7.1.5 new PTR MM actually BUFFED from live

[Megotaku77]

So, with the new patient sniper design, it ramps up the damage on vulnerable, but I've noticed if you get a vulnerable buff again it resets it back to 100% increase, so if we used this talent does this mean we would want to try and avoid getting a vulnerable buff again until the current one drops off completely? Is the new patient sniper a select and forget talent that will give us an average of x% increase over the fight or is it a talent that we need to track and manage?

I think the extent of tracking for most players will be to remember to pop an Arcane Shot before unloading your focus. That's generally what I've seen from PTR testers. Sidewinders users will probably not see a major difference from pre-patch since the focus penalty means waiting that GCD is getting the 15 focus back you would have gotten pre-patch before unloading for PS bonuses.

Honestly, I don't think very much is changing this patch except we have more talents to work with, our single target is markedly better and our AoE is markedly worse. WoD fanboys aren't getting their messiah spec back, but no one with a functioning brain expected that anyway. So I don't think the screaming cry-baby tantrums are over by a long shot (even if we end up being top 5 in aggregate parses), we'll be in a much stronger position to switch between competitive specs for all forms of content. Our kit has become very, very strong from what I'm seeing.

[Sarevokcz]

I think the extent of tracking for most players will be to remember to pop an Arcane Shot before unloading your focus. That's generally what I've seen from PTR testers. Sidewinders users will probably not see a major difference from pre-patch since the focus penalty means waiting that GCD is getting the 15 focus back you would have gotten pre-patch before unloading for PS bonuses.

Honestly, I don't think very much is changing this patch except we have more talents to work with, our single target is markedly better and our AoE is markedly worse. WoD fanboys aren't getting their messiah spec back, but no one with a functioning brain expected that anyway. So I don't think the screaming cry-baby tantrums are over by a long shot (even if we end up being top 5 in aggregate parses), we'll be in a much stronger position to switch between competitive specs for all forms of content. Our kit has become very, very strong from what I'm seeing.

ST doesnt seem to be going into godmode tbh and other low ST specs got buffs too, also without SW, MM doesnt really have a reliable target switch for burn, thats always a big weakness in my eyes and probably one of the reasons, why MM is such a junk on bosses like odyn and its still pretty immobile spec unless you get lucky with gloves and jury is still out on our cleave/aoe. But atleast were getting traps back.

I see our 7.1.5 kit as "fine" for now

[Kirbypro]

I saw some vid that showed Piercing shot hitting like a truck, 4.5mil+ i think? I think that's pretty cool.

[Megotaku77]

I see our 7.1.5 kit as "fine" for now

This isn't being combative, this is an honest question. Which Ranged DPS do you feel has a stronger kit than MM currently? From my research on 7.1.5, MM is going to be the most balanced ranged spec in the game. You don't feel that way and I would like to know which RDPS can boast better?

[Sarevokcz]

This isn't being combative, this is an honest question. Which Ranged DPS do you feel has a stronger kit than MM currently? From my research on 7.1.5, MM is going to be the most balanced ranged spec in the game. You don't feel that way and I would like to know which RDPS can boast better?

considering the kit as "fine" means in my book pretty much balanced with its advantages and disadvantages, I dont really feel like it needs comparing to other specs, since it has to be good enough on its own and not be about "but ele has it worse, stop complaining."

MM will be even worse at mobile dps, since we will need to evaluate every single marked shot/SW during movement as it means resetting patient sniper and MM has really bad, autoshot RNG dependant target switching unless specced into SW snd unless something changes, worse resource pooling, since max focus is 120 now.
On the other hand it has okay, if bit boring ST mechanics and good cleave, clustered AoE and spread AoE mechanics + traps. Put together is in my book "fine" kit.

[Kirbypro]

Anybody doing PTR, how much CD reduction on Trueshot do you need to stack to get the CD below 1 minute (with the 2set bonus of course).

Do you need 3 trueshot relics + boots or boots + less relics.

[Megotaku77]

considering the kit as "fine" means in my book pretty much balanced with its advantages and disadvantages, I dont really feel like it needs comparing to other specs, since it has to be good enough on its own and not be about "but ele has it worse, stop complaining."

MM will be even worse at mobile dps, since we will need to evaluate every single marked shot/SW during movement as it means resetting patient sniper and MM has really bad, autoshot RNG dependant target switching unless specced into SW snd unless something changes, worse resource pooling, since max focus is 120 now.
On the other hand it has okay, if bit boring ST mechanics and good cleave, clustered AoE and spread AoE mechanics + traps. Put together is in my book "fine" kit.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but "fine" indicates to me that a spec is mediocre. Not good, not bad. It's an indication to me that you feel Hunter's kit is "average" when compared with other RDPS. When asked which spec you feel in the RDPS line (the only archetype a MM/BM hunter should ever be compared against) which RDPS has a better kit, you avoided the question. Is this because you believe the Hunter kit is actually the best in the RDPS line? If that's the case, why do you feel it is not an issue when you label every kit as "bad" and the best kit is "fine"? Isn't that just toxic cynicism?

[Sarevokcz]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but "fine" indicates to me that a spec is mediocre. Not good, not bad. It's an indication to me that you feel Hunter's kit is "average" when compared with other RDPS. When asked which spec you feel in the RDPS line (the only archetype a MM/BM hunter should ever be compared against) which RDPS has a better kit, you avoided the question. Is this because you believe the Hunter kit is actually the best in the RDPS line? If that's the case, why do you feel it is not an issue when you label every kit as "bad" and the best kit is "fine"? Isn't that just toxic cynicism?

I dont really see your point? do you believe hunter is anything but mediocre? but fine, since you need comparisons, fire mage and SP have more well rounded kits while ele... has not, and i dont play warlock to make a statement about them, otherwise atleast one spec would be up there, too, number tuning notwithstanding

[Megotaku77]

I dont really see your point? do you believe hunter is anything but mediocre? but fine, since you need comparisons, fire mage and SP have more well rounded kits while ele... has not, and i dont play warlock to make a statement about them, otherwise atleast one spec would be up there, too, number tuning notwithstanding

No, I don't believe Hunter is mediocre and neither do bleeding edge raiding guilds who consistently stack Hunters (specifically MM) in all content, including content MM Hunters complain about being weak in (single target). MM Hunter has no issue being represented in all levels of content specifically because our kit on live was fine when compared to all other ranged specs except Fire. The point is if everyone is bad then no one is bad. You can't have everyone in the game being "garbage tier", but if you listen to the average player that frequents these forums and the official forums then every single class in the game is "garbage tier" except the most overpowered dead men walking at the top.

You said Fire had a more well rounded kit which I agree with. Emphasis on "had". Their kit has been reduced drastically in 7.1.5 and they are in a much, much worse position than MM Hunter going into 7.1.5. Conversations are currently being had about guilds forcing their Mages to go Arcane and abandon Fire due to how much inferior Fire may become as a result of the changes to their spec, including a radical reduction of their mobility through the removal of Ice Floes.

As to SPriest having a more well rounded kit I can only ask "lolwut"? What basis do you have for this? They have no burst cleave, among the worst AoE in the game and incredible ramp up time for their single target. Their DPS doesn't even rise to "mediocre" until they begin execution phase and all of their personal survivability is used to not die during S2M. In what universe is SPriest's kit anything but a complete nightmare for anyone unfortunate enough to have to play it?

[Deleted]

disclaimer: i dont give a damn about low level m+, lfr, rnd hc or nhc/hc raids.

No, I don't believe Hunter is mediocre and neither do bleeding edge raiding guilds who consistently stack Hunters (specifically MM) in all content, including content MM Hunters complain about being weak in (single target). MM Hunter has no issue being represented in all levels of content specifically because our kit on live was fine when compared to all other ranged specs except Fire. The point is if everyone is bad then no one is bad. You can't have everyone in the game being "garbage tier", but if you listen to the average player that frequents these forums and the official forums then every single class in the game is "garbage tier" except the most overpowered dead men walking at the top.

we're currently pretty much garbage tier in tov. poor on odyn, guam and mediocore on helya. were great at padding meters on heroic helya though. didnt follow the world first race too much besides wowprogress listing but top guilds probably carried hunters through odyn/guarm expecting them to shine on helya or even sat them. lower guilds bring hunters because the alts are even more garbage than hunters unless you grinded 400+ m+ on your alts to get legs instead of pushing your main to 35 traits.

You said Fire had a more well rounded kit which I agree with. Emphasis on "had". Their kit has been reduced drastically in 7.1.5 and they are in a much, much worse position than MM Hunter going into 7.1.5. Conversations are currently being had about guilds forcing their Mages to go Arcane and abandon Fire due to how much inferior Fire may become as a result of the changes to their spec, including a radical reduction of their mobility through the removal of Ice Floes.

mages have a much more rounded toolkit than we have. period. we have 2 range dps with very similar strenghts (+aoe/cleave; - ST). hunter speccs are extremely redundant. i fail to understand why were pretty much the only pure class with only one (viable) specc.

As to SPriest having a more well rounded kit I can only ask "lolwut"? What basis do you have for this? They have no burst cleave, among the worst AoE in the game and incredible ramp up time for their single target. Their DPS doesn't even rise to "mediocre" until they begin execution phase and all of their personal survivability is used to not die during S2M. In what universe is SPriest's kit anything but a complete nightmare for anyone unfortunate enough to have to play it?

SPs obviously dont have a more rounded kit than we do. but theyre much more valuable/stackable than hunters. because of absurdly high dmg on almost every fight whereas were kings of number padding on some fights. our cleave is also nice on wisps and bloods but thats about it.

apparently hunters have been great for method on helya, warcraftlogs lists them as average though.

[Megotaku77]

disclaimer: i dont give a damn about low level m+, lfr, rnd hc or nhc/hc raids.


we're currently pretty much garbage tier in tov. poor on odyn, guam and mediocore on helya. were great at padding meters on heroic helya though. didnt follow the world first race too much besides wowprogress listing but top guilds probably carried hunters through odyn/guarm expecting them to shine on helya or even sat them. lower guilds bring hunters because the alts are even more garbage than hunters unless you grinded 400+ m+ on your alts to get legs instead of pushing your main to 35 traits.

The world first race is, frankly, totally irrelevant. If you are in such a guild, you likely aren't bitching about MM Hunter because you have 4 other similarly geared "mains" of other specs. We're talking about people who went on the record about deleting their 110 characters for another crack at the 4 legendary soft cap. The simple fact is what the world firsters do has less than nothing to do with what even the Bleeding Edge guilds do.

mages have a much more rounded toolkit than we have. period. we have 2 range dps with very similar strenghts (+aoe/cleave; - ST). hunter speccs are extremely redundant. i fail to understand why were pretty much the only pure class with only one (viable) specc.

It's pretty clear here that you don't know what you're talking about. Fire is well below median on ST with good cleave/AoE. Frost can't cleave/AoE and actively avoids the stats Fire stacks while stacking the secondary stat Fire avoids. Arcane pre-patch is only slightly above median on ST and cannot cleave or AoE competently due to their AoE being tied to a PBAOE.

If you contend any individual Mage spec after 7.1.5 drops has a kit comparable with our single MM spec, I'd have to ask what you're smoking. If you think that "being able to switch to a spec good at other things" means they have an excellent kit, remember they need completely different sets of gear, split their AP between three weapons, AND have grinded enough to get BiS DPS legendaries for all 3 specs. You can't be serious.

SPs obviously dont have a more rounded kit than we do. but theyre much more valuable/stackable than hunters. because of absurdly high dmg on almost every fight whereas were kings of number padding on some fights. our cleave is also nice on wisps and bloods but thats about it.

apparently hunters have been great for method on helya, warcraftlogs lists them as average though.

That's an interesting hypothesis. Only one problem: it's obviously false and falls apart at the smallest amount of scrutiny. MM Hunter parses on M-Odyn outnumber SPriest parses. Hunters are the 2nd most taken spec for M-Odyn period according to Warcraft Logs.

SPriests only outnumber Hunter on M-Guarm by 27 parses. That means their representation is a mere 4.5% greater than MM Hunter... which is still the 4th most taken class to M-Guarm. If you include BM, then the Hunter class is brought significantly more than SPriest.

Oh and for the public parses on M-Helya, MM Hunters outnumber SPriests by 28%. The bottom line is MM Hunters aren't being sat. Period. Not for SPriests, not for anyone. They are, in fact, being stacked. Repeatedly, on every fight, on every difficulty. You don't get there by being a "mediocre" class.

[Deleted]

The world first race is, frankly, totally irrelevant. If you are in such a guild, you likely aren't bitching about MM Hunter because you have 4 other similarly geared "mains" of other specs. We're talking about people who went on the record about deleting their 110 characters for another crack at the 4 legendary soft cap. The simple fact is what the world firsters do has less than nothing to do with what even the Bleeding Edge guilds do.


It's pretty clear here that you don't know what you're talking about. Fire is well below median on ST with good cleave/AoE. Frost can't cleave/AoE and actively avoids the stats Fire stacks while stacking the secondary stat Fire avoids. Arcane pre-patch is only slightly above median on ST and cannot cleave or AoE competently due to their AoE being tied to a PBAOE.

and all 3 hunter speccs are well below every magespecc including fire on ST. mage is mediocore, hunter is garbage. whats your point?
also i see classes as a package. just because most mages refuse to play different specc and stay with the easy one doesnt account for anything.

im well aware of the mage issues though. i have a mage alt which i leveled 2 days after release and intended to play as my primary alt. cant be arsed to do more than daily emissiary with him because fire is rather useless without bracers and mm is way more fun in m+.
to me fire feels like a washed down version of mm. less cleave, better ST but not by enough to justify keeping him as backup. i have to admit that i prefer fotm alts. hence my mage is my 3rd alt behind enh and rogue.

If you contend any individual Mage spec after 7.1.5 drops has a kit comparable with our single MM spec, I'd have to ask what you're smoking. If you think that "being able to switch to a spec good at other things" means they have an excellent kit, remember they need completely different sets of gear, split their AP between three weapons, AND have grinded enough to get BiS DPS legendaries for all 3 specs. You can't be serious.

i never claimed mages could utilize their kit to the max. doesnt mean they dont have the better kit. especially frost (and to a lesser extent arcane) seem to be doing just fine without a specc specific dps leg on ST, whereas again all hunter speccs are garbage on ST. mages also have the benefit of a great specc wide leg.
anyways i still stand with the hypothesis thats its way better to have different nisches even if you cannot maximize every specc compared to our redundancy.

That's an interesting hypothesis. Only one problem: it's obviously false and falls apart at the smallest amount of scrutiny. MM Hunter parses on M-Odyn outnumber SPriest parses. Hunters are the 2nd most taken spec for M-Odyn period according to Warcraft Logs.

SPriests only outnumber Hunter on M-Guarm by 27 parses. That means their representation is a mere 4.5% greater than MM Hunter... which is still the 4th most taken class to M-Guarm. If you include BM, then the Hunter class is brought significantly more than SPriest.

Oh and for the public parses on M-Helya, MM Hunters outnumber SPriests by 28%. The bottom line is MM Hunters aren't being sat. Period. Not for SPriests, not for anyone. They are, in fact, being stacked. Repeatedly, on every fight, on every difficulty. You don't get there by being a "mediocre" class.

so theres way less SPs than hunters. hunters are popular. thats big news. i never claimed anything else. theyre stacked because theres way more competent hunters than SPs. no sane raidleader would pick an equally skilled hunter over a sp for extra raidslots. theres just very few of those. their skill ceiling is also alot higher than the dumbed down version of a relative simple class we play.

[Megotaku77]

That's why the crybaby shit is pointless. "MM sucks and is being sat". No, they aren't. "Oh... well they're just popular and should be sat. They aren't viable". But, they aren't being sat. They're being taken by the hundreds. And the content is being done. At a world first level. Hunter is very strong and getting stronger. If you want to cry about ST, go play one of the "god-tier" ST classes and figure out the hard way why they are under-represented.

And your response about Mages? Weak. A well geared MM Hunter will humiliate a Fire geared Frost mage. A well geared Fire Mage will humiliate a Fire geared Frost Mage. Mages don't have flexibility in their kit for switching specs and that, really, is the end of the story. The "golden child" is only as golden as the Emperor's clothes.

[dexx]

and all 3 hunter specs are well below every magespec including fire on ST. mage is mediocre, hunter is garbage.

Whats the best then?

[Megotaku77]

Whats the best then?

The one-trick pony SPriest that's being reworked and nerfed horrifically to bring S2M down hard. Frost Mage which most Mage players consider unplayable due to how beyond garbage and useless it's cleave/AoE is also do well in ST. Unfortunately, most players who frequent the Hunter forums are completely oblivious to how unbelievably valuable their AoE/Cleave is to raid leaders (which is why MM Hunter and Fire Mage outnumber all other ranged specs vastly).

[Deleted]

Did someone tryed on PTR full NH set with trinket and 3 quick shot relics and leg. boots???

Would like to know how much you can reduce CD of trueshot.

[Dracodraco]

Did someone tryed on PTR full NH set with trinket and 3 quick shot relics and leg. boots???

Would like to know how much you can reduce CD of trueshot.

with no real training in the "new" way of playing, using sidewinders, I was getting 50-55 sec cd on trueshot (so 15 sec up, ~35-40 sec down). The trinket isn't available yet, so just 3x trueshot relics, boots and set bonus. It's unlikely we can stick to 3x trueshot relics going through NH though, as we will be looking at relics of Ilvl 905-920 to replace our 880 ones. That's... Probably too much to pass up.

[Deleted]

with no real training in the "new" way of playing, using sidewinders, I was getting 50-55 sec cd on trueshot (so 15 sec up, ~35-40 sec down). The trinket isn't available yet, so just 3x trueshot relics, boots and set bonus. It's unlikely we can stick to 3x trueshot relics going through NH though, as we will be looking at relics of Ilvl 905-920 to replace our 880 ones. That's... Probably too much to pass up.

so if you miss relics and add trinket. u can get trueshot burst on cca every 2nd pack in Mythic+

Also i think in m+ not using SW will be better. so thx to boots arcane and multishot will reduce CD even more then SW

[Dracodraco]

so if you miss relics and add trinket. u can get trueshot burst on cca every 2nd pack in Mythic+

Sure. But keep in mind that part of what made Trueshot so powerful for AOE burst was the fact that it let you get multiple guaranteed marked shot procs off during the pack. Sure, the +50% crit dmg helped, but the real deal was the lowered CD of sidewinder and guaranteed marked shot procs.
Marked shot is neutered by 28% in the next patch, and we might not even be playing Sidewinders for M+; Trick shot is looking very strong for stacked AOE (which M+ largely is) Trueshot will still be strong during as it allows for more aimed shots, but honestly, I couldn't tell you if it'll be better or worse overall.

[Deleted]

Sure. But keep in mind that part of what made Trueshot so powerful for AOE burst was the fact that it let you get multiple guaranteed marked shot procs off during the pack. Sure, the +50% crit dmg helped, but the real deal was the lowered CD of sidewinder and guaranteed marked shot procs.
Marked shot is neutered by 28% in the next patch, and we might not even be playing Sidewinders for M+; Trick shot is looking very strong for stacked AOE (which M+ largely is) Trueshot will still be strong during as it allows for more aimed shots, but honestly, I couldn't tell you if it'll be better or worse overall.

well u can get incredible zerg thx multishot has 100% chance to aply vunl. in trueshot. so u just spam multi and marked. in those 15 secs u can get how many marked shots? 7-8?

+ u will mostly go for trickshot and with belt (i have it) u can get 1-2 aimeds on 20 stacs.
Also i have leg. ring so with so many marked shots those 15% can proc quite offten.