7.1.5: Fire completely wrecked

[Deleted]

Too bad nobody can ever define what clunky means or we could even have a reasonable and sensible conversation about it. Proccing Hot Streak less often than on live doesn't constitute clunky.

This all day long, word means nothing and gets overused so much.

[Brenno]

Sorry number 4 of 26 through the entire raid, and its by a fair margin over number 5 if you look at all specs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=80

If you look at 880+ they move up 2 spots to essentially a tie at number 2 with a fair margin over the next spec at 4 and a larger margin over 5.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=80&bracket=18

And neither of those 2 rankings have anything to do with singletarget. Unless you are trying to argue there is no aoe/cleave in emerald nightmare. But that would just be flat out wrong.

[netherflame]

This all day long, word means nothing and gets overused so much.

I'd like to also add 'unplayable' to this list, a 5% nerf doesn't make a spec 'unplayable' it just makes it weaker.

[Rickdiculous]

Sorry number 4 of 26 through the entire raid, and its by a fair margin over number 5 if you look at all specs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=80

If you look at 880+ they move up 2 spots to essentially a tie at number 2 with a fair margin over the next spec at 4 and a larger margin over 5.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=80&bracket=18

You realize that data is skewed by illy and xavius ignite cleaving right? Look at a pure single target like guarm and see how far down it is.

[Deleted]

Sorry number 4 of 26 through the entire raid, and its by a fair margin over number 5 if you look at all specs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=80

If you look at 880+ they move up 2 spots to essentially a tie at number 2 with a fair margin over the next spec at 4 and a larger margin over 5.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=80&bracket=18

If you want to talk about ST, you have to switch to damage done to bosses and stop pretending .

EN (which is on farm mode therefore burst specs have an edge)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

ToV
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Just stop embarassing yourself.

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I'd like to also add 'unplayable' to this list, a 5% nerf doesn't make a spec 'unplayable' it just makes it weaker.

It's around a 11-13% to the prime spells for the spec.

When we are talking about fishing pyros, it's about fireball+pyro. Right now, if you have a 60% base crit chance (translated as 66% for pyro/fireball) you are on:

0 hot streak 12.22
1 hot streak 44.22
2 hot streak (free pyro) 43.56

So aprox 7/8 times you do this, you will be able to set a pyro. This is why most people "feel" intuitively that 60% is the magic number for the spec to start being consistent, because it is when the spec stops forcing you to cast too many fireballs, and too much waiting for fireblasts cooldown. To put it simply, the weight between the 3 options, option A is almost neligible, while options B and C are around equals.

Now with a base 50% crit chance

0 hot streak 25
1 hot streak 50
2 hot streak (free pyro) 25

Oppossed to 3/4, and a 1/4.

That's why they lowered the cooldown from fireblast, because they know the spec is loosing control so they need to make up for it, but you will need to cast more fireballs than before no matter what because those double crits are way harder to come by and the lowered cooldown for fireblast don't make up for it yet (you would need it to be cooldown 5 seconds, not 6, and the current change also affects firemage burst AoE since you can't fireblast + phoenix to its fullest).

And this comes also to the point where people seem to forget that when you use pyro, you can move because of the global cooldown, that's why the spec felt more mobile because you don't need it.

And this affects pyretics heavily, because consecutive crits are way harder to come by, making it harder to juggle the RoP at the right times withouth wasting it.

[netherflame]

You realize that data is skewed by illy and xavius ignite cleaving right? Look at a pure single target like guarm and see how far down it is.

Do the adds need to die in illy? yes or no? Do the adds need to die in xav? yes or no?

If anything Guarm and Ursoc are outlier because there is no cleave at all, the rest of the fights have some sort of cleave happening.

If you want to talk about ST, you have to switch to damage done to bosses and stop pretending .

EN (which is on farm mode therefore burst specs have an edge)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

ToV
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

Just stop embarassing yourself.

So lets go over a few things, nowhere did I say 'I'm only talking about single target.'

Fire mages were really good throughout all of EN and lets be honest with each other here, according to wow progress just under 6% of guilds have killed M-xav, so I wouldn't exactly call it "farm." ToV has fights that have less add phases, so single target specs should be better. Fire can be good during times where cleave is needed, it doesn't also need to be amazing when there is less cleave and more single target.

The real problem is with classes that are good where there is single target AND good where there is aoe cleave, if blizzard really is committed to specs having a niche then you have no leg to stand on. Fire is good at aoe so it should be very average at single target, while arcane should be good at single target and average at aoe.

If they don't want niches then you actually have a leg to stand on.

[Deleted]

Yes you did, when you quoted yourself

Nobody got any real number tuning, keep your handkerchief in your pocket because you really shouldn't have any tears to wipe up yet. The reality is fire is really good at AOE, it shouldn't be a top single target spec. I say the same thing about my elemental shaman, its a phenomenal aoe spec so it should have some shortcomings with single target.

Which i answered with a "it never was".

And then you posted logs pretending it is. Now you get faced with facts, and attempt to backpedal or mental gymnastics.

Sorry number 4 of 26 through the entire raid, and its by a fair margin over number 5 if you look at all specs.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=80

If you look at 880+ they move up 2 spots to essentially a tie at number 2 with a fair margin over the next spec at 4 and a larger margin over 5.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=80&bracket=18

Man, you can perfectly say it "ok i was wrong". Noone will give you the looks, embarass you, but the oppossite.

And about niches, i don't have any problem with it to be honest, i actually prefer if specs had those niches, but right now there are logistical barriers which are too high to function properly.

[deadman1]

Umm. You can always find the time to hardcast one spell. All other ranged classes and healers do it all the time. And dealing almost 4 times more damage with a chance to crit is already good enough for Pyroblast.

Most classes don't have a 4 second cast that is only available during a 20 second window.

Too bad nobody can ever define what clunky means or we could even have a reasonable and sensible conversation about it. Proccing Hot Streak less often than on live doesn't constitute clunky.

You don't need to definie it, you just need something to compare it to. If you compare PTR to Live it is clunkier, overall compared to other classes it doesn't seem clunky, you're right you can't really define it in comparison to nothing.

As for hot streak, it does also effect the efficacy of the legendary bracers, less procs directly reduces the chances to proc the legendary.

[Zenny]

Fire is good at aoe so it should be very average at single target

Which it is? So your point is...?

[netherflame]

Which it is? So your point is...?

If you look at the forums, the fact they are good at aoe and will be average at single target in 7.1.5 you'd think they are nerfing aoe and single target and making both of them bad.

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Yes you did, when you quoted yourself



Which i answered with a "it never was".

And then you posted logs pretending it is. Now you get faced with facts, and attempt to backpedal or mental gymnastics.



Man, you can perfectly say it "ok i was wrong". Noone will give you the looks, embarass you, but the oppossite.

And about niches, i don't have any problem with it to be honest, i actually prefer if specs had those niches, but right now there are logistical barriers which are too high to function properly.

A top =/= The top

[Krazzorx]

Most classes don't have a 4 second cast that is only available during a 20 second window.You don't need to definie it, you just need something to compare it to. If you compare PTR to Live it is clunkier, overall compared to other classes it doesn't seem clunky, you're right you can't really define it in comparison to nothing.

As for hot streak, it does also effect the efficacy of the legendary bracers, less procs directly reduces the chances to proc the legendary.

TBH I don't think you'll find many Fire Mages to have sympathy for those who hit the rng jackpot and got the bracers.

[Orrin]

Guys, devs wrote that there are buffs too all spells that were not datamined, and in another post wrote that Shadow spells damage was increased across the board. Does anyone know if something like that happened to Fire in last PTR patch? Has anyone tested base scalings of the spells? Has dps changed?

[Shangalar]

Guys, devs wrote that there are buffs too all spells that were not datamined, and in another post wrote that Shadow spells damage was increased across the board. Does anyone know if something like that happened to Fire in last PTR patch? Has anyone tested base scalings of the spells? Has dps changed?

Currently on PTR Fire has a 15% increase across the board and Arcane and Frost 12%.

[BiggestNoob]

Do the adds need to die in illy? yes or no? Do the adds need to die in xav? yes or no?

If anything Guarm and Ursoc are outlier because there is no cleave at all, the rest of the fights have some sort of cleave happening.

In no fight in this expansion is active AoE required, not even mythic Helya. It is better on every fight to have passive cleave and Fire is extremely bad at passive cleave. It's only good at burst AoE.

When every encounter is designed so your "niche" is a pointless trick that only has relevance in easy M+ dungeons, you most absolutely 100% should be buffed to be competitive at the only important metric this entire expansion (including NH): priority target.

Fire mages were really good throughout all of EN

False.

The real problem is with classes that are good where there is single target AND good where there is aoe cleave, if blizzard really is committed to specs having a niche then you have no leg to stand on.

And they aren't supposed to, because Ion confirmed during the beta that because of the legendary/artifact systems that they were going to make sure every spec was viable. Blizzard has already stated that specs aren't supposed to be one trick ponies this expansion, and here we are. We have one trick ponies and people are like "fire mage is good, look at all these pad fights where this damage does absolutely NOTHING to kill the boss." Nice argument. Brilliant. 10/10. You're a genius.

I love it when people who are terrible at this game and have no understanding of it talk about balance. Go back to McDonalds, the fries are getting cold.

[deadman1]

TBH I don't think you'll find many Fire Mages to have sympathy for those who hit the rng jackpot and got the bracers.

You can't dismiss a valid point because of jealousy.

The bracers got double nerfed, less procs and less damage when it does proc.

[Eyliria]

You can't dismiss a valid point because of jealousy.

The bracers got double nerfed, less procs and less damage when it does proc.

Sure I can, watch me:

I completely disagree with the design choice of having hard throughput legendaries when there are so many that are situational and give nowhere near the benefit as others - while being on a completely random loot table where you are looking at MONTH+ between legendary drops depending on your playtime.

It disproportionately benefits those who cozied up more to RNGesus while others, through no fault of their own, are left behind and with no recourse, until they hit the jackpot themselves.

Pure output legendaries was a terrible idea - now that this cat is out of the bag, the only sensible solution would be to allow us to target legendaries of our choice. Sure, it takes away some of the "YAY" when you get a good legendary drop, but the fact that more often than not, you'll get a legendary and go "blah" is more telling.

Otherwise, every legendary should've been like Sephuz or like Prydaz. Utilitary stat sticks.

[deadman1]

First things first don't start a conversation with a hostile line of dialogue especially when you don't understand the context of my statements.

Sure I can, watch me:

This is a can of worms, completely off the original topic and completely out of context. I was responding to this.

Umm. You can always find the time to hardcast one spell. All other ranged classes and healers do it all the time. And dealing almost 4 times more damage with a chance to crit is already good enough for Pyroblast.

I completely disagree with the design choice of having hard throughput legendaries when there are so many that are situational and give nowhere near the benefit as others - while being on a completely random loot table where you are looking at MONTH+ between legendary drops depending on your playtime.

It disproportionately benefits those who cozied up more to RNGesus while others, through no fault of their own, are left behind and with no recourse, until they hit the jackpot themselves.

Pure output legendaries was a terrible idea - now that this cat is out of the bag, the only sensible solution would be to allow us to target legendaries of our choice. Sure, it takes away some of the "YAY" when you get a good legendary drop, but the fact that more often than not, you'll get a legendary and go "blah" is more telling.

Otherwise, every legendary should've been like Sephuz or like Prydaz. Utilitary stat sticks.

I was not talking about whether nerfing the bracers was good or bad, I was just pointing out that these changes ARE in fact nerfs to the bracers. (PS - I agree the bracers are OP on live I'm not complaining about a nerf. Simply pointing out facts.)

I was not talking about the legendary system on the whole or if it was good or bad. (PS - it's awful)

[Deleted]

If you look at the forums, the fact they are good at aoe and will be average at single target in 7.1.5 you'd think they are nerfing aoe and single target and making both of them bad.

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A top =/= The top

Average =/= A top

[netherflame]

Average =/= A top

4th =/= average

The delusion I see coming from the post about fire mages is unbelievable, so with these you're going to play a spec that doesn't excel in multiple aspects. Its called tradeoffs, the idea that you should be exempt from having to give something up in order to gain other is not something that only everyone else should have to deal with.

At the end of the day we really would need to see what the PTR data looks like from the Nighthold bosses because based on people saying fire mages aren't good, while they are sitting at 4th in overall damage inside mythic EN, is kinda insane. What would happen if the 10 bosses inside nighthold had adds, would you still complain that single target sims are unfair? No, you wouldn't even care because as a spec that can cleave well you'd be allstars.

Complaining about single target parses is just insane because of the 10 bosses we've fought so far there are 2 of them that were single target fights, and ursoc gets an add on mythic.

[deadman1]

4th =/= average

Quoting skewed data isn't a valid argument.

Also being able to cheese DPS isn't a valid "trade-off" I much rather have consistent predictable DPS.