Mythic + impacting guild progression

[Banard]

So I finally killed Myhtic Xavius...GG, according to wow progress only 5% of players have done this. GG.

...but my guild is ranked around 2000? wow...that is a bit nuts....3 months into xpac and already around 2000 guilds have cleared the first raid? Looking back threw time on wow progress on several servers you can see the numbers of guild having cleared content have increased substantially. At least that is my interpretation....and the past progression stats were for longer period of time...

It is taking 3 months what use to take 12 months + (look at HFC, SOO, DS...all the end raids that lasted for ever and compare it to EN...progression seems very similar)

So what has truly changed? The increase in average ilevel of a guild have accelerated substantially b/c of mythic + dungeons. Until this morning i have not realised the impact these dungeons are having.

wish we could see average ilevel of guild over the teirs as a time trend...i think the "acceleration" is quite dramatic. Sorry to use vanilla as an example but we have gone from one extreme to the other (and i didnt play vanilla) ...vanilla you got 2 pieces of gear to drop and 40 people to fight over it. That's the drop per raid boss once a week. Now you get 2 drops per 5 man dungeon that you can do unlimited times (hours of play is the only restriction).

Overall i think this is a good thing but blizzard needs to produce content a lot more quickly now....because of their game design changes, as consumers we are consuming the content faster and in larger numbers.

What are peoples thoughts? More i think about this ...more i am thinking this is a double edge sword.

[Deleted]

Now you have Mythic ToV to work on. I don't see your problem?

[Deleted]

Now you have Mythic ToV to work on. I don't see your problem?

Work on? Mythic Helya is an intentional block. Many semi hardcore guilds (300 mythic Guarm kills) are doing x2-3 mythic EN splits rather than wasting time on Helya, especially since you can get her loot from heroic.

[SirCowdog]

So what has truly changed?

Gaming culture has changed a LOT since the days of vanilla WoW. What used to be acceptable in terms of time-investment and risk/reward simply will not be tolerated by today's playerbase. A lot of that is because, after this much time spent in MMOs, the community has gathered a lot of data and analyzed it over the years. Also is the fact that the community has become acclimated to the environment. While raids used to be something fairly new, these days most people are old hands. Even if they don't know the exact fight going in, they know what to expect from a raid in terms of time spent, organization, preparation, etc.

Gear acquisition is part of it too, of course. It's no longer a case of spending countless hours and weeks, and even MONTHS just to get on par before setting foot in a raid. Consumables and other buffs are more convenient, as it communication. Players have better tools to run the raids as well, such as UI improvements, strategy videos, parses, etc.

Trying to point at any one thing(such as iLVL) as a source for the lower time-investment to finish the highest raids is silly. It's an entire range of causes.

[salthar]

you are also comparing an entry level raid tier of only 7 bosses, to end of expansion raid tiers with 13 and 14 bosses. If you look at other entry level raids like Highmaul, 7% of guilds killed Mythic Imperator compared to 3% of guilds killing Mythic Blackhand. We will have to wait for Nighthold to happen before we can make assumptions.

[cFortyfive]

Overall i think this is a good thing but blizzard needs to produce content a lot more quickly now....because of their game design changes, as consumers we are consuming the content faster and in larger numbers.

Well that means you have a raid now where you probably can't even kill the first boss given that you just now handled xavius.

[Fevyz]

Work on? Mythic Helya is an intentional block. Many semi hardcore guilds (300 mythic Guarm kills) are doing x2-3 mythic EN splits rather than wasting time on Helya, especially since you can get her loot from heroic.

You mean Helya is tuned accordingly on mythic and not like some heroic boss like M Xavius was?

Have to actually progress for a change, damn.

[Obsession]

So what has truly changed?

Mythic EN was tuned for your entire raiding having a small handful of legendaries and artifact weapons being ~20. You killed the bosses with your raid doing a lot more damage than intended, with some of your raiders probably having 5% more damage/healing on their weapons.

That's why EN is extremely easy. You'll be saying the same thing in a month or two when you kill M Guarm while your entire raid has 15% damage on their weapons "why is the dps check boss so easy"

[Nevcairiel]

So what has truly changed?

Nothing has changed, M EN was just easier then previous comparable raid tiers. Its not a raid you should draw any conclusions from.
M EN opened at a time when players were still in full weapon progression, but by now every half-serious player has a 35+ weapon, so that compensates for a lot as well.

Future raid tiers will hopefully be more challenging once again and more accurately reflect the players gear levels with maxed out weapons and full accounting for legendaries, as the progression curve for the artifact gets more flat - especially in Nighthold, which won't have any new traits coming to jumble everything up again.

Can already see this trend on Helya, who is quite a lot more challenging then anything EN had to throw at you.

[Socialhealer]

You mean Helya is tuned accordingly on mythic and not like some heroic boss like M Xavius was?

Have to actually progress for a change, damn.

tuned, hahaha, comeback to me when you kill it without any shadow priests or MM hunters, what? we should class stack in mythic? certain specs are 100% required and it's bring the spec not the player? wow doesn't that sound fun 36 specs in the game and the other 34 can't do shit without those 2, good tuning and design, Kappa.

edit: throw in fire mage and these 3 specs have more representation than every other dps spec combined at helya, there's difficulty and then there's mechanics you can't beat without class stacking, give every guild 3 shadow priests 4 mm hunters and a couple of fire mages and i bet helya kills start appearing everywhere.

but i do agree xavius was a complete joke and needed to be much harder, i just find helya to be poorly designed when some specs are required to kill a boss.

[pmkaboo]

It is taking 3 months what use to take 12 months + (look at HFC, SOO, DS...all the end raids that lasted for ever and compare it to EN...progression seems very similar)

youre comparing the first raid to the last raids, do i need to say more?

[Fevyz]

tuned, hahaha, comeback to me when you kill it without any shadow priests or MM hunters, what? we should class stack in mythic? certain specs are 100% required and it's bring the spec not the player? wow doesn't that sound fun 36 specs in the game and the other 34 can't do shit without those 2, good tuning and design, Kappa.

edit: throw in fire mage and these 3 specs have more representation than every other dps spec combined at helya, there's difficulty and then there's mechanics you can't beat without class stacking, give every guild 3 shadow priests 4 mm hunters and a couple of fire mages and i bet helya kills start appearing everywhere.

but i do agree xavius was a complete joke and needed to be much harder, i just find helya to be poorly designed when some specs are required to kill a boss.

It's almost always been like this tho where certain specs are just alot more valuable than others. This is no different to stacking boomkins on blackhand as a "recent" example. Or stacking rogues/mages on spine of deathwing.

Don't get me wrong, I think its dumb too that certain specs are simply unusable due to how an encounter works, but it's been like this for ages. It sucks, but it's not going to change anywhere soon.

[Socialhealer]

It's almost always been like this tho where certain specs are just alot more valuable than others. This is no different to stacking boomkins on blackhand as a "recent" example. Or stacking rogues/mages on spine of deathwing.

Don't get me wrong, I think its dumb too that certain specs are simply unusable due to how an encounter works, but it's been like this for ages. It sucks, but it's not going to change anywhere soon.

yeh helya just feels like it's got worse, and im still salty over HFC arcane mage and MM hunter facerolling their easy rotations for some of the best dps in the game, but yeh deathwing was stupid design where tendons had too much hp so only insane burst classes could get them down fast enough. The 15% hp nerf helped, but i don't even see what they could fix about helya to stop MM hunters being godmode at killing slimes, or mass dispell.

[Brewhan]

I'd rather pug +9s and beyond with 1hr time intervals than sitting my ass down when someone else tells me to do for 3hrs 4-5 days a week on progression. I CBA doing that in 2016. M+ are a godsend for keeping my gear on par im 873 and I've only cleared heroic EN once in a pug for achievement aotc. I get to play when I want and gear when I want feels nice.

[Gorgodeus]

EN =/= end game raid. Comparing it to HFC, SOO, and DS is silly.

[Seramore]

Work on? Mythic Helya is an intentional block. Many semi hardcore guilds (300 mythic Guarm kills) are doing x2-3 mythic EN splits rather than wasting time on Helya, especially since you can get her loot from heroic.

sounds like a problem with the "semi hardcore" guilds and not the content itself

EN =/= end game raid. Comparing it to HFC, SOO, and DS is silly.

what

[Deleted]

Because people outgear EN mythic. It's made to be a challange at 840~~ ilvl and 15-20 traits, what was your raids average ilvl and atri progress?

[Sierra85]

EN is not a true mythic raid, it is an introductory raid similar to Mogu'shan vaults. its design is to introduce new players to the end game raid scene.

[Gorgodeus]

what

OP is trying to compare the 1st raid in an expac to 3 raids that were the end tier in expacs. Everyone knows the 1st raid is easier and gets cleared a lot sooner than the end tier ones.

[SirCowdog]

Not silly at all, M+ is affecting raiding a lot and it is why the (first) raid has been cleared so fast. ToV, another story, as you no longer can obtain gear from M+ to clear it and is clearly balanced around (good) legendaries.

I'm just surprised that the OP only realized that now. Most decent guilds cleared EN M in a week at most.

Effecting it, sure! The sole cause? Hardly.

Keep in mind that the comparison was the range from vanilla til now. I can't say for certain, bet I bet if you look at the average time spent clearing raids over the years it will steadily decrease within the window of time that it's current.

On the other hand, I'm actually happy with the dynamic of gearing through mythic+ vs raiding. But I do agree it needs to stay in line and not make raid gear irrelevant.