LFR's effort-reward model

[Darknessvamp]

Short answer: lol no

Long Answer: It obviously should not be on par with Mythic Raid quality gear,. If we ignore the consideration of effort for content and why you usually want higher gear, then why on earth would you want higher level gear than what LFR gives out? You're not looking to do higher level raiding content or even getting fully involved with the dungeon Mythic+ system. You've experience the story in the raid (okay I admit sometimes Blizzard fucks up majorly and hides interesting lore bits behind mythic) and you're able to do WQs at a slightly more balanced pace so why would you want higher gear? Of course you want better gear so that your characters power increases but why should LFR runners get the same gear as Mythic raiders for a minor fraction of the effort? They shouldn't. Either do the appropriate content and reap the appropriate awards or move on. Progression is necessary in an rpg so don't expect a free pass for easier content. Just be glad that LFR gear can titanforge up to mythic gear.

[hablix]

My alt is currently 857 without doing a single Mythic or Mythic+ dungeon or Normal/Heroic/Mythic raid. His ONLY sources of gear have been world quests (including weekly world bosses), LFR, random battlegrounds and one (1) piece of crafted gear. I'd say that it is an entirely respectable ilvl for not participating in any premade, organized content.

[Soeroah]

Why are you so against progress? That's the general sense I got from your response.

You want things to stay the same forever.

Sometimes change is warranted

I have quite literally no idea how you got that out of what I said.

[Mendzia]

Organized raiding isn't for everyone. People have things to do irl that can't be not done in favor of a strict raiding schedule.

I will dismiss the insult though.

Good guilds can finish heroic/mythic raids within 2-3hrs. Thats probably shorter than waiting for LFR invites for all parts as DPS.
You can also find guild that just fits your time schedule.

[Saverem]

LFR isn't designed for you to get state of the art loot, it's designed to give people who don't raid the ability to go in and see the zone and fights.

Normal is designed for casual/family guilds. Heroic designed for my serious raiding guilds and Mythic for the top 5% or so.


If you want better loot, join a raiding guild.

- - - Updated - - -

My alt is currently 857 without doing a single Mythic or Mythic+ dungeon or Normal/Heroic/Mythic raid. His ONLY sources of gear have been world quests (including weekly world bosses), LFR, random battlegrounds and one (1) piece of crafted gear. I'd say that it is an entirely respectable ilvl for not participating in any premade, organized content.

Same with my alt. He doesn't even do M+ and is in 852 gear from just WQ and LFR.

[Deleted]

It is simple. The highest difficult Group Content always had the best Items. It has been this way all the way back since the first day WoW launched. If you don't like that the very core concept of WoW, maybe you should look for another MMO that caters to your wants and needs. After all, this is how you should act as an informed customer - only buy a product you want, don't demand that a company should change their product you already bought.

Would recommend Final Fantasy.

[epLe]

LFR isn't designed for you to get state of the art loot, it's designed to give people who don't raid the ability to go in and see the zone and fights.

Normal is designed for casual/family guilds. Heroic designed for my serious raiding guilds and Mythic for the top 5% or so.

No, no and no. This is like the theory you learn at school differ from real life.

As it is now all difficulties are the same set of stairs you climb. They are all available for everyone.
How far you want to repeat killing the same bosses, to get abit further up in the ilvl climb is a personal choice.

Just as a casual LFR slacker I can clear heroic raids every week, and join a mythic raid pug now and then.
Exactly as a Mythic raider keeps clearing lower difficulties for legendaries, AP or titanforged items.

[Flurryfang]

Gear is something which you are suppsed to get, so that you can defeat content, which you could not do before. If you keep yourself to LFR, then you actually don't need the gear, because you are not pushing yourself against content, that is designed for higher item lvl.

I know that increaseing your item lvl is the main progression in WoW and that it matters for both LFR player and hardcore mythic raider, but the normal/heroic/mythic raider gets higher and higher item lvl, because the devs kind of expect these players to keep progressing and that they need gear to defeat bosses. LFR does not have tiers, they are easy and really limited by item lvl since the berzerk timers might aswell not even be there.

So unless they start making difficulty rise in LFR and make a new tier, so that LFR players can actually aim for something to challenge themself, then there is no need to give higher item lvl in LFR. The system is there mainly for non-raiders to SEE raiding content, not compete within it.

[Daffan]

I partake in LFR weekly for the last couple of years and I can't understand where the rest of the players got the idea that LFR is easy.

Most of the time I enter I see people with food, potting and using flasks. We immediately try to organize to the best of our ability and complete the challenges ahead of us. We still wipe a lot. Usually when a player goes afk then it's a instant wipe, how did you even get the idea that 1/3 of the raid can afk ?

It's just not true.

I went in there on my resto druid for the lulz and just stood around on the bosses, maybe toss out (1) efflorescence and a couple wild growths it was that easy, don't even have to heal.

The only time anyone died is when they got locked out of the boss fight or stood inside Il'Gynoth.

epitome of ez pz.

Why would you need said gear if you don't intent to progress in the higher difficults the game offers? Only so that you can kill mobs better in WQ?

They have said it time and time again, LFR is only there so that you can see how the raid looks, how the bosses look, it's like a tour mode. Gear rewards are there only so that people have a reason to keep coming back so we are not stuck with 2h+ queues.

They want loot to not matter but really want the best stuff because it does matter to them personally

Complaints wont end until everyone gets 895 from everything, then a new wave of complaints will come from the same people saying loot and progression doesn't matter anymore and it feels unrewarding.

[nekobaka]

Based on OP why not just remove gear altogether. OP showing bias in only wanting to benefit themselves in their preferred endgame.

[Lochton]

Based on OP why not just remove gear altogether. OP showing bias in only wanting to benefit themselves in their preferred endgame.

Main topic is basically, less interaction, more solo play, and rewards higher for running alone.

[Jastall]

I could try to disprove you and tell you that 20 LFR raiders could group up and clear Mythic.

Unfortunately I have no hard proof besides my own belief so I won't try too hard to discredit you on that.

Because they won't be able to do it. They might not even be able to clear Normal. The difficulty difference between LFR and Mythic is a gulf. That's like telling us a bunch of slightly overweight hikers that do a few hours of walking per two weeks on beaten paths could ''just'' group up and climb Mount Everest tomorrow morning.

Higher difficulty = higher rewards (apart from TF shenanigans). I don't care if you cannot grasp the concept, because thankfully Blizzard does for the most part.

[zaino]

LFR was never intended to be a form of progression

[Redroniksre]

Listen, i am more about casual progression than anything, but the difficulty still has to have a say. I advocated difficult group and solo content to match the raid content, with each rewarding up to the current max. Problem is LFR as it is, is for the most part easy, if it rewarded the best gear, then there would be no reason to do any other content. Now if there was a Heroic version that was queued that just threw a bunch of randos in Heroic EN, then i would say sure, but as it is now? No.

[Sentynel]

LFR gear should be on-par with the top gear from organized raiding.

Haha, good joke is good but this is absolute shit.

[TITAN308]

LFR was never intended to be a form of progression

Nope. It was meant to allow everyone to see story content, fight notable bosses, and get closure on quest / expansion stories.

This just further provides you give the WoW community an inch and they demand a mile.

[Lochton]

Because they won't be able to do it. They might not even be able to clear Normal. The difficulty difference between LFR and Mythic is a gulf. That's like telling us a bunch of slightly overweight hikers that do a few hours of walking per two weeks on beaten paths could ''just'' group up and climb Mount Everest tomorrow morning.

Higher difficulty = higher rewards (apart from TF shenanigans). I don't care if you cannot grasp the concept, because thankfully Blizzard does for the most part.

Not to forget the lack of equipment.

[Hctaz]

What about the increase in difficulty the lack of organization implies?

There is no "increase in difficulty" only a decrease in the difficulty the raid encounters. I've done LFR versions of the fights that I've done in Normal, Heroic, and Mythic this tier. I can sit down and tell you all the reasons why LFR is every bit as much of a joke as these people claim it to be. The answer is simply that the mechanics don't matter at all. They tune the encounters to where organization is not needed. Every time I do LFR we kill Ursoc with a 4 or 5 stack of his debuff that you're only supposed to get ONE of. Even on normal mode you'd die if you took 2 or 3 of his charges in a row. On LFR you don't even come close to dying until you've taken 8 or 9 and that's just silly. The fight is supposed to be based around half of the group taking a charge and then alternating so nobody ever takes a charge with a stack of the debuff already. If they wanted LFR to "be hard" based on disorganization then they would have kept this mechanic nearly in place the same as normal at least. But they didn't. They nerfed it to the ground so that taking 6 or 7 is a joke.

There is no increase in difficulty due to disorganization because Blizzard made sure that organization is 100% not needed.

Also earlier you said that LFR players are "good" and then also claimed that people trying 100% of the time with flasks, food, and pots still meant you wiped sometimes. Let me tell you what that means. It means you aren't good. Not by a long shot. You can clear heroic mode with little to no problem in item level 840 gear as long as you're skilled. Normal takes even less than that and LFR is designed to be cleared by people in 825 gear. 825. If your group is full of LFR heroes and can't kill the boss with their 835s and higher from the warforge system then you suck flat out. You can't dodge mechanics, you can't play your class/spec effectively, and you certainly don't deserve gear based on the minimal amount of effort it takes to learn what the fuck you're actually doing. The saddest part is that there ARE good players out there doing LFR who can't raid on a schedule and none of them complain because they understand what it means to be good at the game. I, myself, last expansion was forced into LFR when I came back near the end. I was, for a few months, an LFR hero. I didn't complain about the gear because I knew that the effort matched the reward.

- - - Updated - - -

I absolutely think you are wrong. I know I can't prove it to you because it's never been done.

Might be something worth my time though, creating a group of LFR only raiders and clearing mythic in a breeze.

Please. Please do this. Record it. I'd love to watch you spend 10 wipes on Nythendra questioning why you aren't getting "Determination" and then quitting after that point. And no, I don't mean players who have raided normal, heroic, or mythic this expansion. I mean you literally are going to find 20 people who have never set foot inside of Normal or higher EN on ANY of their characters at all this expansion. They have zero experience with any difficulty of EN higher than LFR. Go ahead and do it. I'll be waiting. But you won't get past the first boss.

[tikcol]

It means you aren't good. Not by a long shot.

There are bad mythic guilds.

There are bad LFR runs.

[Jastall]

Not to forget the lack of equipment.

Of course, of course. I was assuming that said LFR raiders would find the time and commitment to grind for gear, AP and legendaries that are a big help in EN, and definitely required in ToV. Which is amusing in and of itself since the entire point of LFR is that you don't need preparation, prior knowledge or good gear to succeed, but still.

But the entire notion that LFR raiders could just clear Mythic is completely laughable. The only mechanic you can't ignore in, say, LFR EN is the Eye closing and killing you on the spot (assuming of course that the raid's DPS is bad enough that a 2nd phase is needed in the first place). Whereas Nythendra alone has a couple mechanics that will absolutely ruin your day if you can't obey them, and it only gets worse from there, and EN is considered one of the easier raids in the game's history. I'd just love to see LFR raiders try and take on Mythic Eye or Odyn.