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  1. #21
    Part of the problem is that WoW forums are populated by angry, entitled children who are immune to things like context, nuance, and the definition of "iterative". And warlocks are some of the worst of the bunch, who will fly into a whining rage at the slightest hint of change. Please note that I'm not saying things are perfect, they're pretty obviously not. You guys are just... something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    Pretty much everything that's listed in here is spot on. Actually, i had forgotten some of these things, like being on fire as our embers filled.....being reminded of them only pisses me off more.

    And then i look on MMOC's front page to see that Shadow got buffed by 25% across the board.

    ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME????

    ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME????
    Like this guy, for instance. He reads one thing and then comes here to cry about it, completely ignorant of the context in which the changes are made or having even bothered to finish reading the blue post

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Part of the problem is that WoW forums are populated by angry, entitled children who are immune to things like context, nuance, and the definition of "iterative". And warlocks are some of the worst of the bunch, who will fly into a whining rage at the slightest hint of change. Please note that I'm not saying things are perfect, they're pretty obviously not. You guys are just... something else.


    Like this guy, for instance. He reads one thing and then comes here to cry about it, completely ignorant of the context in which the changes are made or having even bothered to finish reading the blue post
    F-off.

    I've been maining my lock since the new Destro Design in MoP. Full clear hard mode every raid tier on this damn thing and this current iteration is by far the worst and most unenjoyable to play.

    My main alt is an Spriest, which also use to be my main pre-Mop. Fact is, Spriest is not a spec that required the attention it has received. Spriest is by far more enjoyable to play. It's every bit as tanky as lock seeing as how you can cast PW:S on yourself every 5 seconds and gain a passive speed buff in the process.

    Spriest has an interrupt.

    Spriest has an execute.

    Spriest can lay down substantial damage in Cleave/Council fights AND top meters with StM in single target encounters.

    Spriest is one of the most complete casters in the freaking game and they've gotten a ton of attention from Devs while the current state of Locks is the worst i've ever played.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    F-off.

    I've been maining my lock since the new Destro Design in MoP. Full clear hard mode every raid tier on this damn thing and this current iteration is by far the worst and most unenjoyable to play.

    My main alt is an Spriest, which also use to be my main pre-Mop. Fact is, Spriest is not a spec that required the attention it has received. Spriest is by far more enjoyable to play. It's every bit as tanky as lock seeing as how you can cast PW:S on yourself every 5 seconds and gain a passive speed buff in the process.

    Spriest has an interrupt.

    Spriest has an execute.

    Spriest can lay down substantial damage in Cleave/Council fights AND top meters with StM in single target encounters.

    Spriest is one of the most complete casters in the freaking game and they've gotten a ton of attention from Devs while the current state of Locks is the worst i've ever played.
    Shadow Priest without Surrender is trash level of damage. There's a reason they are buffing their damage by that much.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwill View Post
    Shadow Priest without Surrender is trash level of damage. There's a reason they are buffing their damage by that much.
    Single target w/o surrender...sure. But does that matter since they all use Surrender? And it's far from trash damage on council style fights. It's one of the best specs for Odyn. IDC if they have to use StM or not, the point is that the capacity to deal high damage is there, while having good defensives, one of the best caster interrupts, spammable self heals, & high mobility.

    It's the most complete caster in the game and it feels like the Devs have devoted ample time to improving them while locks are largely in a state of decay.
    Last edited by Hendawgg; 2016-12-08 at 06:16 PM.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    Pretty much everything that's listed in here is spot on. Actually, i had forgotten some of these things, like being on fire as our embers filled.....being reminded of them only pisses me off more.

    And then i look on MMOC's front page to see that Shadow got buffed by 25% across the board.

    ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME????

    ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME????
    Because they are nerfing Shadow's damage in Voidform. Shadow Priest damage is really pretty godawful outside of Voidform, what they are doing with them is what they are doing with Fire Mages, spreading the damage rather than have extreme peaks and troughs

    In boss fights SP damage is generally on thelow side until they dotheir thing and then it goes ballistic

    However what I do disagree with is changes results in no change for Shadow Priest damage. They are consistently topping and not just in specialised niches the way destruction does in cleave either.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    Single target w/o surrender...sure. But does that matter since they all use Surrender? And it's far from trash damage on council style fights. It's one of the best specs for Odyn. IDC if they have to use StM or not, the point is that the capacity to deal high damage is there, while having good defensives, one of the best caster interrupts, spammable self heals, & high mobility.

    It's the most complete caster in the game and it feels like the Devs have devoted ample time to improving them while locks are largely in a state of decay.
    And StM is no 100% insanity instead of 150% and they lose 10% damage in Voidform. Context is important.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    Because they are nerfing Shadow's damage in Voidform. Shadow Priest damage is really pretty godawful outside of Voidform, what they are doing with them is what they are doing with Fire Mages, spreading the damage rather than have extreme peaks and troughs

    In boss fights SP damage is generally on thelow side until they dotheir thing and then it goes ballistic

    However what I do disagree with is changes results in no change for Shadow Priest damage. They are consistently topping and not just in specialised niches the way destruction does in cleave either.
    Im well aware of that. I raid with a very high parsing Spriest. He hangs out towards the bottom until the final 35-40% or so and then he rockets to top of the meter. Whether the damage comes at the start, middle or end, at the end of the encounter, he's put out more damage than the rest of us.

    And the damage isn't even my main complaint. The fact is, they do substantial dmg, Yes, with StM, while still maintaining a lot of their QoL perks, such as a speed boost being tied into PW:S on a (6?) second CD.

    My point being, locks needed attention far, far greater than Spriest did.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Moggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    The lack of an interrupt pisses me off to now end.


    Maybe it's because I've played a lock since the beginning, but at no point have Warlocks ever have a base interrupt minus Felhunters/Observers. Sure, the class is the only one without a baseline-not-attached-to-pet w/out one but it's not exactly shocking locks still do not have one nor is it only most locks' need to have list. Use a Felhunter or DG if you want an interrupt.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    For me, I found it ironic that the class that was good at ripping souls from its foes has, what feels like, had its own soul torn out. Each spec feels like a husk of what it once was, and they all feel very incomplete. When I first saw the alpha notes and the proposed changes I thought there was no way they'd let these things go through, they're just experimenting, right? Iconic abilities like demonic teleport and shadowburn were compromised into "100's of new talents!", meanwhile it feels like other specs in this game have been allowed to keep what was once a Warlocks (Transcendence for monks, etc). Each spec had a unique feel to it, and now they all share a resource system because? There were so many thoughtless changes, and I put partial blame on the Demon Hunter being released.

    I rerolled shadow priest when I saw that the response to feedback was generally poor and it was starting to become clear that the developers had no real idea of what to do with warlocks. I don't regret it as the damage I can deal is pretty absurd now, and shadow gets a lot more attention than warlock ever did, though I can't help but get upset when I log onto my old main and see the state that it has been left in.

    For an expansion themed around the Legion and every little tie the Warlock has with them, you'd think this would've been a good time for us dabblers, but instead, I'd argue this is the ugliest shambles of class design that's ever been put out.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Keturno View Post
    ...What has been changed in Legion that made the Warlock community not enjoy it? Was it over-nerfed? Did they introduce any new mechanic that isnt being very well recieved?...
    Demonology
    Imagine if you will a core class ability that has been part of the class since WotLK. The ability gets overhauled a few times. In Mist your class quest tell you that Warlocks are on the same path as a notable lore figure... thanks in part to that very same ability. In WoD you are basically ignored. Come Legion they rip an entire spec out of your class including that ability... doll it up and make an entirely new class out of it. Only they only have enough for half a class so they ship it with only two specs.

    Affliction
    Multi-dotting was fun and rewarding... now it's a chore that needs addons to be managed.

    Destruction
    Smooth resource building and spending... to very clunky and unrewarding building and spending.

    We went from one of the most fun classes with a good amount of skill, knowledge and depth to be competitive, rewarding and most of all fun... to functional without the fun and the previous lore ripped from us. In short we are mere specters of our former selves.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Moggie View Post
    Maybe it's because I've played a lock since the beginning, but at no point have Warlocks ever have a base interrupt minus Felhunters/Observers. Sure, the class is the only one without a baseline-not-attached-to-pet w/out one but it's not exactly shocking locks still do not have one nor is it only most locks' need to have list. Use a Felhunter or DG if you want an interrupt.
    And that comes at the sacrifice of both a playstyle and DPS. And the Fel pup is very unreliable in terms of being clutch compared to every other interrupt in the game. The original GoSac design was fine. It didn't need changing. Now, i agree that we shouldn't have been able to interrupt, sac, and then interrupt again. But they fixed that.

    With a multitude of target swapping, like say in an RBG situation or on a fight like Iggy, the felhunter simply isn't as reliable as being able to do it yourself, and comes at a damage loss.

  12. #32
    One of the things that completely break the class for me is the fact that Soul Shards - which are meant to empower your spells and abilities - are now designed to be a fundamental resource. You don't feel powerful using up a shard, you just do it because it's required to even cast a baseline spell.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You cannot do that while stunned.
    You die.
    You are dead.

  13. #33
    I'd imagine a large part of what it comes down to is that lock specs have tended to be heavily biased toward niches, which is fine when you can freely swap specs and be good at everything, not so much when you're locked into 1 spec and are limited to that specs strengths and weaknesses. This is exacerbated by other specs in the game being more well rounded and or stronger in the same niche, as well as locks becoming a purely sustained dps class having lost our burst in a game that has increasingly become focused around burst.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I'd imagine a large part of what it comes down to is that lock specs have tended to be heavily biased toward niches, which is fine when you can freely swap specs and be good at everything, not so much when you're locked into 1 spec and are limited to that specs strengths and weaknesses. This is exacerbated by other specs in the game being more well rounded and or stronger in the same niche, as well as locks becoming a purely sustained dps class having lost our burst in a game that has increasingly become focused around burst.
    So much This.

    Mythic Nythendra is a great example of this. Destro has to spec into a very, very niche build. A build that is completely useless in AoE situations. So, after you've killed Nythendra the trash packs thereafter are tedious and large. Unless i spend 600G to switch into an AoE setup, i'm completely useless during those trash packs. Once the trash is dead, now you need yet another Tome to get into the build needed for the next boss encounter. Now we're 1200G in, after just one boss kill. It's cost prohibitive now for me to be able to help on AoE in any sort of substantial basis.

    What once was a mighty AoE machine has been dismantled. I spec into an AoE build for fun in M+, but that comes at a significant cost to my boss damage.

    I loved Destro from MoP through WoD because we AoE bombed the heck out of things, dropped big time Chaos Bolts and executed with Sburn. It was a blast. Tons of big crits and big time AoE. It's a shell of what it use to be.

  15. #35
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    Agree with pretty much everything above - but for me the biggest problem was an overall redesign of the class for this expansion when we really didn't need much of it. Maybe Demo if they really needed to get Meta out of the toolbox. But Affliction and Destruction were in relatively good places in MoP and WoD. And not only did they tinker with them for whatever stupid reason (and this is the part that really pisses me off) they completely ignored literally months of feedback during Alpha and Beta so that we could have the borked specs we have now.

    Just as an example, Soul Effigy was savaged in feedback before Legion went live. And yet not only is it still here, given yesterday's Q&A it seems it is here to stay. I swear that this feels like someone on the lock class design team made Effigy there little pet project and is insisting that it stay no matter how stupid it is. And that person must have a picture of their boss doing something inappropriate with a goat because the mechanic is just that stupid. And as others mentioned the Affliction artifact is just bad. Pure bad design.
    Last edited by vassleer; 2016-12-08 at 11:12 PM.

  16. #36
    For me it's the visual and utility pruning.

    Lost fire aura, verdant spheres, glyph of wrathguard, glyph of nightmare, malefic grasp graphic on drain soul. Lost haunt and soulfire as baseline visuals as well. Outside demonology, the other two specs gained virtually nothing visually outside orange fire casting update (green fire was left low res).

    Then we lost demonic circle (which was made into a more cumbersome, macro reliant version and a talent), lost Shadowfury (made 1.5 sec cast talent when Leg Sweep is instant and Chaos Nova is baseline), lost dark pact baseline, lost burning rush. Healthstone healing feels anemic. All these weremade competing talents instead of getting brand new talents like some classes such as shamans and DK's did. We are one of the classes with the greatest amount of talent rows made up of recycled abilities that were pruned from being baseline.

    Demonic gateway received a whopping 2 minute debuff.

    Then you have an expansion that's all about demons, and all these new demon assets don't even make it into our visuals or cosmetic glyphs.

    They justify all the pruning under tanky caster, then proceed to constantly nerf warlock survival in PvP so an enhancement shaman with shamanism popped will kill you in under 15 seconds through undending resolve and dark pact shield. Mongo frost DK, ret pally, windwalker monks, and arms warriors are all shitting on warlock with the flurry of nerfs from casting circle to now drain essence, while melee stuns and interrupt chains go untouched.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    Most of the changes that no one asked for and made the class less fun to play.
    - removal of Burning Embers as a resource in exchange for Soul Shards "because of class fantasy", NOTHING has a better Destruction class fantasy than embers and yet they still removed it. And then they have the fucking gall to tell us "Oh, maybe the playstyle of embers suited Destruction better.". Fuck you Blizzard.
    - taking Backdraft and Shadowburn (both longtime backbone Destruction tools) and making them talents, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE talents as well...
    - taking Fire and Brimstone, and turning it into a talent that's worse than the original spell (just when they finally managed to land on a fun iteration of that spell). Couple this with the change to Rain of Fire and we have a MASSIVE ramp up for AoE and then we still barely do anything.
    - taking a longtime iconic Warlock ability, Demonic Circle, and turning it into a talent. And hell, before 7.1 it was even on the wrong talent row...
    - removing the water walk glyph for the Dreadsteed
    - stealing Demon form and giving it to Demon Hunters
    - fucking 3 secs baseline cast time on Chaos Bolt and it still hits like a wet noodle
    - remove that arcane crystal thing for mages because it makes for shit gameplay and then give us Soul Effigy. Is this a joke?
    - the fact that, at least for Destruction, you have to choose, do you want awful ST and even worse AoE? Or do you want awful AoE and rockbottom ST? Meanwhile, other classes can do both AoE and ST just fine in one talent selection.
    - removal of the interrupt from GoSac
    - removal of Soul Shatter (I used this frequently, thanks for pruning infrequently used abilities...)
    - removal of Dark Soul, leaving us with literally no DPS CD except a 10 min quadruple Infernal summon, which is pretty cool, but it has a 10 min CD!!! What's more, it isn't just the removal of Dark Soul, it used to have two charges as well which meant that it was a very versatile DPS CD usable whenever it was needed or you had procs. We went from having a very versatile CD to none at all. GG Blizzard.

    I don't understand, the MoP iteration of Destruction was the most fun spec I ever played and yet they managed to somewhat fuck it up in WoD (only good thing there was the change to FnB) and they have completely destroyed the spec in this expansion. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. How can anyone come up with this shit? How can you take an amazingly fun to play spec and turn it into this fucking atrocity? Do they even HAVE designers for Warlocks anymore?

    I have barely even touched Affliction this expansion so I cannot really comment on that, but from what other people say half the artifact traits do not even work, so there's that...

    Yes I am angry.
    Last edited by mmoc5a65aaa171; 2016-12-09 at 08:22 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorakh View Post
    - removal of Burning Embers as a resource in exchange for Soul Shards "because of class fantasy", NOTHING has a better Destruction class fantasy than embers and yet they still removed it. And then they have the fucking gall to tell us "Oh, maybe the playstyle of embers suited Destruction better.". Fuck you Blizzard.
    - taking Backdraft and Shadowburn (both longtime backbone Destruction tools) and making them talents, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE talents as well...
    - taking Fire and Brimstone, and turning it into a talent that's worse than the original spell (just when they finally managed to land on a fun iteration of that spell). Couple this with the change to Rain of Fire and we have a MASSIVE ramp up for AoE and then we still barely do anything.
    - taking a longtime iconic Warlock ability, Demonic Circle, and turning it into a talent. And hell, before 7.1 it was even on the wrong talent row...
    - removing the water walk glyph for the Dreadsteed
    - stealing Demon form and giving it to Demon Hunters
    - fucking 3 secs baseline cast time on Chaos Bolt and it still hits like a wet noodle
    - remove that arcane crystal thing for mages because it makes for shit gameplay and then give us Soul Effigy. Is this a joke?
    - the fact that, at least for Destruction, you have to choose, do you want awful ST and even worse AoE? Or do you want awful AoE and rockbottom ST? Meanwhile, other classes can do both AoE and ST just fine in one talent selection.
    - removal of the interrupt from GoSac

    I don't understand, the MoP iteration of Destruction was the most fun spec I ever played and yet they managed to somewhat fuck it up in WoD (only good thing there was the change to FnB) and they have completely destroyed the spec in this expansion. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. How can anyone come up with this shit? How can you take an amazingly fun to play spec and turn it into this fucking atrocity? Do they even HAVE designers for Warlocks anymore?

    I have barely even touched Affliction this expansion so I cannot really comment on that, but from what other people say half the artifact traits do not even work, so there's that...

    Yes I am angry.
    All of this. Amen, brother.

    It's not even about the damage really. Everything that made Destro great they destroyed.

    I know i've been ranting a bit today. I've always been that "wait and see" guy. I've always been that "It's not that bad" guy. I was the guy that would argue with what i've been posting today.

    But i've freakin' had it. This is awful. It's crap. I had gotten over it, but this thread is a reminder.

    If all you play is Warlock, then maybe it doesn't seem THAT bad to you. But the moment you switch over to Spriest or Mage you realize how bad Warlock really is to play, ESPECIALLY if you knew what it played like pre-Legion.

  19. #39
    To be fair, warlocks stole metamorphosis from DH, not the other way around. Metamorphosis has been a demonhunter thing since Illidan came into the picture.

    If DH had been introduced before they shifted demo to a metamorphosis playstyle, nobody would be complaining.

    Soul Shards are also a much older class resource than embers. The problem is how soul shards are gained, not what you call the resource.

    Warlocks have always been a class trading in souls and demons with some fel flame in the mix. If they restore partial soul shards to mimic embers and give destro warlocks the growing fire aura back, there's no problem with soul shards whatsoever.

    Same goes for affliction and their abysmal soul shard generation rate when they don't talent into soul effigy. The whole point of soul effigy is to amp up the soul shard generation for more UA's since generation baseline on a single target is too low.

    Demo shard generation is perfect. It's just that it is constrained heavily by movement, another challenge we'll have to face when they make you rely on incinerates to generate soul shards as you no longer generate as much from immolate ticks which works while you are moving.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2016-12-08 at 08:17 PM.

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendawgg View Post
    Im well aware of that. I raid with a very high parsing Spriest. He hangs out towards the bottom until the final 35-40% or so and then he rockets to top of the meter. Whether the damage comes at the start, middle or end, at the end of the encounter, he's put out more damage than the rest of us.

    And the damage isn't even my main complaint. The fact is, they do substantial dmg, Yes, with StM, while still maintaining a lot of their QoL perks, such as a speed boost being tied into PW:S on a (6?) second CD.

    My point being, locks needed attention far, far greater than Spriest did.
    StM produces the numbers, but I asked over on the Priest forum to get an idea how popular it is. It is a very divisive talent, particularly because there just isn't an alternative and its hard to gauge how many actually like it, or just happen to like the numbers - but there are very definitely those who hate it and even its fans respect that the lack of an alternative option is a serious issue.

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