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  1. #181
    Bloodsail Admiral Tenris's Avatar
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    Currently playing jade rogue and brushed off my evolve shaman and my reno-cthun lock and quite enjoying it atm. So many good evolve cards in this expac, doppleganger and the new 5 mana card with the deal 5 dmg to your hero, a mage left it alive a turn so i instantly evolved it and cried laughing when he got it out of his firelands portal.

  2. #182
    Brewmaster Deztru's Avatar
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    God I hate the new dragon priest, feels so.... intrusive.. that they just shuffle around in your deck and copy what they need.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Deztru View Post
    God I hate the new dragon priest, feels so.... intrusive.. that they just shuffle around in your deck and copy what they need.
    I like it, its fun and pretty solid. It relies heavily on curving out though and doesn't really have a late game win condition besides just controlling the board. It gets stomped in the late game by Jade decks.

  4. #184
    Brewmaster Deztru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FobManX View Post
    I like it, its fun and pretty solid. It relies heavily on curving out though and doesn't really have a late game win condition besides just controlling the board. It gets stomped in the late game by Jade decks.
    Playing paladin it's fun to have exactly this late-game destroyed with Equality+Consecration/Pyromancer by a priest

  5. #185
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    Grinding ranks is almost impossible unless you buy a load of packs in this expansion, pay-to-win. Can't get anywhere. All the old decks are completely dominated.

  6. #186
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Grinding ranks is almost impossible unless you buy a load of packs in this expansion, pay-to-win. Can't get anywhere. All the old decks are completely dominated.
    Oooooh did somebody forget to save gold for an upcoming expansion yet again, and is now blaming other things? Tsk tsk.

    You had time enough to save a couple thousand gold from the expac announcement. No-ones fault but your own if you didn't.
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  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    Oooooh did somebody forget to save gold for an upcoming expansion yet again, and is now blaming other things? Tsk tsk.

    You had time enough to save a couple thousand gold from the expac announcement. No-ones fault but your own if you didn't.
    I was speaking objectively, anyone with not much gold or new to the game needs a fatter wallet than ever.

    I personally have plenty of gold but this time decide to grind arena for extra value, I don't claim to be pro but it's more value nevertheless. At the same time grinding ranks on the side for the end of month chest but getting whitewashed by Pirate Warriors and Dragon Priests.

  8. #188
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    I was speaking objectively, anyone with not much gold or new to the game needs a fatter wallet than ever.

    I personally have plenty of gold but this time decide to grind arena for extra value, I don't claim to be pro but it's more value nevertheless. At the same time grinding ranks on the side for the end of month chest but getting whitewashed by Pirate Warriors and Dragon Priests.
    So you've reached the complaining level where you're complaining about stuff that isn't actually a problem for you but WHO KNOWS, IT COULD BE AN ISSUE FOR SOMEONE OUT THERE. MAYBE.

    Good lord, man.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Grinding ranks is almost impossible unless you buy a load of packs in this expansion, pay-to-win. Can't get anywhere. All the old decks are completely dominated.
    Dragon priest is actually surprisingly cheap for me. I got one Dragonfire potion and a few new cards needed from the 6 free pack and some arena runs. Only crafted another Dragonfire potion, two Drakonid Operative and the deck is complete a total of 600 dust.

    Dragon priest is pretty fun too so that is a bonus.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Grinding ranks is almost impossible unless you buy a load of packs in this expansion, pay-to-win. Can't get anywhere. All the old decks are completely dominated.
    I always see people say things like this, but fail to mention that aggro, while not preferred by many, is never expensive and it always a viable way to grind ranks. HS isn't pay to win [which is actually just pay to grind faster] if you play aggro. The struggling comes when you try to play anything other than aggro with short budget decks, but aggro is always available for new or returning players to do well with.

  11. #191
    The Lightbringer Twoddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    So you've reached the complaining level where you're complaining about stuff that isn't actually a problem for you but WHO KNOWS, IT COULD BE AN ISSUE FOR SOMEONE OUT THERE. MAYBE.
    Yes I was pointing that out there's nothing wrong with being unselfish, besides it is kind of an issue with me as well because it means I can't get far in constructive ranks until I've earned enough packs from arena to build a decent deck around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychohamster View Post
    Dragon priest is actually surprisingly cheap for me. I got one Dragonfire potion and a few new cards needed from the 6 free pack and some arena runs. Only crafted another Dragonfire potion, two Drakonid Operative and the deck is complete a total of 600 dust.

    Dragon priest is pretty fun too so that is a bonus.
    Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of crafting cards to complete a deck until I've finished grinding arena for 150 packs or so. The last thing I want is to craft expensive cards and then find them in packs later.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychohamster View Post
    Dragon priest is actually surprisingly cheap for me. I got one Dragonfire potion and a few new cards needed from the 6 free pack and some arena runs. Only crafted another Dragonfire potion, two Drakonid Operative and the deck is complete a total of 600 dust.

    Dragon priest is pretty fun too so that is a bonus.
    Pretty much. There's not many new cards required for it, which is nice.

    Blackrock is next to cycle though (if I remember right), which will hit it pretty hard.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    I always see people say things like this, but fail to mention that aggro, while not preferred by many, is never expensive and it always a viable way to grind ranks. HS isn't pay to win [which is actually just pay to grind faster] if you play aggro.
    Still gonna take me a couple of weeks or I could pay-to-win now.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Grinding ranks is almost impossible unless you buy a load of packs in this expansion, pay-to-win. Can't get anywhere. All the old decks are completely dominated.
    This just clearly isn't true. Midrange Shaman is still good. Dragon Priest got rares and epics, not expensive crafts. Even decks that really need new cards - like singleton decks that really want Kazakus and the new class singleton legendaries now - don't require you to buy a load of new packs.

    You can still compete with good old decks, and new decks don't require mass purchases.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    HS isn't pay to win [which is actually just pay to grind faster
    I had this argument with a certain person who was stuck in the mindset "it's not pay to win because I can eventually get all the cards I need." I guess in that way everyone on earth is a potential millionaire, and they just need a little time.

    HS is pay to win in like 99% of people's cases. You buy packs that you couldn't afford if you didn't put $money$ into the game. Those packs contain cards. With different cards you can experiment with different decks and find decks that are optimal for winning against other players.

    The argument "You can buy those cards with gold/dust" doesn't hold up in most cases because by the time you actually get all of the current expansion, a new one will come out and you have to get those cards and your decks are outdated.

    The only reason I said 99 and not 100% is because in some magic land, you can play arena and quest everyday to get enough gold to collect all cards. But that's like the 1% lotto winner to get to millionaire: not worth talking about.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    I had this argument with a certain person who was stuck in the mindset "it's not pay to win because I can eventually get all the cards I need." I guess in that way everyone on earth is a potential millionaire, and they just need a little time.

    HS is pay to win in like 99% of people's cases. You buy packs that you couldn't afford if you didn't put $money$ into the game. Those packs contain cards. With different cards you can experiment with different decks and find decks that are optimal for winning against other players.

    The argument "You can buy those cards with gold/dust" doesn't hold up in most cases because by the time you actually get all of the current expansion, a new one will come out and you have to get those cards and your decks are outdated.

    The only reason I said 99 and not 100% is because in some magic land, you can play arena and quest everyday to get enough gold to collect all cards. But that's like the 1% lotto winner to get to millionaire: not worth talking about.
    You're making a few assumptions though. First, that most HS players are not casual players. They are, thus they are not actively trying to make competitive decks for every class. This means that players in fact do not need to get all of the cards from the current expansion (only for 1-3 or 4 classes going by the average player). As a result, players do not need to grind for as many packs to get what they need for deck building. The game isn't pay to win when you only need enough cards for a few of the classes before a new expansion hits.

    Second, for those limited amount of cards that players actually need to build decent decks you are assuming that players most likely can't pull the cards from their packs unless they spend real money on them. Most decks don't need to be lucky enough to pull many legendaries for their class to be competitive in the meta (most decks aren't golden wallet warrior level of deck price). You're also making the assumption that because players need packs for their cards that they are for some reason unable to get gold for packs & if they do buy them with gold they will be behind when the expansion comes out. I don't really buy this considering it is very possible to get many packs just with gold.

    Ever since the format shift what I have done as a f2p player is take the first of every 200 gold to save for packs and/or adventure that has yet to be released, and then save every third handful of 100g to be used on packs for the current expansion. So, for every 3k gold I've earned I will have saved 2k gold for the next expansion/adventure & 1k for packs. Right after I immediately purchased Karazhan (well as immediately as I could with gold, but I had it all from the start) I had saved for 58 packs for MSoG + the free 6 packs. All from doing the method listed above. So I highly doubt your claim that a free to play player couldn't get enough packs for the few decks they care about using without having to spend any money.

    So no, HS is not pay to win by the standards of "Can I make competitive decks to play the game or even play ranked?"

    EDIT:

    When looking at pay to win you also have to consider by what goals are you looking at to determine if a game requires money to "win". What is "winning" in this game? is it hitting legend once? Is it hitting legend each month with at least one deck? Is it hitting rank 15/10/5? Is it doing well in arena? Is it having a complete collection? Is it just being able to have 'competitive' & functioning decks for each class in non ranked to finish any quest? You see how you can't flat out say the game is pay to win when using the label as a blanket statement across all aspects of the game. Real money/dust/gold does not affect every aspect of the game in the same ways depending on how we are looking at the game.

    In the sense of doing well in ranked you do not need to spend real money to do well *COUGHAGGRODECKSCOUGH*
    Last edited by Pantalaimon; 2016-12-08 at 04:18 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    [Omg snipping first three paragraphs]

    [Stuff about players not being casual so only needing a few decks and not as many cards]
    Here's the problem. Most players can only make 1-4 "competitive" decks as you say. How do they choose?

    Partially, like 60% of the reasoning, it comes from theorycrafting when seeing the cards, helped by the fact that Blizzard holds your hand and guides you into what decks should be good. "Hey you see these priest cards we're releasing? Lot of Dragons involved. Maybe you should build your deck around that synergy *hint hint*. But if you DON'T wanna play Dragon Priest, we have this other card that has abilities way similar to Reno Jackson. *hint hint wink nudge take the hint retards*"

    But even with Blizzard's guidance, a lot of stuff needs testing. How good is this buff your hand Paladin? What are the best cards for a deck like that? Which of those Jade decks performs best?

    There are a lot of cards and decks to try out to see which is really best. And the only way most people know which is best is by watching streamers/youtubers who can demonstrate how good the decks are. Streamers/youtubers who actually pay to do the testing.

    So yes, you don't have to pay to build a good deck if someone tells you what the decklist is. But even then, it's not as fun copying a decklist when you could try building your own. But you can't build it yourself unless you make the commitment to craft the cards.

    Even ignoring all that, it's just not fun to see decks and know you won't be able to create them yourself. That's the most heartbreaking part, seeing a cool deck and being like "wow what a cool Jade Shaman. It's a shame I put all my eggs in the pirate warrior/dragon priest baskets."

    So to summarize the point, yes, you can build a 51% win rate deck with random cards or decklists you see someone else use, but it's not as fun and even doing so cripples your ability to try other decks or experiment to improve your current deck. Unless you pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    So no, HS is not pay to win by the standards of "Can I make competitive decks to play the game or even play ranked?"
    Technically you can play the game with basic cards. Doesn't make it fun or optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    EDIT:

    When looking at pay to win you also have to consider by what goals are you looking at to determine if a game requires money to "win". What is "winning" in this game? is it hitting legend once? Is it hitting legend each month with at least one deck? Is it hitting rank 15/10/5? Is it doing well in arena? Is it having a complete collection? Is it just being able to have 'competitive' & functioning decks for each class in non ranked to finish any quest? You see how you can't flat out say the game is pay to win when using the label as a blanket statement across all aspects of the game. Real money/dust/gold does not affect every aspect of the game in the same ways depending on how we are looking at the game.

    In the sense of doing well in ranked you do not need to spend real money to do well *COUGHAGGRODECKSCOUGH*
    To me, "win" means if we queue into Play Mode with a deck, how successful are we at winning matches? AKA what's our win percentage.

    In this sense, Hearthstone is indeed pay to win because the more cards you have, the more you can experiment and tweak and try different decks until you do maximize win percentage. Undeniably, more cards gives more options.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Listen, I'm not saying you have to pay money to play the game or hit legend. But paying gets you a hell of a lot of access you don't otherwise have and really increases your fun. Saying otherwise is just lying to yourself.

  18. #198
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Pretty much. There's not many new cards required for it, which is nice.

    Blackrock is next to cycle though (if I remember right), which will hit it pretty hard.

    Yeah it will be bad for the dragon decks in general. I am sure thought they will release an adventure or something with dragons to fill the void.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Still gonna take me a couple of weeks or I could pay-to-win now.
    Make a Pirate Warrior, craft 2 rare quality Flame Pirates and maybe Patches. Get legend.

    MSoG had some incredible potential, lots of the new additions are really fun, we could have had a midrange/control meta if only they hadn't printed Flame Pirate and Patches.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Listen, I'm not saying you have to pay money to play the game or hit legend. But paying gets you a hell of a lot of access you don't otherwise have and really increases your fun. Saying otherwise is just lying to yourself.
    I agree with much of what you had to say, but in the end money providing you to more access or more opportunities for fun is still not pay to win.

    As far as the win percentage thing goes that you mentioned you still wouldn't need to spend a single real dime on cards to make a decent enough midrange shaman, or even zoolock, and just wreck faces, thus ending up with a high win percentage.

    I cant help, but feel the vast majority of HS pay to win argument are simply started because someone looks at a few control decks and goes; "Wow, I want to play that deck! Oh wait, I can't because it has too many epics/legendaries from different sets? Game must be pay to win because I won't be getting those packs with a free to play account." Control decks aren't everything. Sure, if you only looked at the game from the perspective of that archtype then yeah it would look almost like it was pay to win. Luckily, some of the best decks (such as aggro or midrange shaman) don't require much gold or cards.

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