I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Dysheki]

Well, there is a reason I never stuck around mmo champion to help other ferals. And these responses reaffirm that. Toxic casuals all day.

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Forced *to a point* I'd say. There's a certain amount of effort that must be given to down Mythic bosses be it grinding out those few extra traits for some DPS/HPS that can meet the fights demands. That I agree with but I think those are necessary if we're to keep up this idea of different difficulties with higher rewards the farther you go. But up to a point it's basically silly how much people will bust their ass grinding because they're trying to increase their output by .01 percent or something.

Like that guy that just grinded out all the artifact traits (even the 35 20/20). That's not necessary at all for the current content. It'll make the new content a hell of a lot easier to be sure but it's not necessary and he chose to go that far because he wants to be above everyone else.

Before the changes to mythic Guarm, you needed the 5% on most Raiders to meet the dps check with 1 tank and 3 healers. So any additional percentage no matter how small helps considering it absolutely is mandatory based on blizzards tuning.

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because it is - i was quite exited and happy when i got legendary today on my alt - and when wq gear titanforges im also very happy - dont project you own feelings on others - i can bet you that there as as many if not more people in game who indeed enjoy current loot system as there are those who complain about it.

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ye and it even has its own medical name/term : OCD - if you cant stop yourself from doin something seek out proffesional help.



most raiders dont - dont mix up upper tier of hardcore raiders with "most" you just make yourself look really stupid.
"most"raiders never leave lfr if anything (since lfr makes up for 70 % + of raiders population)

Most mythic raiders was my intent. Stop nitpicking and calling people stupid when you can't even make that mental leap.

[Relapses]

Well, there is a reason I never stuck around mmo champion to help other ferals. And these responses reaffirm that. Toxic casuals all day.

Mythic raiders ruined the game, this is their vengeance. It's silly. You've made great arguments and even though the anti-Mythic raider circlejerk is strong around here, it's inevitable for Blizzard to acknowledge the concerns many players in this thread have expressed.

[kary]

Well, there is a reason I never stuck around mmo champion to help other ferals. And these responses reaffirm that. Toxic casuals all day.

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Before the changes to mythic Guarm, you needed the 5% on most Raiders to meet the dps check with 1 tank and 3 healers. So any additional percentage no matter how small helps considering it absolutely is mandatory based on blizzards tuning.

The first 5% is about 20% of the artifact's full AP cost or something like that. I'm sure that there's the actual number somewhere, but you really can't compare that DK to what you need, even for mythic progression. He has something like double if not triple the AP required to get to trait 34.

[Dug]

Before the changes to mythic Guarm, you needed the 5% on most Raiders to meet the dps check with 1 tank and 3 healers. So any additional percentage no matter how small helps considering it absolutely is mandatory based on blizzards tuning.

Just saying but 34 isn't that hard to achieve. I'm at 32 and I've played casually since the start. The majority of my AP comes from world quests.

I can understand from a numbers perspective where there's a certain factor of "forced" requirements but Blizz also admitted ToV was overtuned across the board and made changes necessary.

[skitzy129]

OP and anyone that agrees should just leave, immediately. This genre isn't for you, whether you like raiding or not. You're all clearly too fucking stupid to fundamentally accept why it has to be how it is and why that's a good thing.

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Just saying but 34 isn't that hard to achieve. I'm at 32 and I've played casually since the start. The majority of my AP comes from world quests.

I can understand from a numbers perspective where there's a certain factor of "forced" requirements but Blizz also admitted ToV was overtuned across the board and made changes necessary.

People thinking they need that 5% to have any chance and forcing it upon themselves as a requirement is the problem. Not that the 5% is there and takes time to get. Especially anyone doing anything below Mythic. If you're still not done with Heroic it's not because you're missing that trait. That's like reason #114 on the list.

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Just saying but 34 isn't that hard to achieve. I'm at 32 and I've played casually since the start. The majority of my AP comes from world quests.

I can understand from a numbers perspective where there's a certain factor of "forced" requirements but Blizz also admitted ToV was overtuned across the board and made changes necessary.

People thinking they need that 5% to have any chance and forcing it upon themselves as a requirement is the problem. Not that the 5% is there and takes time to get. Especially anyone doing anything below Mythic. If you're still not done with Heroic it's not because you're missing that trait. That's like reason #114 on the laundry list of reasons you failed.

[kary]

This is from wowhead.

Summary of Artifact Power costs
First 13 points in your primary Artifact Trait tree:
For ONE Artifact Weapon - 6,500 Artifact Power
For TWO Artifact Weapons - 13,000 Artifact Power
For THREE Artifact Weapons - 19,500 Artifact Power
For FOUR Artifact Weapons - 26,000 Artifact Power
All 34 points in your primary Artifact Trait tree:
For ONE Artifact Weapon - 5,216,130 Artifact Power
For TWO Artifact Weapons - 10,432,260 Artifact Power
For THREE Artifact Weapons - 15,648,390 Artifact Power
For FOUR Artifact Weapons - 20,864,520 Artifact Power
Ranks 1-20 of your Bonus Artifact Trait: 60,040,200 Artifact Power
All primary Traits + Maxed Bonus Trait: 65,256,330 Artifact Power

[AeneasBK]

You haven't even played? Why are you even responding. Look, there has always been some kind of rep grind, valor pickup, coin grind, etc. But those either have a goal (rep grind to exalted) or a limit (think valor).

But AP gains are uncapped and you get stronger at each gain. You also can get better than mythic raid gear by doing M+ which is easier than actual raiding for the most part. I have a few pieces of gear from M+ that are vastly superior to anything I can get in a mythic raid. I don't play this game for dungeons or dailies. I play for raids. And if I'm not playing at a certain level I'd rather not play. It is what it is.

Sure, I just meant that since WoW has existed there have been optional things to do to improve your character and it is entirely the community that determines what is "compulsory" or not. I'm sure you can't clear mythic raiding by only raiding very easily. Same as you couldn't do 10 man exclusive content very easily. The community says "You must PuG 25 man for the gear" or "You must cap reps for upgrades" or other OPTIONAL things that people determine is not optional. You could find a (or even FORM a) guild that doesn't force its members to do the optional crap. Sure you will progress slower. Which do you care more about?

Seems like mythic+dungeons are the plat du jour this expansion. The one I pointed out earlier was the rep grinds in MoP, people were whining fucking full blast about "compulsory" rep grinds (which was almost the most retarded thing ever because the best rewards from rep were of a comparable iLvL to what dropped in normal mode Heart of Fear which would have come out a few weeks later; and no one thought that PvP was compulsory despite it dropping BETTER gear than the faction stuff, which was a massive dissonance within the community Apparently because it involved PvP it didn't count even tho it progressed your toon, haw haw haw).

The problem, as it has always been, is inside you head, or at the behest of other members of the community. It isn't inherent to the game itself. The times wehen it has been inherent to the game was back when, for example, you physically couldn't enter the dungeon until you'd completed it's attunement. Is there any of that shit in the game? I undertand its been vehemently opposed whenever people bring it up.

[Dysheki]

Those optional things you mentioned were NEVER as powerful as these things are now. What people complained about before I didn't really have an issue with as it wasn't much if a deal once you were progressing into mythic content. I feel like you don't understand my point . . .

[Eapoe]

OP and anyone that agrees should just leave, immediately. This genre isn't for you, whether you like raiding or not. You're all clearly too fucking stupid to fundamentally accept why it has to be how it is and why that's a good thing.

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People thinking they need that 5% to have any chance and forcing it upon themselves as a requirement is the problem. Not that the 5% is there and takes time to get. Especially anyone doing anything below Mythic. If you're still not done with Heroic it's not because you're missing that trait. That's like reason #114 on the list.

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People thinking they need that 5% to have any chance and forcing it upon themselves as a requirement is the problem. Not that the 5% is there and takes time to get. Especially anyone doing anything below Mythic. If you're still not done with Heroic it's not because you're missing that trait. That's like reason #114 on the laundry list of reasons you failed.

Ah, insults that show you have no real arguement and want to brute force your attitude of why. No one is saying the system is inherently bad, as many people have stated it's great casuals have a reason to keep logging in. People are stating the system isn't perfect and goes against and even strains the progression oriented.
As someone else pointed, before the change the 5% was absoltuely required to make the check to kill Guarm on mythic. It's still damn near required for Odyn. Most people in this thread are (hopefully) pushing mythic raiding.
Some of the issues could easily be fixed, many ways to fix it have been posted countless times, but time will tell if it does get adjusted. At this point in the xpac probably not, but if it continues into next xpac hopefully some changes occur.

[AeneasBK]

And I think you're stubbornly refusing to see my (and others already posted) view on the topic. You have decided that as it gives a power upgrade it is mandatory, I've seen the same mentality countless times.

It's the curse of the min-maxer. You seem to lose sight of the purpose of min-maxing; which initially is to "kill the bosses". Like I said; if your guild won't take you if you don't do this stuff; that isn't the *game* doing anything.

If Mythic bosses are mathmatically unkillable without these power upgrades then bam, you got me. I get the impression they probably aren't though*

*I did point out earlier that none of this applies to people racing. If you're racing to server firsts against other guilds than it's just a case of how badly you want to beat the other guild; but if thats the aim then yes, these things are "mandatory"

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=AeneasBK;43690991]And I think you're stubbornly refusing to see my (and others already posted) view on the topic. You have decided that as it gives a power upgrade it is mandatory, I've seen the same mentality countless times.

It's the curse of the min

M guarm and helya needs the 5% trait on most of your raid atleast.

[AeneasBK]

M guarm and helya needs the 5% trait on most of your raid atleast.

I understand that the initial 5% isn't too hard to attain though; its the additional 0.5% per tick from grinding after that which is so tedious.

[Deleted]

without 5% trait on anyone no chance on enrage of M guarm and helya pretty much.

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I understand that the initial 5% isn't too hard to attain though; its the additional 0.5% per tick from grinding after that which is so tedious.

which dont matter as much the intial 5% matters alot more, but the 0,5% ones after dont increase as much in cost anymore.

[AeneasBK]

which dont matter as much the intial 5% matters alot more, but the 0,5% ones after dont increase as much in cost anymore.

Right but isn't the complaint that you have to endlessly spam M+ dungeons to farm AP for these 0.5% increases....

And the counter argument is "No... no you don't. You just feel like you do"

[Relapses]

And the counter argument is "No... no you don't. You just feel like you do"

That's the problem -- we feel like we do because other people set the bar higher. Nobody in a Mythic raiding guild wants to be the guy who's 20 points behind on his artifact weapon because he doesn't feel like running 20 fucking Mythic dungeons a day and completing 27,000 WQs. But since there are people who are raiding Mythic who do this, it becomes the new standard. That's where the disconnect here is.

The problem with this thread is that there are people discussing it who have some massive fucking justice boner for "giving it back to the Mythic raiders who destroyed the game for casuals" whom insist that this is exactly how the game should be played and any Mythic raiders left out by this change are just not cut out for it. It's why this topic has gone on for as long as it has; one group absolutely refuses to see things from the other's perspective.

[Deleted]

Right but isn't the complaint that you have to endlessly spam M+ dungeons to farm AP for these 0.5% increases....

And the counter argument is "No... no you don't. You just feel like you do"

Ofcourse you're forced to if you want to stay competitive. Yes you are not technically forced to do anything, you can choose to do only LFR you can choose to do only PvP, you can choose to quit the game, you can choose a lot of stuff, but if raiding on a competitive level is what you find enjoyment in guess what, YOU ARE FORCED to do non raid content and that takes a lot of additional time every week, it is NOT a choice, and that is the core problem most are having a problem with.

[Zoldor]

Personal preference is a determined reward system and not a random reward system. It is less about the grind and more about the randomness of my reward. A random factor or two is fine, but we are to a point of 4 and 5 different random factors if not more. That is just too much. Same reason I'm not playing slot machines.

[AeneasBK]

Nobody in a Mythic raiding guild wants to be the guy who's 20 points behind on his artifact weapon because he doesn't feel like running 20 fucking Mythic dungeons a day and completing 27,000 WQs.

And there aren't enough people like that to make guilds who focus on "mythic raiding only", or at least who's only requisite is to raid and don't demand maximum AP from all sources? I mean, fair enough if the game is just tuned too hard. How long did it take before the first kills started coming in? Could it maybe just be that players aren't *good* enough to do mythic raiding without these additional upgrades? I'm asking that out of ignorance here, it isn't a snide dig at anyones self-perception of their skill.

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Ofcourse you're forced to if you want to stay competitive.

Defining competetive as "killing bosses first" or "ranking on WoL" (or w/e site is used these days)

[Relapses]

And there aren't enough people like that to make guilds who focus on "mythic raiding only", or at least who's only requisite is to raid and don't demand maximum AP from all sources? I mean, fair enough if the game is just tuned too hard. How long did it take before the first kills started coming in? Could it maybe just be that players aren't *good* enough to do mythic raiding without these additional upgrades? I'm asking that out of ignorance here, it isn't a snide dig at anyones self-perception of their skill.

Again, you're not looking at the whole picture here. It's not that the bosses aren't possible to be killed without the AP (although M-Guarm/Helya are good examples of exactly this), it's that if you aren't on the same level as the people who do no-life the game, it's viewed as not participating enough. Previously, you could raid and mostly ignore the repeatable content. In Legion, you're forced to do it to stay competitive. It's that change in game design philosophy which is rubbing some Mythic raiders the wrong way.

[AeneasBK]

I'll start by saying thanks for the replies and patience.

Again, you're not looking at the whole picture here. It's not that the bosses aren't possible to be killed without the AP (although M-Guarm/Helya are good examples of exactly this), it's that if you aren't on the same level as the people who do no-life the game, it's viewed as not participating enough.

I'd ask by whom and why does that matter so much; considering what I asked in the post. And I'd ask you what you mean by competetive, killing the bosses first or ranking for highest DPS/HPS or w/e. Farming it more easily every week?

Would this issue be solved by nerfing the content as was done in previous expansions, a few % each week... (which arguably is just what this AP thingie is, it just requires that you log into the game and do stuff rather than wait it out)...