Keystone system what do you think?

[Saphyron]

Don't see what the problem is for people finding groups.
Heck if you can't find one make one.

I have a 850 DH, takes about 5-10 min to find a group.
I have a 856 Huntard, takes about 6 min to find a group.
I have a 872 Holy priest. That goes instant. More or less.
I have a 862 Prot Pala. That one is harder since most groups never need tanks. So from anywhere from 2 min to an hour.

[Lochton]

I actually like that system, just not when I get a key for a place I hate.

[Armourboy]

Don't see what the problem is for people finding groups.
Heck if you can't find one make one.

I have a 850 DH, takes about 5-10 min to find a group.
I have a 856 Huntard, takes about 6 min to find a group.
I have a 872 Holy priest. That goes instant. More or less.
I have a 862 Prot Pala. That one is harder since most groups never need tanks. So from anywhere from 2 min to an hour.

Might be because I'm usually on in the early morning hours, but I've spent multiple hours trying to get into groups, eventually made my own and 3 DPS sat there for another hour before giving up. People's experiences will not always be the same. Even mine has swung wildly. I've had groups instantly before, and then like I said I've spent all night with nothing just looking at that dang UI. And heck I'm a fire mage, a spec most don't mind having in mythic +

[Saphyron]

Might be because I'm usually on in the early morning hours, but I've spent multiple hours trying to get into groups, eventually made my own and 3 DPS sat there for another hour before giving up. People's experiences will not always be the same. Even mine has swung wildly. I've had groups instantly before, and then like I said I've spent all night with nothing just looking at that dang UI. And heck I'm a fire mage, a spec most don't mind having in mythic +

Yeah early morning hours is bad at least in EU. Never do it then cause it takes too long.

I either do it from 12:00 cet to 15:00 cet in weekends and 21:00 to 23:00 cet in weekdays.

Maybe the reason why my personal groups fill faster is because my only requirement is 840-850 ilvl and I always specify its for clear only. if we get 3 chest its a bonus. (I almost always get 3-chest anyways)

[Woop Woop]

Lol you play op fotm ranged? Try being a melee that isnt WW monk. Next question please.

And I am in a guild, a raid guild. Not everyone likes doing 5mans over and over. But please, continue to be condescending, clearly there is no problem with finding groups even though the lead developer has said they could do better with the group finder. Carry on I say!

Talking about 5 man content.
Shadow is apparently op fotm there.

I just can't take what you say seriously after reading that.

[tratra]

Its very frustrating without a pool of friends or being in an active guild.

Once I ran M+12 for 1:30 hours and we reached last boss and 1 person left... That literally made me not to login for days.

Generally the system is very flawed atm, it should have CD's etc.

[Deleted]

What do you guys think?

I think that if they tried to implement Dungeon Finder for mythic plus, they would either have to nerf the difficulty and all the mechanics to LFR level or people would end up unable to finish anything, much like the Heroic dungeons in early Cataclysm.

Difficult content requires coordination, coordination requires pre-made groups.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I wish there was a way I could choose to do a dungeon without needing a keystone, but otherwise it works perfectly.

[Niwes]

It gives and endless supply of Artifact Power, for raiders this creates a horrible situation where:

A) You have the time and will to invest, you will be ahead of your peer and from personal experience you will look at others as if they're slacking
B) You have the time but not the will to mindleslly grind Maw of Souls and Darkheart Thicket over and over again, leaving you feeling bad or even apathic for not wasting your life for minor upgrades
C) You don't have the time, you fall behind and can't do anything about it.

The majority of even hardcore raiders fall to the slots B and C.

Never before has there been an endless grind for raiding rewards and because of that it is a bad system. On top of all this it was supposed to replace the challenge mode system which so far has not been the case.

The system is great, not having any limits is bad.

exactly. cap it (even with a relative high cap) and everything is fine.

- - - Updated - - -

I think that if they tried to implement Dungeon Finder for mythic plus, they would either have to nerf the difficulty and all the mechanics to LFR level or people would end up unable to finish anything, much like the Heroic dungeons in early Cataclysm.

Difficult content requires coordination, coordination requires pre-made groups.

what i never get (same goes for premde raid pugs) is this:

whats the difference to click on pug tool, get invited to a bunch of strangers talkin solely through chat (in 90% of all cases) and leave whenever i want ?

there is literally NO difference to lfr/lfg. expect that lfr/lfg at least give you a debuff (deserteur) for leaving the grp too fast. thats even better.

dont get me wrong. i HATE lfr/lfg (cause of stupity easiness). but i dont get that ppl that act like theres THAT HUGE difference in pug tool grps. it is NOT "premade". ofc you can. but in 85% of all cases ppl join solo to a group of strangers from another realm, not talking much, and leave afterwards. with 1 single click. there is NO difference to the lfr/lfg architecture in general. its fukin the same thing.

blizzard did a great job selling higher difficulty content as not lfr'ish, with the same fukin architecture, so ppl/blizz not get the "lfr problems" through common sense, urban myth, or whatever you will callin it.

and when someone want to mention "same ilvl niveau of groups/plaers" or "leader could decide who is in group": first, niveau ppl by ilvl could be done without any probs technically by the lfr/lfg system. second part is also in fact the same as a "fix" system, bc 95% of all leaders know nothing about the player and simply take highest ilvl. there is no big choice out there.

absurd stuff. never get, how ppl selling themselfes there is a difference between pugs and lfr/lfg "meta-game"-wise.

[Wondercrab]

In concept I think it's great, but the execution is severely flawed, specifically due to the fact that speedrunning is *massively* incentivised, to the point of making runs feel very unrewarding if you don't get multiple chests. While the speedrunning component should exist, and perhaps even have some non-cosmetic rewards (like increased AP etc.) attached to it, offering the lion's share of Mythic+ loot from 3 chest runs incentivises players to massively overgear keystone dungeons and basically break the intended mechanics as hard as possible by mass-pulling trash and then blowing up bosses in a matter of seconds.

I do not think the above style of gameplay is a particularly fun one, nor what WoW is designed around. As mentioned, it's fine for it to exist as a means to compete on leaderboards, or for mild bonus rewards if a group outgears the place, but I am strongly opposed to design that pidgeonholes dungeon content into speedrunning content. Much like with raiding (and heck, all other PvE in general), beating Mythic+ dungeons should be primarily about whether you can beat them, not whether you can beat them in under ten minutes using the wonkiest strategies you can think of.

[Marrilaife]

I have a 850 DH, takes about 5-10 min to find a group.
I have a 856 Huntard, takes about 6 min to find a group.
I have a 872 Holy priest. That goes instant. More or less.
I have a 862 Prot Pala. That one is harder since most groups never need tanks. So from anywhere from 2 min to an hour.

Funny that you say so, people seem to claim it's hard to find tanks while on the other hand all I see is "lf tank, warrior or druid" (before ignore pain nerf it was "lf warrior tank" only). There are myths circulating around the community that palas are squishy, monks are weird and hard to heal, and so on.

There's also prejudice against disc priests even if healers are in demand.

The most hilarious part is some people still live in the box where ele shamans and ret palas suck while they're poised to be one of the better dps for m+.

[Niwes]

In concept I think it's great, but the execution is severely flawed, specifically due to the fact that speedrunning is *massively* incentivised, to the point of making runs feel very unrewarding if you don't get multiple chests. While the speedrunning component should exist, and perhaps even have some non-cosmetic rewards (like increased AP etc.) attached to it, offering the lion's share of Mythic+ loot from 3 chest runs incentivises players to massively overgear keystone dungeons and basically break the intended mechanics as hard as possible by mass-pulling trash and then blowing up bosses in a matter of seconds.

I do not think the above style of gameplay is a particularly fun one, nor what WoW is designed around. As mentioned, it's fine for it to exist as a means to compete on leaderboards, or for mild bonus rewards if a group outgears the place, but I am strongly opposed to design that pidgeonholes dungeon content into speedrunning content. Much like with raiding (and heck, all other PvE in general), beating Mythic+ dungeons should be primarily about whether you can beat them, not whether you can beat them in under ten minutes using the wonkiest strategies you can think of.

not to forget the fact blizz is shotting their own balancing in the knee. bc when you offer time-based content (rush) instead of "can we just get it done somehow?" then you prefer ALWAYS burst-specs and aoe-specs. and you miss the chance to get class diversity to shine, with different toolkits to "get the job done".

or in short: with time-based rush contents the fuck up their own balancing of classes.

[Gsara]

Its the best thing thats been added to the game in years imo.

[Niwes]

Funny that you say so, people seem to claim it's hard to find tanks while on the other hand all I see is "lf tank, warrior or druid" (before ignore pain nerf it was "lf warrior tank" only). There are myths circulating around the community that palas are squishy, monks are weird and hard to heal, and so on.

There's also prejudice against disc priests even if healers are in demand.

The most hilarious part is some people still live in the box where ele shamans and ret palas suck while they're poised to be one of the better dps for m+.

all correct. but you cant blame content architecture for stupidity of ppls.

[Kuruption]

Its the best thing thats been added to the game in years imo.

100% agreed. I absolutely love it.

[Niwes]

Its the best thing thats been added to the game in years imo.

that goes way too far for me

maybe. but solely in this xpac with this horrible alt unfriendlyness. itherwise i would hate m+ for useless preventing me playin my alts. since most ppl stopped playin alts cause of horrible class design on most classes and absurd alt unfriendlyness, this xpac seems the right place for endless grinding of dngs for a tiny upgrade...

[Marrilaife]

In concept I think it's great, but the execution is severely flawed, specifically due to the fact that speedrunning is *massively* incentivised, to the point of making runs feel very unrewarding if you don't get multiple chests. While the speedrunning component should exist, and perhaps even have some non-cosmetic rewards (like increased AP etc.) attached to it, offering the lion's share of Mythic+ loot from 3 chest runs incentivises players to massively overgear keystone dungeons and basically break the intended mechanics as hard as possible by mass-pulling trash and then blowing up bosses in a matter of seconds.

I do not think the above style of gameplay is a particularly fun one, nor what WoW is designed around. As mentioned, it's fine for it to exist as a means to compete on leaderboards, or for mild bonus rewards if a group outgears the place, but I am strongly opposed to design that pidgeonholes dungeon content into speedrunning content. Much like with raiding (and heck, all other PvE in general), beating Mythic+ dungeons should be primarily about whether you can beat them, not whether you can beat them in under ten minutes using the wonkiest strategies you can think of.

I fully agree, it's unfun design, for many groups "no 3 chests" equals to "fail run", it creates gogogo zerg mentality and incentivizes overgearing, also because of AP a lot of overgeared people don't mind joining lower keys outpushing the medium geared people from the pool, because if you can choose between 860 and 890 ilvl dps very few people will not choose the highest one.

Also the fact that people who run a lot of m+ treat people in their raid team who run it way less as "leeches", but people who feel "forced" to run those m+ to not be treated as "leeches" by those guildies only hear golden advice like "no one forces you, just learn to pace yourself".

If the game doesn't pace itself, the community will gravitate towards insisting max amount = required amount. Just look at ilvl requirements growing. I'm already seeing groups "lf [something] 890+ link [keystone conqueror]" etc. We're dangerously closing to the existing gear ceiling with those demands.

[Deleted]

exactly. cap it (even with a relative high cap) and everything is fine.

- - - Updated - - -



what i never get (same goes for premde raid pugs) is this:

whats the difference to click on pug tool, get invited to a bunch of strangers talkin solely through chat (in 90% of all cases) and leave whenever i want ?

there is literally NO difference to lfr/lfg. expect that lfr/lfg at least give you a debuff (deserteur) for leaving the grp too fast. thats even better.

dont get me wrong. i HATE lfr/lfg (cause of stupity easiness). but i dont get that ppl that act like theres THAT HUGE difference in pug tool grps. it is NOT "premade". ofc you can. but in 85% of all cases ppl join solo to a group of strangers from another realm, not talking much, and leave afterwards. with 1 single click. there is NO difference to the lfr/lfg architecture in general. its fukin the same thing.

blizzard did a great job selling higher difficulty content as not lfr'ish, with the same fukin architecture, so ppl/blizz not get the "lfr problems" through common sense, urban myth, or whatever you will callin it.

and when someone want to mention "same ilvl niveau of groups/plaers" or "leader could decide who is in group": first, niveau ppl by ilvl could be done without any probs technically by the lfr/lfg system. second part is also in fact the same as a "fix" system, bc 95% of all leaders know nothing about the player and simply take highest ilvl. there is no big choice out there.

absurd stuff. never get, how ppl selling themselfes there is a difference between pugs and lfr/lfg "meta-game"-wise.

Class and spec composition is really important for mythic plus, and something the dungeon finder would never be able to take into consideration. I would never, ever, want to queue up for dungeon finder mythic plus, as that thing is awful at creating proper group compositions, we saw that in early Cata when it created groups which didn't even have the proper CC tools required to complete it.

One of the biggest differences between group finder and dungeon finder is that you manually have to invite the person and make your way to the dungeon. This might not seem like a big deal, in fact it might seem like a chore, but that extra piece is the difference between a lot of people giving people a chance if they screw up and actually bother to talk to them so they might add each other to their friends list to play more later.

This is something Blizzard themselves (who are the only ones who have access to the actual data) reported, that people started socializing a lot more with each other in mythic dungeon runs than they ever did in the heroic dungeon finder runs when mythic was added back in WoD.

With dungeon finder, if there's someone you dislike you simply hit that vote-to-kick button and boom, seconds later you have someone else standing there. No reason to ever argue with that person you dislike, regardless if they did something wrong or not.

In short, dungeon finder for mythic plus would be a disaster and it is not something anyone actually want part of, if they do they don't realize what it would be like.

[Deleted]

From my point of view, m+ is a fantastic feature. Even though it can be annoying (RNG loot) it feels rewarding and challenging still. Compared to previous expansion's dungeons which got outdated after just a few weeks. Then nobody had any incentive to go there anymore. Now that is a failed game design.

And I just don't get what's wrong with people nowadays. If you think 3 chesting is too stressful? Then don't do it. Nobody is forcing you. I have seen plenty of groups in the groupfinder stating "going slow, 1 chest" or "aiming for 2 chest, chill aproach". Nothing wrong with that. But some seem to think that they are obliged to top tier loot by minimal effort (just like socialism).

And newsflash, if you i.e. want your bis trinket from X dungeon with Y ilvl then EXPECT to put in an effort. And if you can't find a group for it, join a guild and make friends. Show them that you are willing to push the dps/heal/tank by your effort (read guides, get consumables, learn about the dungeon). I promise you that people in the guild will invite you next time to the M+.

[Daffan]

Hi everyone,


What do you guys think about the new Mythic+ Keystone system?

Imo its ONLY good if your in a guild, and your REALLY good friends with 4 other people in the guild, besides that, i think its the worst system at the moment,. Lets say im not in a guild, and want to Pug Mythic+ using the premade system, Then its like the old days where you try to find a group for houres, where you spammed trade chat untill you where lucky to get a group. The reason is because most groups are just boost groups, or the groups that need a DPS, Only need the right classes, so some classes will NEVER get a spot, or they req. a REALLY high item level.

Imo i dont think its fun to just look at a premade system queueing up all the time to just not get a group.

What do you guys think?

So what are you really saying?

You want them to make it really easy so you can do it with any randoms? or what is your solution?