot spec able to keep up in a meta full of burst heavy classes? The Warlock can spread aids and stack UAs all he likes but it's not going to be enough to cut the pressure of a Rogue or Monk and win without help. AKA peels and CC. You can ramble about how mongo comps can train down someone all you like, but in reality that's the nature of a mongo comp. That's how it has always been.

Pshero's video shows this happening in 2s. There's still no evidence of this happening in high rated 3s.

Taking this back to my original point that there are expansions worse than this, the very start of MoP was when triple BM Hunter comps were shitting on everything just by spamming their damage buttons, without any need for CC whatsoever. They were near unbeatable. And they weren't fixed until about a month later, as opposed to a single week for FDK and Destro at the start of 7.1. Even after the nerfs to BM, them along with Arms Warrior still made KFC a ridiculous mongo comp where they just spammed CC and MS debuffs on the kill target until they died (usually the healer because of Gag Order), or until Arms procced his Taste for Blood. In which case they died anyway. Even after all the fixes they made to PvP, in the last patch of the expansion Enh Shamans were able to cheese someone for almost all of their health.

I shouldn't need to go on. I've made this point countless times in this thread and people are still refusing to believe it. Why? Why are you guys so hellbent on making Legion look bad when it's really not that bad? I don't understand this logic. Using mob mentality against such a minor problem causes Blizzard to go overboard with their changes.

[Tyrannica]

All the 3s games I've seen from Pshero involve the same tactics that have been used in the last decade.

I don't give a damn about rating. You don't need a high rating to figure out the basics of PvP.

Uhm, i don't know what to say...other than thats bloody ignorant.

You don't want to listen to the best players and the majority of pvp players that could easily see the problem even at a lower rating by just playing this game. Question: Did you enter the arena in this season? Whats your rating there?

Its important to understand the game mechanics, before we could seriously discuss balance. Iam sorry to say it, but its an requirement, i was invited to a balance team to a strategy game, because i was on top of the ladder. No one would take me serious, if i would be bad at that game and not in touch with all the other good players in the ladder. WoW must follow the same rules like all other games, right?

Hence, please proove your claims its not as unbalanced as we would think - where are the top players of each class claiming that? Could you please provide a link or any info on that, because i was unable to find that?

Truth is, that one "salty rogue", debunked you and will continue to do so, since i do not see a miracle on the horizon that will bring us better balance. If so many classes are radical changed in their mechanics and numbers are off, thats just not possible.

And whoever did the pvp templates should consider to do another job and never touch wow pvp again. It made things worser and puts a broken design more in favor of most mongolid melee mechanics and their specs out there. I played both sides in arenas, since i got the time to afford twinks.(for now) For example DKs: currently an unholy dk could not hold a candle to the frost dk what is just a shame, both burst and dmg is pretty low in comparission to a frost dk, who just does not need revamp for high numbers in a meta where you can be globaled in seconds. Nothing is balanced in this game. Hence, Legion PvP is unbalanced and pretty dead, too.

[Spoonman]

This thread is basicily about everyone think its unbalanced and OP keeps tries to convince us its not?

[Teri]

Vengeance DH feels pretty useless in battlegrounds , we got the "low dps" of a tank without the reliable survival compared to PvE.

Sure there's a lot of CC sigils and slows, and mobility, but reliance on pain generation and soul fragments is terrible.

Soul fragments simply don't generate enough and are used for healing OR shield OR damage, even with the 40 pain-2 fragments melee talent.

The 25% dmg taken increase talent on targets attacked by 5 people is great for conquest/AV high hp mobs but really those 2 BG are PvE-ish.

Reverse Magic or Eye of Leotheras sound cool on paper but both DH spec get that so it's not very unique and very situational on too long cooldowns.

I think the Vengeance template and talents need some Quality tweaking.

Also a weird gimmick is you can pretty much "heal" by damaging your teammates if you use the 50/50 hp share talent

My holy paladin can do far more damage, survive much better while mass healing/supporting the team with the same hp and more passive armor at similar itemlevel.

[Lightbull]

This thread is basicily about everyone think its unbalanced and OP keeps tries to convince us its not?

Gonna clarify here that I don't think it's balanced either. There are pretty obvious flaws in balance, I said that in the OP.

I'm trying to prove that it's not as unbalanced as it was in the past. And people continue to be ignorant about that.

Uhm, i don't know what to say...other than thats bloody ignorant.

You don't want to listen to the best players and the majority of pvp players that could easily see the problem even at a lower rating by just playing this game. Question: Did you enter the arena in this season? Whats your rating there?

Its important to understand the game mechanics, before we could seriously discuss balance. Iam sorry to say it, but its an requirement, i was invited to a balance team to a strategy game, because i was on top of the ladder. No one would take me serious, if i would be bad at that game and not in touch with all the other good players in the ladder. WoW must follow the same rules like all other games, right?

Hence, please proove your claims its not as unbalanced as we would think - where are the top players of each class claiming that? Could you please provide a link or any info on that, because i was unable to find that?

Truth is, that one "salty rogue", debunked you and will continue to do so, since i do not see a miracle on the horizon that will bring us better balance. If so many classes are radical changed in their mechanics and numbers are off, thats just not possible.

And whoever did the pvp templates should consider to do another job and never touch wow pvp again. It made things worser and puts a broken design more in favor of most mongolid melee mechanics and their specs out there. I played both sides in arenas, since i got the time to afford twinks.(for now) For example DKs: currently an unholy dk could not hold a candle to the frost dk what is just a shame, both burst and dmg is pretty low in comparission to a frost dk, who just does not need revamp for high numbers in a meta where you can be globaled in seconds. Nothing is balanced in this game. Hence, Legion PvP is unbalanced and pretty dead, too.

I'd like to know what kind of strategy game invites the best player to the balance team. You need more than leet skillz in order to properly balance a game. Game design courses exist for a reason. With that said, you don't need to be a pro player to balance a game. How do you think Blizzard designed arena back in TBC to begin with? With your logic they were already good at arena therefore they could design arena.

The truth about online games like MMOs and MOBAs is that true balance doesn't exist. There is always going to be a strongest class and a weakest class. The metagame is an ever evolving cycle of just that. The pro players are correct when they say that the game is unbalanced, but they keep bringing up problems that were even worse in the past. In that video you posted about Dalaran pointing out what the glads have been saying, Nahj points out that WW Monk is better than Rogue in every way. Yeah, no shit. This problem has been around for years. In MoP, Arms was better than Rogue in every way.

Also, your argument on templates is ignorant. You're completely ignoring the flexibility it gives Blizzard to balance the game. Imagine Legion without stat templates. Every arena/BG would be a disaster because everything would be scaled like it is in World PvP, even if they brought back PvP gear. Tanks would rule PvP. Healers would die faster. Most burst cooldowns would kill in seconds. Half the specs in the game would be unviable. Legion looks bloody good compared to Wrath and MoP now huh?

I'll say it again, Legion doesn't have the "worst balance ever". I keep on pointing out Wrath and MoP with little effort and you don't have anything to counter that.

[shaunika123]

Let's just ignore the fact that before WoD most specs were completely unviable.

every single spec was rank1 viable in wrath s7/s8, literally(except for some 2nd/3rd specs of pure dps classes but even most of those were good)

then again balance does not equal fun, legion pvp is awful regardless if it's balanced or not