Pitt Bulls Violent by Genetics or by Upbringing?

[Lady Dragonheart]

No, they are not violent due to genetics. The genetic reason why they are so frowned upon is because of their biting grip (not an involuntary lockjaw, as that is disproven). However, what makes them scary is that when they bite, they are bred to grip and hold an assailant in place. This aspect is what terrifies most people that encounter them. If you are bitten by a pitbull, it is significantly less likely that you will get away due to their bred ability to grip down and use their weight to hold someone down. Most people panic when finding out that they cannot get away, and as a result, often end up injuring themselves (or potentially getting themselves killed), but attacking the dog or using increasingly violent means to free themselves from the dog's grip.

[Gib Lover]

I hear ya. But the signs of intolerance are growing.

Now-a-days you can find that renters will prohibit the ownership of specifically pitbulls. If you own one, some insurance companies will charge you higher home owners rates.

The breed is definitely singled out above others. We may not be concerned with an extinction now, but I wouldn't be shocked to here mutterings of it in the future.

It's weird because I grew up afraid of rottweilers (despite owning one) and never being scared of pits. I can see why people are afraid of them, but when we start banning things because 34 people a year die from them, we will start banning a LOT of things. More people are going to die in car crashes by the time I press enter at the end of this post than die of dogbites in a year. However, I am aware a ton of people get mauled/bitten by dogs that don't die.

I'm just still not sure anything actually needs to be done about it. Let sleeping dogs lie, both figuratively and literally.

[nanook12]

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...-faq.php#media

Q: What is the best thing we can do for communities and pit bulls?

The best thing we can do for communities and pit bulls is to regulate pit bull ownership and pit bull breeding. Lowering the pit bull population will reduce the number of serious maulings and the euthanasia of pit bulls. In late 2014, Animals 24-7, a group that tracks shelter killings, estimated that of the 1.3 million shelter dogs projected for euthanasia in 2014, pit bulls accounted for 56%.22 This is true despite the fact that pit bulls only make up about 6% of the total U.S. dog population.23
Over 700 U.S. cities and nearly all privatized military housing -- the U.S. Army, U.S. Marine Corps and U.S. Air Force -- and many public housing authorities have breed-specific restrictions. Such measures often include: mandatory sterilization, liability insurance and strict containment rules. The most progressive law, a pit bull ban, prohibits new pit bulls and new pit bull breeding. In just a few years, these communities see a significant drop in pit bull bites and euthanasia of pit bulls.

[Kathandira]

That's true, but first people need to understand there is indeed a problem with these breeds, and as you can see here most of them are like "neah, I know some pitbulls, they are the nicest dogs eva" lol

I try not to be naive. I've worked in the industry for a while, and my g/f has been working as a Vet Tech for over 10 years. We are decently educated on animals and their behavior.

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http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...-faq.php#media

Q: Why do people say, "Pit bulls are dog-aggressive not human-aggressive?"

Due to selective breeding for the purposes of dogfighting, pit bulls are highly dog-aggressive. This aggression is not limited to dogs; pit bulls frequently kill other companion pets and domesticated animals. Leading pit bull education websites warn pit bull owners to, "Never trust your pit bull not to fight." These same websites also state that pit bulls should never be left alone with another dog or animal.20 The practical and moral question is: Why is "pit bull dog aggression" tolerated at all?
Pit bull dog aggression is unacceptable for two reasons. In many instances it leads to human aggression. A common scenario is the following: A loose pit bull attacks a leashed dog being walked by its owner. The owner gets seriously injured trying to stop the attack. Every year, one or more Americans suffers death due to pit bull dog aggression, including pit bull rescuers like Rita Woodard and Mary Jo Hunt who died while attempting to break up a fight between their pit bulls.
Secondly, far too many beloved companion pets and domesticated animals suffer a violent death by the powerful jaws of pit bull terriers each year. In some instances, these attacks involve pit bulls charging through screen doors of private homes -- in a home invasion attack -- to kill the pet living inside.21 Owners of the pet are then forced to watch as their dog or cat is disemboweled by the pit bull and pray that the animal does not turn its attention on an innocent family member next.

I'm not saying this isn't true about pitbulls. But nearly any breed should be treated the exact same way.

I don't care if it is a tea cup yorkie, or a mastif, you NEVER leave a dog unattended around people. Especially small children.

But that leads to a whole other issue of pet ownership and how lackadaisical people are about it. "Oh he is sweet! we can go in the other room and let little timmy play with him." Next thing you know, little timmy is screaming and bleeding, and the dog is wondering why you are beating it and yelling at it. Then the dog wonders why it is so sleepy on a cold steel table in a doctors office.......

[Kryos]

It is both. You can selectively breed animals for certain traits; in fact, we do so all of the time. That is why we have different dog breeds, with different innate tendencies. Herding dogs that have an instinct to herd, scent hounds, retrievers that love to carry things in their mouth, protection breeds. Behavior is a combination of GENETICS and ENVIRONMENT, it is folly to claim that behavior is only attributable to environment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253978/

This is a clip of a domesticated fox experiment in Russia. Foxes deemed aggressive were separated out from tame foxes, with the goal of creating a domesticated fox. Clear behavioral differences were apparent within a few breeding generations.
This is what happens when some people breed animals with aggression in mind.

Pitbulls are bred with aggression towards other dogs in mind and no violence toward humans. They are put in a pit to fight other dogs. When the owners decide to stop the fight they need to enter the pit and grab the dogs. The dogs are breed to not bite humans even in a fight. Check this video (starting at minute 3):

You see that the owners grab and move the dogs during the fight. If these dogs where just generally aggressive, they would attack the humans. They don't. They are very loyal.

That doesn't mean that you can't make pit bulls attack humans but german shepherd and other breeds are better for that job.

[Kathandira]

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...-faq.php#media

Q: What is the best thing we can do for communities and pit bulls?

The best thing we can do for communities and pit bulls is to regulate pit bull ownership and pit bull breeding. Lowering the pit bull population will reduce the number of serious maulings and the euthanasia of pit bulls. In late 2014, Animals 24-7, a group that tracks shelter killings, estimated that of the 1.3 million shelter dogs projected for euthanasia in 2014, pit bulls accounted for 56%.22 This is true despite the fact that pit bulls only make up about 6% of the total U.S. dog population.23
Over 700 U.S. cities and nearly all privatized military housing -- the U.S. Army, U.S. Marine Corps and U.S. Air Force -- and many public housing authorities have breed-specific restrictions. Such measures often include: mandatory sterilization, liability insurance and strict containment rules. The most progressive law, a pit bull ban, prohibits new pit bulls and new pit bull breeding. In just a few years, these communities see a significant drop in pit bull bites and euthanasia of pit bulls.

I absolutely agree with this.

[Stacyrect]

Hot Damn!

I have taken Biology and Chemistry. Does that make me a Bio-Chemist?

Not just a Bio-Chemist but a person capable providing irrefutable expert testimony


I've seen my fair share of 'pit bulls' and most of them are just beef heads. I've seen a pit raised in a household with a child and he was a very deep, friendly, intelligent and emotional animal. After that one passed, the next was literally the exact opposite. It was very aggressive and hyper territorial to the point where he had to be caged when company was over. First one never needed to be trained, second one went through a few trainers but ended with little success overall. Both were staffordshire terriers were from same breeder, and the later pit was a descendant of the nicer one. I imagine when it comes to personality dogs are not really all that different from animals, some of them are just born assholes.

Having been a contractor and deliveryman for 12+ years, I've been bitten by a chihuahua, shit-zu, wiremoner(SP) and a mini greyhound. Never been bitten by a pit.

[nanook12]

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...bull-myths.php

Myth #1: It's the owner not the breed

The outdated debate, "It's the owner, not the breed," has caused the pit bull problem to grow into a 30-year old problem.1 Designed to protect pit bull breeders and owners, the slogan ignores the genetic history of the breed and blames these horrific maulings -- inflicted by the pit bull's genetic "hold and shake" bite style -- on environmental factors. While environment plays a role in a pit bull's behavior, it is genetics that leaves pit bull victims with permanent and disfiguring injuries.
The pit bull's genetic traits are not in dispute. Many appellate courts agree that pit bulls pose a significant danger to society and can be regulated accordingly. Some of the genetic traits courts have identified include: unpredictability of aggression, tenacity ("gameness" the refusal to give up a fight), high pain tolerance and the pit bull's "hold and shake" bite style.2 According to forensic medical studies, similar injuries have only been found elsewhere on victims of shark attacks.3
Purveyors of this myth also cannot account for the many instances in which pit bull owners and their family members are victimized by their pet dogs. From 2005 to 2015, pit bulls killed 232 Americans, about one citizen every 17 days. Of these deaths, 51% involved a family member and a household pit bull.4 Notably, in the first 8 months of 2011, nearly half of those killed by a pit bull was its owner. One victim was an "avid supporter" of Bad Rap, a recipient of Michael Vick's dogs.5

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http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...bull-myths.php

Myth #2: It's impossible to identify a pit bull

Pit bull advocates frequently claim that the average person cannot correctly identify a pit bull. As discussed in the Pit Bull FAQ, the pit bull is a class of dogs made up of several close dog breeds (See: What is a pit bull?). This false claim is designed to confuse the public just like the breed's history of changing names is intended to do (See: Disguise breed name). As was recently told to us by a top U.S. animal control enforcement officer, "If it looks like a pit bull, it usually is."
Pit bull advocates have even created deceptive online tests (Find the Pit Bull) to further confuse the media, policymakers and the public. These tests are inaccurate and intentionally crafted to show that the average person cannot correctly identify a pit bull. DogsBite.org has created a more realistic test that shows a variety of popular dog breeds. Once one begins to understand the frame, posture and distinct head shape and jaw size of a pit bull, identification is immediate.

[Kathandira]

Pitbulls are bred with aggression towards other dogs in mind and no violence toward humans. They are put in a pit to fight other dogs. When the owners decide to stop the fight they need to enter the pit and grab the dogs. The dogs are breed to not bite humans even in a fight. They are very loyal. That doesn't mean that you can't make pit bulls attack humans but german shepherd and other breeds are better for that job.

If you are interested to know...it's not even as whimsical as that any more. Now it is dirty basements, and far worse...the trunk of a car. Throw two dogs in the trunk, and go for a drive. Once it quiets down, you stop and open the trunk. The one which lives, is the winner.

[nanook12]

Again the dog breed is violent plain and simple. Dog breeding laws against pittbulls should be enacted.

[Kathandira]

Again the dog breed is violent plain and simple. Dog breeding laws against pittbulls should be enacted.

Absolutely. Until the breed is corrected, there should be limits on ownership and who can breed them.

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After reading the first page, I'm just going to ignore the rest ('cos it's the usual nonsense) and simply say that it is down to upbringing, more than it is genetics, speaking from extensive personal experience.

The passed few pages have actually been pretty good. I'd say you should give it a read. It's no where near as horrible as you may expect. I've seen far worse in this discussion else where.

[ParanoiD84]

Again the dog breed is violent plain and simple. Dog breeding laws against pittbulls should be enacted.

Don't forget laws that stops stupid people from buying them.

[Thelin]

None, but I have taken a few classes on biology enough to understand natural selection and how traits are transferred.

if you haven't even owned the breed then shut the fuck up, since when did your opinion suddenly become factual? Any dog/animal that is abused and treated like dirt can become violent. I own a pitbull and yes hes strong but hes never once shown aggression. He will jump up on your wiggling his little butt around trying to like your face or sleep on your lap and that's about it.

[Kryos]

Again the dog breed is violent plain and simple. Dog breeding laws against pittbulls should be enacted.

The breed is not more violent than other breeds, but it's stronger than many other breeds. If you want to ban all dogs that have the potential to do major harm, you need to outlaw the breeding of all dogs bigger than a beagle.

Bullmastiff for example:


Or Leonberger:


In the wrong hands all these big dogs could kill humans. They are all breed for hunting big animals, so they do have aggression in their genes, just like you do, too.

[Gib Lover]

After reading the first page, I'm just going to ignore the rest ('cos it's the usual nonsense) and simply say that it is down to upbringing, more than it is genetics, speaking from extensive personal experience.

After some of the evidence presented in this thread, I don't know if I completely believe that anymore. The amount of people mauled to death by their own pitbulls that supposedly "would never hurt a fly" leads me to believe its either something wrong with the breed, or that these dogs are severely abused in a way that isn't obvious.

[Thelin]

http://www.dogsbite.org/dangerous-do...-faq.php#media

Q: Why do pit bull owners say, "My dog might lick you to death?"

To understand the experience of owning a negatively perceived dog, Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy did a study on pit bull owners. Researchers found that owners of out-law dog breeds directly feel the stigma targeted at their breed and resort to various tactics to lessen it. One of the tactics included attempts to counterbalance the pit bull's menacing appearance and physical power with overwhelming "affectionate" behavior, such as: "My dog might lick you to death."19

The dog breed is violent plain and simple. They have been breed to be that way. Stop denying facts and accept it.

except its not plain and simple so why are you making it out to be like it is? Go ahead and abuse the shit out of golden retriever or lab and see how they react to other people. Any dog can be made violent, its the fact that pitbulls are so strong and overbred that makes them the target. Let's go back to the 90's action movies, you know what dog was always shown as the vicious attack dog that all the bad guys had.. it wasn't pitbulls it was dobermans. There is a stigma that always gets associated with a breed for a period of time whether its true or not.

[Gorgodeus]

Yes, I have. The dogs are generally more aggressive than other dog breeds even when not abused or mistreated.

Do you know what breed of dog is most likely to attack a child? Cocker Spaniel
Do you know what breed of dog is most likely to attack anyone? Poodle

Pit Bulls are less likely to attack than the two above breeds. Their jaw strength is what makes them dangerous. Not their temperament.

I have both owned and bred pits. How they are raised and trained determines their behavior more than anything else.

[DistortionSleep]

Yes pits are more aggressive. Just look at how many kill children, and elderly people each year. It's genetics. The same people claiming it isn't genetics, I got a question for you. Would you feel safe around a full size grizzly bear even though you raised it since birth? I doubt it, because you know it would maul your face off.

[Celista]

Not just a Bio-Chemist but a person capable providing irrefutable expert testimony


I've seen my fair share of 'pit bulls' and most of them are just beef heads. I've seen a pit raised in a household with a child and he was a very deep, friendly, intelligent and emotional animal. After that one passed, the next was literally the exact opposite. It was very aggressive and hyper territorial to the point where he had to be caged when company was over. First one never needed to be trained, second one went through a few trainers but ended with little success overall. Both were staffordshire terriers were from same breeder, and the later pit was a descendant of the nicer one. I imagine when it comes to personality dogs are not really all that different from animals, some of them are just born assholes.

Having been a contractor and deliveryman for 12+ years, I've been bitten by a chihuahua, shit-zu, wiremoner(SP) and a mini greyhound. Never been bitten by a pit.

I think there's a couple of things regarding the genetics vs. environment argument:

1. Genetic predisposition is no guarantee of expression, genes are complex and it is wholly possible, as you said, to have a very sweet, calm, loving dog be in the same litter/genetic tree as one that displays inherently aggressive tendencies.
2. It is folly to deny that genetics has a role in behavior (for any species), although there is a lot of room for argument as to what % of a given animal's behavior is due to genetics and what % is due to environment. It is not an easy argument to resolve as environmental cues influence gene expression.

I think part of the reason why people argue against genetics so vigorously is because they want to believe that training can give 100% control over an animal, and that by introducing genetics into the conversation they perceive that it takes the onus of responsibility away from the owner in regards to an animal's behavior. I think we can state that genetics are a factor while also stating that owners have a responsibility to treat their animals well and train them properly.

I have a friend who is a vet who had the same experience with her staffordshire terrier, she's had to hire several animal behaviorists and she still has to put the dog up when company comes over. She's a very sweet woman who I've known since middle school and has owned a lot of pets (the rest of whom did not have behavior problems), and I am well aware of her love of animals, so while it is possible that her dog's behavior is due to poor ownership/training I very highly doubt it. Especially when accounting for the amount of time and money she has put into training.

[Thelin]

Yes pits are more aggressive. Just look at how many kill children, and elderly people each year. It's genetics. The same people claiming it isn't genetics, I got a question for you. Would you feel safe around a full size grizzly bear even though you raised it since birth? I doubt it, because you know it would maul your face off.

except there are people that do..just that. The fact that you're equating a pit bull which is a domesticated animal to a grizzly bear which is not even remotely considered domesticated is laughable.