A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Ielenia]

Heh, not even close.

Let's prove you wrong, shall we? Xavius. Ability: Darkening Soul. Dispelling that ability causes big AE damage, forcing the tanks to have to run away from the raid because the blast can really damage the melee, giving extra work to the healers. It becomes trivial when the tank is already standing far away.

Then simply give the player ranged tank a defensive CD that only affects the barrier.

I'm sitting here, trying to figure out the mental gymnastics you have to go through to rationalize your 'gimmicky melee tank' is not a melee tank, because it doesn't matter where the tank is, he is still taking melee damage from the boss. Seriously, what is the difference between your "gimmicky melee tank" and a warrior, for example?

Nah, the barrier would have the armor, dodge, and parry stats of the tanking character. So it would take damage, parry, and dodge just like a tank character would.

... A barrier... dodging. And parrying. Nevermind that you need a weapon to actually parry at attack. If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport, you'd get gold medals easily.

Like I said, the barrier wouldn't dissipate, it would transfer to the ranged tank, transferring the aggro as well. When it's time to place the barrier down, the aggro is transferred back to wherever the tank decides to place the barrier.

You do know it doesn't matter if the tooltip says "recalls the barrier to the tech class". The mechanic would actually be the barrier despawning and respawning, which resets aggro. Just like a hunter pet, if dismissed and called back during a fight would have its aggro reset.

[Teriz]

Let's prove you wrong, shall we? Xavius. Ability: Darkening Soul. Dispelling that ability causes big AE damage, forcing the tanks to have to run away from the raid because the blast can really damage the melee, giving extra work to the healers. It becomes trivial when the tank is already standing far away.

The barrier would be the (primary) target, and it wouldn't be far away.

I'm sitting here, trying to figure out the mental gymnastics you have to go through to rationalize your 'gimmicky melee tank' is not a melee tank, because it doesn't matter where the tank is, he is still taking melee damage from the boss. Seriously, what is the difference between your "gimmicky melee tank" and a warrior, for example?

So when Hunters take melee damage they're no longer a ranged DPS class?

... A barrier... dodging. And parrying. Nevermind that you need a weapon to actually parry at attack. If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport, you'd get gold medals easily.

This is video game.

You do know it doesn't matter if the tooltip says "recalls the barrier to the tech class". The mechanic would actually be the barrier despawning and respawning, which resets aggro. Just like a hunter pet, if dismissed and called back during a fight would have its aggro reset.

Actually it's more akin to a character teleporting from one point to another. The barrier never dissipates unless it is broken or expires.

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Ranged tanking is an arbitrary answer to a (very stupid) loaded question. It doesn't have much more merit than that. Tinker is a melee unit in Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm!

To be fair, while it is a melee unit in HotS, its main strength are its ranged attacks (until Robo-Goblin).

[Ielenia]

The barrier would be the (primary) target, and it wouldn't be far away.

So, instead of just the tank having to move away, the entire raid has to move away, since the barrier, of course, is stationary? I can see this class being avoided for a lot of fights...

So when Hunters take melee damage they're no longer a ranged DPS class?

More mental gymnastics. If a certain spec is ranged, that means said spec is not supposed to be taking melee damage. Look at your example: Hunters have slow traps. Slowing shots. Disorienting shots. Disengages. They have a sizeable kit to keep themselves away from melee range. Unless you're playing a survival hunter, then you're supposed to be in melee..

This is video game.

You can't just create ludicrous, illogical ideas and excuse them by saying "it's a video game."

Actually it's more akin to a character teleporting from one point to another. The barrier never dissipates unless it is broken or expires.

Except a summoned unit is not a player character. Every single that summons a unit works that way: totems, statues, banners, everything. Just looks at how NPCs behave! If they have to move somewhere, once reaching their destination, they actually despawn and respawn in the same position.

[Thimagryn]

To be fair, while it is a melee unit in HotS, its main strength are its ranged attacks (until Robo-Goblin).

I think it's a good basis for whatever roles the WoW class may have though. It shows that a Tinker isn't some pure ranged character who, given the option, would tank at ranged. He's melee from the start, and furthermore has a mode that makes him tankier and more impressive in melee. Of course this doesn't mean he can't use ranged attacks or guns, but I think it's a pretty clear identity.

Otherwise it wouldn't have bothered with the giant backpack claws and shredder-style battle suit when it could be purely outfitted with guns and lasers like DOTA's version of Tinker.

[Teriz]

So, instead of just the tank having to move away, the entire raid has to move away, since the barrier, of course, is stationary? I can see this class being avoided for a lot of fights...

Why would the entire raid need to move away?

More mental gymnastics. If a certain spec is ranged, that means said spec is not supposed to be taking melee damage. Look at your example: Hunters have slow traps. Slowing shots. Disorienting shots. Disengages. They have a sizeable kit to keep themselves away from melee range. Unless you're playing a survival hunter, then you're supposed to be in melee..

Yet Hunters DO take melee damage. So again, when a Hunter takes melee damage, does it suddenly stop being a ranged DPS class?

You can't just create ludicrous, illogical ideas and excuse them by saying "it's a video game."

I'm not seeing how an energy barrier with tanking stats is any less logical than anything else in the game.

Except a summoned unit is not a player character. Every single that summons a unit works that way: totems, statues, banners, everything. Just looks at how NPCs behave! If they have to move somewhere, once reaching their destination, they actually despawn and respawn in the same position.

So you're arguing that it's impossible for Blizzad to employ a mechanic that transfers aggro from the barrier to the player character and vice versa?

[Ielenia]

Why would the entire raid need to move away?

Because the stationary barrier is affected by a debuff that will explode and deal a lot of damage to anyone nearby.

I'm not seeing how an energy barrier with tanking stats is any less logical than anything else in the game.

I am not surprised you can't see the faulty logic in your ideas, to be honest. But anyways. Starting with the question of why would a boss beat on a barrier that is protecting no one in particular (since, according to you, the tank is moving around). Then, somehow, something that is stationary and has no weapons can, somehow, dodge and parry attacks?

So you're arguing that it's impossible for Blizzad to employ a mechanic that transfers aggro from the barrier to the player character and vice versa?

No, I'm just saying that your prized 'barrier' mechanic requires a lot of re-working of in-game mechanics to basically do the exact same thing a melee tank does with already existing mechanics. You're overcomplicating things that can already be done. You're not asking for a simple mechanic like stagger, or critical block. You're asking Blizzard to change how summoned pets work in their entirety, just for the sake of one single spec. Your "barrier" mechanic completely nullifies the idea of a ranged tank, since everything that would affect a tank in regards to melee damage also affects the """"ranged"""" tank, and the idea of a ranged tank is, well, not being in melee. Not being hit by melee attacks.

[Teriz]

I think it's a good basis for whatever roles the WoW class may have though. It shows that a Tinker isn't some pure ranged character who, given the option, would tank at ranged. He's melee from the start, and furthermore has a mode that makes him tankier and more impressive in melee. Of course this doesn't mean he can't use ranged attacks or guns, but I think it's a pretty clear identity.

Otherwise it wouldn't have bothered with the giant backpack claws and shredder-style battle suit when it could be purely outfitted with guns and lasers like DOTA's version of Tinker.

I agree with you. I just don't think ranged tanking is as impossible as everyone makes it out to be.

However, I do personally believe that a mech-based Tinker class is most likely. It would interesting to see how they incorporate ranged abilities into that class.

[Jtree]

I agree with you. I just don't think ranged tanking is as impossible as everyone makes it out to be.

Serious question: Have you ever played a tank in current raid content in any expansion?

A "ranged tank" that is little more than a hunter with an OP misdirect to a monk Ox statue would be either game-breaking OP, uselessly awkward, or hopelessly fragile.

[Teriz]

Serious question: Have you ever played a tank in current raid content in any expansion?

A "ranged tank" that is little more than a hunter with an OP misdirect to a monk Ox statue would be either game-breaking OP, uselessly awkward, or hopelessly fragile.

I think the idea of a ranged tank is best left to a different discussion. Maybe I'll make a new thread about it? A better question for this thread is how would Blizzard implement a mech-based class whose roots in WC3 and HotS are melee with a large amount of ranged abilities. In fact, I think all of the Tinker's abilities in those two games are ranged.

However, in WC3, the Tinker has high amounts of armor, and can fight on the front lines with the help of pocket factory and robo-goblin. In HotS, the Tinker is more in the backfield, avoiding direct combat but racking up experience and forcing the other team to deal with its siege threats. However, late game the Tinker can become a very effective melee fighter.

I think @Thimagryn is correct; that's the well Blizzard is going to pull from if they implement a Tinker class. So how would those abilities and attributes translate into specs?

[Traveler Voltin]

Ranged tanking is a no.
Think of something else.

[Rhamses]

Ranged tanking is a no.
Think of something else.

Well since shaman lost Searing totem, I could imagine some sort of turret style gameplay emerging. Maybe even have a few of the power ups in HotS like movement decrease and multi-shot.

[Thimagryn]

Turret gameplay is the biggest reason why I think a Tinker would be fun and unique. It's a gameplay mechanic that already exists in numerous MMO's/ARPGs that would be a welcome addition to the roster.

Heck it's even a prominent role in team-based shooters like Team Fortress and Overwatch, which already share a lot of classes/roles similar to conventional MMORPGs. You have the tank characters, the healers, the stealth DPS, the bursty ranged DPS, the AOE/Crowd Control DPS, etc. Turrets would add a lot to PVP, especially defense/capture the flag style maps.

[Selastan]

I would love a turret class! Considering how hands-off I like my gameplay, a turret or two would be fun as hell to play.

[Rhamses]

Turret gameplay is the biggest reason why I think a Tinker would be fun and unique. It's a gameplay mechanic that already exists in numerous MMO's/ARPGs that would be a welcome addition to the roster.

Heck it's even a prominent role in team-based shooters like Team Fortress and Overwatch, which already share a lot of classes/roles similar to conventional MMORPGs. You have the tank characters, the healers, the stealth DPS, the bursty ranged DPS, the AOE/Crowd Control DPS, etc. Turrets would add a lot to PVP, especially defense/capture the flag style maps.

A turret style of gameplay would have to be pretty innovative. A lot of Shaman grew to hate Searing Totem towards the end.

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I would love a turret class! Considering how hands-off I like my gameplay, a turret or two would be fun as hell to play.

You'd probably need to drop at least 3 turrets at once for it to be interesting.

It would be pretty cool if you could upgrade the turrets like that character in Overwatch.

[Soulfighter101]

Since WoD, they seem to be in the trend of really listening to the playerbase on what they want. Artifacts (we want Ashbringer!), Demon Hunters, seperate PvP balance, reduced reliance on daily quests, all examples of things they've been hearing about for ages. I mean, fuck, we're going to ARGUS. How many lore nerds aren't in awe that we're visiting this place that's been name-dropped since the first expac?

Point being, the after DH the engineer/tinker was the most popular player class concept. They've implemented classes that were less popular, and there are perfectly logical ways to get them. The army of light is faltering, and both factions will have to work together to fight the legion; meaning that it would be perfectly logical for refinement of gnomish engineering and the raw power of goblin tinkering to combine into something far stronger, giving way to the birth of the Tink-master or whatever.

[Selastan]

It would be pretty cool if you could upgrade the turrets like that character in Overwatch.

Or play it like the Engineer from TF2. Dispensers and teleporters to build on top of an upgradable turret. Don't know how that would translate into WoW, teleporters would work, but it would make the lock ability useless...

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Or better yet, have them basically play the game like an RTS. They have to set up their little 'base' area on longer fights, assembling big machines that roll out smaller machines automatically and continuously upgrading them and switching out what is produced depending on the current phase.

[Thimagryn]

A turret style of gameplay would have to be pretty innovative. A lot of Shaman grew to hate Searing Totem towards the end.

That's because there wasn't any gameplay around it and it became a detriment to the Elemental DPS style.

Turret-centric gameplay would be more nuanced if they focused on it, much like how they changed Demonology to focus more on the use of pets.

I'd imagine the ability plopping down one turret at a time, up to a possible maximum of 3 (could be increased with talent/tier set/artifact boosts). The base turret has a limit of shots before it expires (no time duration), has HP like a totem/temporary pet, has a basic range and attack speed, and auto targets anything within range.

Then you'd have abilities that support turret maintenance. Something like:
- Rapid Deployment - sets up all turrets at once; an opener like Shaman plopping all totems. Long Cooldown ability.
- Reload - ability that refreshes Turret ammo, basically 'refresh your DoTs' type ability. Rotation maintenance
- Scavenge - destroyed turrets leave Scrap, a consumable drop that gives back resource and lowers Turret and Rapid Deployment cooldown
- Manual Target/Focus Fire ability (Hunters Mark style) that focuses all turrets on a target while debuffing them
- Cluster Rockets - Tinker launches rockets from himself. Extra rockets also launch from each Turret close to the Tinker
- Ammo Kits - Loads a selected turret with special ammo, like Smoke Bombs, Incendiary Grenades or Armor Penetrating Rounds. Limited shots, but can be refreshed by Reload

Having active abilities that affect turrets would make the gameplay much more interesting than just a totem that auto-attacks. Think of them more as stationary pets like a ranged Hunter pet or the Imp. They auto attack and draw their own aggro, so fighting tougher mobs for a Turret-centric spec might involve redeploying turrets as they get destroyed right in the middle of a fight and having them tank damage for you. Maybe different bonuses given for positioning them a certain distance closer or away from each other, like Turrets that shoot from behind it get a 'backstab' bonus while turrets close to each other activate a shield.

[Jtree]

I think the idea of a ranged tank is best left to a different discussion. Maybe I'll make a new thread about it? A better question for this thread is how would Blizzard implement a mech-based class whose roots in WC3 and HotS are melee with a large amount of ranged abilities. In fact, I think all of the Tinker's abilities in those two games are ranged.

Fair enough.

Regarding specs, a two-spec class makes the most sense to me: Tanking and Ranged DPS.

Tanking because of course a giant metal war machine should lead the force and take a beating. That is literally why tanks were invented in WWI.

Ranged DPS because guns and rockets and lasers oh my!

addendum:

Melee DPS mechs are obviously supported in WoW lore, but I want to rule it out as there are currently more melee specs in game, and melee players don't need another big figure crowding boss ass in raids.

Healing is a "no reason not to", but also "no reason to do so". If it really is a mech-driving class, might as well focus on the key elements of doing and taking damage.

[Rekz]

No one wants a tinker class...like stop with this crap. We have engineers already we don't need another un-inspiring class.

[Thimagryn]

No one wants a tinker class...like stop with this crap. We have engineers already we don't need another un-inspiring class.

Funny, that's what a lot of people said about the Demon Hunter class too.