Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

This simply isn't true. I can get 4 SS + 1 finisher inside dance probably 99% of the time, without boots or procs. Procs allow 4 SS + finisher + SoD. I suspect the difficulty is down to latency since I have a 15ms ping and for the last SS I just spam the button and it hits just as dance ends. The benefit of the boots largely hinges on latency I suspect, which people are not factoring into dps calculations. The default latency on simulationcraft is 100ms which is extremely high for most Europeans on optical cable, even the "super low" setting of 25ms is more like a normal connection.

you need to have a high haste value.
else its practical not possible.

if your haste value is not extremely high can you pls do the calculation with it and post a log to show this.

[Maelstrom51]

This simply isn't true. I can get 4 SS + 1 finisher inside dance probably 99% of the time, without boots or procs. Procs allow 4 SS + finisher + SoD. I suspect the difficulty is down to latency since I have a 15ms ping and for the last SS I just spam the button and it hits just as dance ends. The benefit of the boots largely hinges on latency I suspect, which people are not factoring into dps calculations. The default latency on simulationcraft is 100ms which is extremely high for most Europeans on optical cable, even the "super low" setting of 25ms is more like a normal connection.

Unless you have extremely high haste you can only get four Shadowstrikes on an energetic stabbing proc on the first three Shadowstrikes or double Ruthlessness proc. This has a 1 - ( 0.75 * 0.75 * 0.8 * 0.75 ) = 66% chance of happening assuming. You need two procs to get four Shadowstrikes and refresh symbols.

[Seliar]

This simply isn't true. I can get 4 SS + 1 finisher inside dance probably 99% of the time, without boots or procs. Procs allow 4 SS + finisher + SoD. I suspect the difficulty is down to latency since I have a 15ms ping and for the last SS I just spam the button and it hits just as dance ends. The benefit of the boots largely hinges on latency I suspect, which people are not factoring into dps calculations. The default latency on simulationcraft is 100ms which is extremely high for most Europeans on optical cable, even the "super low" setting of 25ms is more like a normal connection.

4 ss + evis costs a total of 155 energy while 4 ss + nightblade costs 145 energy. Let's say you start you sd with 100 energy (most of the time it's less than 100 cuz no one pools for 70 energy before dancing, only for 65-68) and you regenerate 50 energy while dancing for a total of 150 energy. Now tell me pls, how can you spend 155 energy from 150? What you said is only possible, if you have more than 10% haste.

[Astronom]

Speaking of sub there is of course a very obvious problem with first tier talents. Gloomblade does about the same damage as Backstab. More than backstab in front of the target, less than if behind. Which would be okay if Gloomblade were a straight replacement for Backstab, as you would swapping a small amount of dps for the convenience of not having to worry about positioning.

The problem is that Gloomblade does not compensate for not being able to select the opposing Tier 1 talent (Master of Subtlety or Weaponmaster). If Gloomblade were to be truly competitive it would have to be buffed to do more damage than Backstab (probably considerably more, considering what a small part of overall dps Backstab is for skilled sub rogues, and how powerful MoS in particular is).

This is a really silly oversight for professional games designers to make. As it stands, Gloomblade is completely useless in PvE and PvP and only maybe useful in solo questing.

[Celfydd]

Gloomblade does about the same damage as Backstab. More than backstab in front of the target, less than if behind.

It always does more effective damage than Backstab, even from behind, unless your target has zero armour. You haven't taken into account that it does shadow damage, not physical which is reduced by armour.

[Astronom]

It always does more effective damage than Backstab, even from behind, unless your target has zero armour. You haven't taken into account that it does shadow damage, not physical which is reduced by armour.

Good point, but does it do enough extra damage to justify not being able to take Master of Subtlety or Weaponmaster? You could justify it doing a bit less damage overall due to the convenience of not having to worry about positioning. Looking at other comments about this issue, it seems that by taking Gloomblade you are losing considerable dps however.

[lolpve]

4 ss + evis costs a total of 155 energy while 4 ss + nightblade costs 145 energy. Let's say you start you sd with 100 energy (most of the time it's less than 100 cuz no one pools for 70 energy before dancing, only for 65-68) and you regenerate 50 energy while dancing for a total of 150 energy. Now tell me pls, how can you spend 155 energy from 150? What you said is only possible, if you have more than 10% haste.

7%, but I have the arcway neck with 5% more energy. I figure everyone uses that thing for this reason. Point stands, you don't need boots to reliably do that rotation unless your gearing is off or latency is high.

[Maelstrom51]

7%, but I have the arcway neck with 5% more energy. I figure everyone uses that thing for this reason. Point stands, you don't need boots to reliably do that rotation unless your gearing is off or latency is high.

Even with 7% haste and the energy neck you're missing 7 energy on Eviscerate cycles without procs.

105 - 40 + 11 - 40 + 11 - 35 + 11 + 40 - 40 + 10 = 33 energy remaining with one GCD to go.

Link logs and we can just be done with this.

[Thrillhouse918]

Anyone else happy with the DOUBLING of our Goremaw damage in 7.1.5?

[Todesbote]

This is a really silly oversight for professional games designers to make. As it stands, Gloomblade is completely useless in PvE and PvP and only maybe useful in solo questing.

Yeah this was reported during beta by me personally at least 5 times and many other rogues also said this. Unfortunately they did not listen but I'm not surprised given that nobody at Blizz seemed to even read that forum during beta.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone else happy with the DOUBLING of our Goremaw damage in 7.1.5?

Double of almost nothing is still almost nothing? In my last Mythic Guarm kill it did 0.9% of my total damage. Yeah sure I'll take double damage if it's free but that won't change my mind from seeing it as a mini-boost to our CP/Energy/SD juggle rotation with a marginal damage component.

If they wanted to make it more meaningful and impactful to the spec they should instead have reduced the CD or increased the gained energy or CPs imo.

So compared to WW, Mages or even Assa or Outlaw Rogue's artifact ability - no I'm not really happy with Boremaw's Bite.

[shaunika123]

7%, but I have the arcway neck with 5% more energy. I figure everyone uses that thing for this reason. Point stands, you don't need boots to reliably do that rotation unless your gearing is off or latency is high.

being able to ditch that neck for a mastery/versa one in and of itself is fantastic.

srsly just check my logs without boots and with boots
my dps went up by like 30-50k on every boss

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../10/#boss=1853

these are my nythendra logs for example i got the boots sometime after nov 16 look at the first log after that.
but you can check all others.

being able to symbols without losing an SS
being able to dance on lower energy numbers
being able to weave in a few backstabs during the opener for 2cp each
all add up to a LOT of dmg

[Ustabil]

Symbols of Death is not on the gcd and you can use that while doing an SS. With Boots you don't have to worry about SoD, refresh it when you need it because you will have always the energy. Without boots it will take the place of 1 SS.

Very good, i had completely forgotten that. Its starting to make more sense now with to yours and korkk's feedback.

The boots are not OP cause it increases our energy by huge ammounts, the biggest reasons is that it will let anyone with the boots to get 4 Shadow Strikes every Shadow Dance, regardless if you need to use Symbols of Death or having 0 proc or 0 haste.

Even tho you can get 4 SS in each shadow dance without the boots, you seem to rely on some RNG to be able to do so, even tho it might feel in the short term that you can get 4 SS in every Shadowdance 90% of the time. Prob only closer to 75% of the time. And those 25% of 1 extra shadow strike is what counts. The boots doesnt add huge ammount of extra finnisher or backstab dmg, it just simply adds a lot more of shadow strike dmg and smoothens the playstyle out to not rely at rng at all, and make the class a lot more forgiving

[elfporn]

Very good, i had completely forgotten that. Its starting to make more sense now with to yours and korkk's feedback.

The boots are not OP cause it increases our energy by huge ammounts, the biggest reasons is that it will let anyone with the boots to get 4 Shadow Strikes every Shadow Dance, regardless if you need to use Symbols of Death or having 0 proc or 0 haste.

Even tho you can get 4 SS in each shadow dance without the boots, you seem to rely on some RNG to be able to do so, even tho it might feel in the short term that you can get 4 SS in every Shadowdance 90% of the time. Prob only closer to 75% of the time. And those 25% of 1 extra shadow strike is what counts. The boots doesnt add huge ammount of extra finnisher or backstab dmg, it just simply adds a lot more of shadow strike dmg and smoothens the playstyle out to not rely at rng at all, and make the class a lot more forgiving

Again, The boots are OP because they almost double your energy regen.

When we say that we're not saying that the 10-20 energy return from the legendary effect almost doubles your energy gen.

We're saying that equipping the boots alters playstyle and rotation enough that it almost doubles energy regen, in addition to the energy return effect that's actually on the boots.

Seems like you went a roundabout way to convince yourself, but i think you're there now.

- - - Updated - - -

I took a look at my stats on live as compared to ptr today and i'm really not sure that i like what i'm seeing....

-5.51% crit
-2.76% mastery
-0.38% versa
+.16% haste

Live AGI - 28240 (17869 on gear) + 10371
PTR AGI - 29165 (18750 on gear) + 10415

+925 agi

Live Wep DPS: 24371.60
PTR Wep DPS: 23102.55

-1269.05 Wep DPS

It may be out of context with changes to abilities/traits, but it's still disheartening.

They should never have compensated for bad design with short-term scaling at launch, followed by this rollback they are implementing 4 months later.1

[Maelstrom51]

I'm not too worried about the stat changes. The added agi and 7% buff to our abilities more than makes up for them. We're also affected less by the changes than a lot of classes - we have no procs based on secondary stats, and agility is our best stat by a significant amount.

[Seliar]

Even with 7% haste and the energy neck you're missing 7 energy on Eviscerate cycles without procs.

105 - 40 + 11 - 40 + 11 - 35 + 11 + 40 - 40 + 10 = 33 energy remaining with one GCD to go.

Link logs and we can just be done with this.

You will regenerate the missing 7 energy in the last gcd and you will be able to cast the 4th ss with good latency.

(105 - 40)[0 second] + (11 - 40)[1st s] + (11 - 35 + 40)[2nd s] + (11 - 40)[3rd s] + 10[4th s] = 33 energy -> you will need only 0.7 second to regenerate the missing 7 energy and you have 1.0 seconds left from your shadow dance, so it's entirely possibly with the arcway neck.

[Xvolte]

Is master of subtlety actually worse than weaponmaster? I was looking up the top 2 sub rogues in the US last night, and I noticed that both of them were using master of subtlety.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...an/Gahd/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ne/Jazu/simple

Also, how in the fuck are they able to pull 600k+ ursoc DPS? Are the boots really that much better than the bracers? They only have 10 ilvls on me, but are pulling 200k DPS higher. I have the bracers and the ring.

[lolpve]

You will regenerate the missing 7 energy in the last gcd and you will be able to cast the 4th ss with good latency.

(105 - 40)[0 second] + (11 - 40)[1st s] + (11 - 35 + 40)[2nd s] + (11 - 40)[3rd s] + 10[4th s] = 33 energy -> you will need only 0.7 second to regenerate the missing 7 energy and you have 1.0 seconds left from your shadow dance, so it's entirely possibly with the arcway neck.

Thankyou, I couldn't be bothered to explain it myself. Imo that neck is pretty much mandatory until getting boots (assuming taking DS over vigor).

[Fiftyonred]

Yep burned out here too. I was lucky and got insignia first so I can't complain but got neck 2nd which actually isn't THAT bad, the absorb shield is pretty huge. But its clearly nothing to boots or belt and I massively outgear mythic dungeons so no point running them anymore even if loot titanforges. And other than the 1-2 mythic+ dungeons for weekly chest, I don't look forward to browsing through pug groups getting declined because Im not a fire mage or WW monk. So that only leaves raids and daily cache which is a small chance and just have to wait for that pity timer to clock up....boring.

If you massively outgear mythic dungeons, which would mean even 15+ then I simply do not believe you get declined for anything.

[Maelstrom51]

You will regenerate the missing 7 energy in the last gcd and you will be able to cast the 4th ss with good latency.

(105 - 40)[0 second] + (11 - 40)[1st s] + (11 - 35 + 40)[2nd s] + (11 - 40)[3rd s] + 10[4th s] = 33 energy -> you will need only 0.7 second to regenerate the missing 7 energy and you have 1.0 seconds left from your shadow dance, so it's entirely possibly with the arcway neck.

You don't actually get the full GCD - if the Shadowstrike animation does not finish while Shadowdance is up, then it cancels. You get about half a second leeway.

[mcrx]

yes the boots is that op. it just makes ur rotation so fluid u wont/cant make a mistake ever