LFR's effort-reward model

[Dug]

I don't know about "every"

I would say there's a few afk people once in a while, but when that happens it usually means a very painful wipe

Yes, every LFR. I've not taken a part of an LFR in all the years it's been around that didn't have AFKs. I didn't say most of the raid but there are AFKs nonetheless. It's usually the garbage dpsers or auto shot hunters. I saw 4 the other day with Helya but we 1 shot it because me and 3 other DPS could pull 300k+ and demolished the adds.

LFR is not difficult and is not even comparable to Mythic where a single person dead or afk truly can wipe you.

[Lochton]

Well that's another issue that maybe I'll address on my next thread. The fact that RP in WoW is terrible. There's no reward and you have near zero control over your own story.

It's inexcusable

.....

You shouldn't be rewarded for being a roleplayer, the reward is the story you and your friends build together. If you find that RP in WoW is terrible, might have to be with own quality of roleplay, or the community you are within. As for the character story, you have the generic story through the whole game, as all RPG's. Even games made by companies with that goal, puts you on a generic storyline.

[Keiyra]

But we LFR raiders already consider it hard enough.

At the risk of further feeding what more and more seems to be obvious trolling....If you consider LFR hard enough, then you should be happy to receive the rewards you get for your hard work.

The rewards from "harder" content is clearly beyond your grasp (since you already find lfr hard) and you therefore have not earned them. - Nothing in your arguments in any way explains WHY the rewards should be higher in LFR than they currently are.

You get gold and loot that is better than heroic dungeons (which are easier). Mythic dungeons which are "harder" content (due to requiring manual grouping and coordination) reward better loot.

Therefore blizzard has given you content that is hard enough for you (you said lfr was hard) and has rewarded you appropriately...there is no conflict.

[burzian]

Trolling is such a loaded word. Let's call it "intentionally disingenuous arguing." I will say, he did better with this absurd concept than most of the people who choose to make threads like this.

[Reydan]

At the risk of further feeding what more and more seems to be obvious trolling....If you consider LFR hard enough, then you should be happy to receive the rewards you get for your hard work.

The rewards from "harder" content is clearly beyond your grasp (since you already find lfr hard) and you therefore have not earned them. - Nothing in your arguments in any way explains WHY the rewards should be higher in LFR than they currently are.

You get gold and loot that is better than heroic dungeons (which are easier). Mythic dungeons which are "harder" content (due to requiring manual grouping and coordination) reward better loot.

Therefore blizzard has given you content that is hard enough for you (you said lfr was hard) and has rewarded you appropriately...there is no conflict.

It won't matter what you say against him, he will keep making more of these silly threads.

[kary]

At the risk of further feeding what more and more seems to be obvious trolling....If you consider LFR hard enough, then you should be happy to receive the rewards you get for your hard work.

The rewards from "harder" content is clearly beyond your grasp (since you already find lfr hard) and you therefore have not earned them. - Nothing in your arguments in any way explains WHY the rewards should be higher in LFR than they currently are.

You get gold and loot that is better than heroic dungeons (which are easier). Mythic dungeons which are "harder" content (due to requiring manual grouping and coordination) reward better loot.

Therefore blizzard has given you content that is hard enough for you (you said lfr was hard) and has rewarded you appropriately...there is no conflict.

He claimed to do LFR and M+10 and thinks that LFR is comparable difficulty to the latter.

- - - Updated - - -

Trolling is such a loaded word. Let's call it "intentionally disingenuous arguing." I will say, he did better with this absurd concept than most of the people who choose to make threads like this.

He used a lot better formatting, yes.
His argument was the same played out, garbage argument as all of his predecessors.

[Deleted]

When TBC came out, it had for ( personal opinion ) amazing raid content and story. Many different raid bosses to enjoy. However I must admit that for other players who had less time to dedicate that content was too hard. If I remember well the statistics said that the vast majority of players did not clear all raid encounters.

Even though I personally hate it blizzard decided that they should implement a new system.

They split the same content into two difficulties. The difficult part was called now Heroic, and an easier version was established as Normal so more people will enjoy the full content.

Fast forward in expansion history. and suddenly we are being introduced to LFR, an even easier version of the raids that people can actually queue and clear without any organisation.

And here we are today:

The difficult raids that once upon a time used to be the normal version became heroics and now are called Mythics.
The previous easy normal versions have evolved into Heroics.
The even easier LFR version is now called normal.
And current Legion LFR that is easier than most 5 man dungeons.

And you think that Legion LFR drops low item level? It takes less communication and attention than court of starts mythic ( for an 825 geared player ).

You have been disillusioned by the ability to get ilvl from M+ dungeons and think it is low. And compared to mythic it is and it should be. LFR was designed for player to see the content and storyline even though they don't have the time or they don't want to spend it to progress.

It takes a lot of time and effort to gear up higher on high item level, and if you don't want to spend it or can't do it for any reason, then you don't deserve it.

[Deleted]

I could spin that so many ways but I believe we're better off talking about what's best for the game instead.

Like we were doing.

If you want to better the game then try and find new content for casuals to do with said "good gear"

Right now there is nothing for them to do and giving them good gear would make them...do nothing with it.

[Banquetto]

I enjoy LFR, but I still voted no. If anything, LFR loot should be reduced in level - heroics drop 825+ gear, and LFR EN drops 835+, despite being considerably easier.

Was the same in WoD - LFR was considerably easier than heroics, but rewarded higher level gear.

(don't have personal experience of LFR vs. 5-mans in expansions prior to that)

[burzian]

I enjoy LFR, but I still voted no. If anything, LFR loot should be reduced in level - heroics drop 825+ gear, and LFR EN drops 835+, despite being considerably easier.

Was the same in WoD - LFR was considerably easier than heroics, but rewarded higher level gear.

(don't have personal experience of LFR vs. 5-mans in expansions prior to that)

Personally I think LFR is great right where it's at, ilvl-wise. I'd say LFR and Heroic Dungeons are about on par in difficulty from a DPS perspective, LFR is a very small amount tougher for healers, and significantly tougher for tanks. They're all quite easy and manageable, but raiding concepts like tank switching and mandatory dispelling are at least encouraged in LFR, if not harshly enforced. No problem at all with LFR being better gear than heroic dungeons, and just a shade below Mythic dungeons.

[DakonBlackblade]

I can conceded on the lower item level, not overwhelmingly lower like it is now. LFR gear is objectively useless next to a piece of Mythic gear.

While the effort-reward doesn't follow the same correlation.

What effort ? I cleared trough all 4 avaliable wings of LFR today in less than 2 hours , without ever using 1 pot, flasking or eating, while half asleep and ignoring every single mechanic of every boss (other than Odyn's cause he can 1 shot ppl if you don't do the adds even in LFR). So what effort exacly ? There is none . And did it ever ocur to you that if the hardest content didn't give ppl much higher ilevel itens, everyone would simply farm LFR for gear and then stomp trough mythic ? Theres a progression path for raiding, LFR is the first step, it obviously should not give items anywhere nearly as powerful as mythic.

[kary]

What effort ? I cleared trough all 4 avaliable wings of LFR today in less than 2 hours , without ever using 1 pot, flasking or eating, while half asleep and ignoring every single mechanic of every boss (other than Odyn's cause he can 1 shot ppl if you don't do the adds even in LFR). So what effort exacly ? There is none . And did it ever ocur to you that if the hardest content didn't give ppl much higher ilevel itens, everyone would simply farm LFR for gear and then stomp trough mythic ? Theres a progression path for raiding, LFR is the first step, it obviously should not give items anywhere nearly as powerful as mythic.

Well to be frank, LFR has no place in the progression model, it's a step down for people who refuse to rise to the occasion.

[Gsara]

I dont see the issue with the current ilvl of rewards for LFR. Its basically a tourist mode and takes no effort what so ever to do. You can also easily pug normal and heroic EN and get higher ilvl if that what you want.

[MoanaLisa]

Care to elaborate on that?

Greater difficulty; greater reward. If you want better rewards play the higher difficulties. It's a baseline thing in the game. It doesn't need to be changed.

[Lochton]

Greater difficulty; greater reward. If you want better rewards play the higher difficulties. It's a baseline thing in the game. It doesn't need to be changed.

ML, tried telling the OP that in my first post.

Greater foes reward greater equipment.

[Chaelexi]

Many people that do LFR also raid higher difficulties. If you think that they do not, then you're obviously unaware of the fact.

I think you meant to say many people who raid LFR are also raiders at higher levels and are usually the reason why the LFR is successful. I know I have been bringing my weight belt since ToT and my back is still sore. WTB more LFR bosses like Durumu, it let you know who was there to play and who was there to be carried. Then you could kick them.

[MoanaLisa]

ML, tried telling the OP that in my first post.

Greater foes reward greater equipment.

Since I can't say what I would really like to say without giving myself an infraction I'll say instead that sometimes people need to hear things a few times for them to sink in.

[Chaelexi]

I think there is a life lesson here, rewards are there for the people who want to work for them.

[DakonBlackblade]

Well to be frank, LFR has no place in the progression model, it's a step down for people who refuse to rise to the occasion.

Ye I know that, but I didn't want to be too rude to the TC. LFRs sole purpose in Legion seens to be farming runes, if you're stingy like me, and hopping you might get a lucky legendary. Normal mode is easy enought and there are plenty of pugs, everyone can do normals even the guys who don't have a guild, just pug it, there are all sorts of groups forming everytime, Im sure one of them would fit the TC.

[Cynical Person]

In the time it took you to make and follow and respond to the various posts in this thread you could have applied to a good guild and gotten full mythic gear.