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  1. #581
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3gul8r View Post
    And here the left is at it again putting the blame on something else besides having a complete and utter shit candidate. A double LOSER.

    (WHATS NEXT)>Russians Hacked it!>RECOUNT!>Get rid of the electoral college!>I'm with Her!.

    Keep trying to figure out why your candidate lost. The simple answer is, look at and compare their rallies. Her's were nothing compared to his.
    The CIA, among other intelligence agencies, are 'the left'? Another delusional misled person.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  2. #582
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    The CIA, among other intelligence agencies, are 'the left'? Another delusional misled person.
    The CIA hasn't said anything publicly. This came from so called sources the Washington Post interviewed from a intelligence briefing that has classified information.

    Reminder, Clinton colluded with the Washington Post.

  3. #583
    There is a reason why Trump is getting so many ex-generals in. He is trying to prevent the US military turning against a traitor.

  4. #584
    "“To have the president-elect of the United States simply reject the fact-based narrative that the intelligence community puts together because it conflicts with his a priori assumptions — wow,” said Michael V. Hayden, who was the director of the N.S.A. and later the C.I.A. under President George W. Bush."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/10/us...-gop.html?_r=0

    If Trump has one shred of patriotism, he would stand aside in favor of Mike Pence.'

    Republicans are stepping up to the plate though.

    The Republicans who lead the congressional committees overseeing intelligence, the Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security take the opposite view. They say that Russia was behind the election meddling, but that the scope and intent of the operation need deep investigation, hearings and public reports.

    One question they may want to explore is why the intelligence agencies believe that the Republican networks were compromised while the F.B.I., which leads domestic cyberinvestigations, has apparently told Republicans that it has not seen evidence of that breach. Senior officials say the intelligence agencies’ conclusions are not being widely shared, even with law enforcement.

    “We cannot allow foreign governments to interfere in our democracy,” Representative Michael McCaul, a Texas Republican who is the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee and was considered by Mr. Trump for secretary of Homeland Security, said at the conservative Heritage Foundation. “When they do, we must respond forcefully, publicly and decisively.”

    He has promised hearings, saying the Russian activity was “a call to action,” as has Senator John McCain, one of the few senators left from the Cold War era, when the Republican Party made opposition to the Soviet Union — and later deep suspicion of Russia — the centerpiece of its foreign policy.

    Even one of Mr. Trump’s most enthusiastic supporters, Representative Devin Nunes, a California Republican, said on Friday that he had no doubt about Russia’s culpability. His complaint was with the intelligence agencies, which he said had “repeatedly” failed “to anticipate Putin’s hostile actions,” and with the Obama administration’s lack of a punitive response.

    Mr. Nunes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said that the intelligence agencies had “ignored pleas by numerous Intelligence Committee members to take more forceful action against the Kremlin’s aggression.” He added that the Obama administration had “suddenly awoken to the threat.”
    Nunes is also essentially correct. The Obama Administration is also at fault here. To a degree, they are reaping what they sowed.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2016-12-10 at 06:29 PM.

  5. #585
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    If Trump has one shred of patriotism, he would stand aside in favor of Mike Pence.'
    Are bloody crazy?! Criticize Trump.

    BUT MIKE PENCE as Preisdent?!

    I'd take Hillary Clinton over Mike Pence! I'd take Tim Kaine over Pence, I'd take Bugs Bunny ridding a golden dildo over Mike Pence.

  6. #586
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...omey-wikileaks

    John Dean, the former White House counsel under former president Richard Nixon, described the response as “remarkably inadequate”. Dean called for the intelligence report on Russia’s role to be made available to the 538 members of the electoral college before 19 December, when they formally vote to elect the next president.

    Ummm... this is getting huge.

  7. #587
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    No it's not. it's the left wing media being the attack dog it always has been for Clinton. Besides John Dean ain't exactly some paragon.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Are bloody crazy?! Criticize Trump.

    BUT MIKE PENCE as Preisdent?!
    Mike Pence is far more conservative than I am. Far more. However the Republican ticket also won the election.

    It would be impropper and un-acceptable to hand the election to Hillary Clinton, no matter the outcome of this investigation. Her victory in the popular vote, while meaningful, is not the way we elect Presidents and would rip this country further apart.

    A compromise would be to name Mike Pence as President and have Trump withdraw or be passed over by the electoral college, since Pence was on the ticket. Less acceptable I think would be to have a compromise Republican named President. Whoever that person, the Kremlin's favored choice is unacceptable, and Trump, should he actually get the electoral college votes, between his Popular vote loss and evidence of Russian espionage, would be President in Name Only.

    It is best I think then, that Pence become President. Will that happen? Probably not. But it's a way out.

    The CIA leaked this to he Post. This did not go through the Administration, which has been slow to act. They leaked this to force the issue. This is what institutions do to protect themselves. When Donald Trump tries stunts the institutions he he nominally at the head of will embarass him, just as they did with Obama, Bush and Clinton.

  9. #589
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    The CIA leaked this to he Post. This did not go through the Administration, which has been slow to act. They leaked this to force the issue. This is what institutions do to protect themselves. When Donald Trump tries stunts the institutions he he nominally at the head of will embarass him, just as they did with Obama, Bush and Clinton.
    If you think Trump will back down then no.

    Also Trump is not alone on this. Speaking of institutions the Pentagon has been feuding with the CIA for a long time now over Foreign Policy. The Pentagon has fought tooth and nail against the CIA to adopt a more reasonable realistic foreign policy. You can bet the Pentagon won't be too damned pleased with the CIA over this little stunt.

    Then there's the FBI. You can bet they ain't too damned happy about what's been happening over the last few years.

    Assuming of course the Washington Post ain't lying through their asses. WaPO recently got caught lying on a bunch of stuff.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    No it's not. it's the left wing media being the attack dog it always has been for Clinton. Besides John Dean ain't exactly some paragon.
    It is. Analysis.
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...nd-russia.html

    Make no mistake, yesterday’s Washington Post revelation that the CIA has concluded that Russia was actively trying to elect Donald Trump as opposed to just “meddling with” the election, is a nuclear bombshell. And if the Post piece is Hiroshima, then today’s New York Times story, which adds the detail that Russian actors also hacked email accounts at the Republican National Committee but did not release those publicly as they did Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign emails, is Nagasaki.

    Hyperbole? Think again. A foreign government may have determined the outcome of a presidential election. And not Canada or Costa Rica, but Russia: the United States’ chief historic adversary and an oligarchy ruled by a tyrant who has systematically taken away rights. Bombshells don’t come much bigger.

    Oh, wait; yes they do. On top of all the above, leaders of one of our two political parties—I’ll let you hazard a guess as to which one—argued against letting the American public know about all this before the election, reportedly saying it would be too partisan. That’s not hardball politics. That’s a hair’s breath away from treason.

    So yes, this is major. But let’s catch our breath. We don’t know yet for a fact that these allegations are true. Both stories came from anonymous intelligence community sources, and in all such cases, the sources need to be considered. So the Obama administration and the CIA should put this information out there publicly.

  11. #591
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    Except as I've noted NY Times and WaPO colluded with the Clinton Campaign. So their credibility is sketchy at best.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    If you think Trump will back down then no.

    Also Trump is not alone on this. Speaking of institutions the Pentagon has been feuding with the CIA for a long time now over Foreign Policy. The Pentagon has fought tooth and nail against the CIA to adopt a more reasonable realistic foreign policy. You can bet the Pentagon won't be too damned pleased with the CIA over this little stunt.

    Assuming of course the Washington Post ain't lying through their asses.
    The Pentagon and the CIA are on the same side about the Russian threat and have been for years. Stop making stuff up.

    And here is the best part: Breibart summarizes it:

    http://www.breitbart.com/national-se...-cia-vs-state/

    U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has reportedly made a pact with Russia to establish a ceasefire in Syria, a move that has further aggravated the increasingly deep objections from the Pentagon, CIA, and other government components to cooperating with Russia.
    The primary U.S. goal of the agreement is to put an end to Syrian Dictator Bashar al-Assad’s relentless and indiscriminate fatal attacks, oftentimes targeted at women and children, and to ultimately reach a political agreement to remove Assad’s brutal regime from power, reports the New York Times (NYT).

    The Pentagon, the CIA, the State Department, and even the White House have expressed reservations about the U.S.-Russia agreement.

    The agreement may amount to a sort of belated appeasement to the Assad regime, only the war is already raging. It could also make overdue consequences for crossing the red line over the use of chemical weapons. The Iran/Russian-backed regime considers all opposition forces, including some backed by the United States, to be terrorists.

    Some analysts are concerned that the U.S.-Russian alliance will end up eliminating most of Assad’s enemies, leaving the Syrian dictator to roam the streets with no worries on his mind.

    “I think we have some reasons to be skeptical that the Russians are able or are willing to implement the arrangement consistent with the way it’s been described,” Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary, told reporters Monday, adding in what sounded like a pessimistic tone, “But we’ll see.”

    “In private, he has conceded to aides and friends that he believes it will not work. But he has said he is determined to try, so that he and Mr. Obama do not leave office having failed to alleviate a civil war that has taken roughly half a million lives,” reports NYT, referring to Kerry.
    You are referring to tactical disagreements between the CIA and Pentagon over managazing the Syrian conflict. That's small potatoes compared to this.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/03/op...ssia.html?_r=0
    The Pentagon has put Russia at the top of its list of national security threats with its plan to increase the deployment of heavy weapons, armored vehicles and troops on rotating assignment to NATO countries in Central and Eastern Europe.

    In a speech on Tuesday, Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter listed a hierarchy of threats to the United States, which included China, North Korea, Iran and finally, the fight against terrorism. But his primary focus was Russia.

    While he makes a good case for deterring Russian aggression, his proposal to quadruple military spending in Europe in 2017 to $3.4 billion from $789 million seems excessive and raises questions about whether other immediate threats, like the Islamic State, are getting short shrift.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...top-threat-us/

    ArmyGen. Mark Milley joined other top military brass Tuesday in naming Russia as the top threat the U.S. faces today, as lawmakers questioned the wisdom of cutting an Army base in Alaska.

    “Russia is the only country on earth that contains a nuclear capability that could destroy the United States,” Gen. Milley told members of the Senate Armed Services Committee at a hearing to consider his nomination to serve as the next Army chief of staff. “It’s an existential threat to the United States, so it has capability. Intent, I don’t know; but the activity of Russia since 2008 has been very, very aggressive.”

    Russia invaded the Crimean Peninsula in February 2014, annexing the Ukrainian territory as part of Russia, and have supported ethnic-Russian rebels in the eastern part of its neighbor. Other spheres in which Russians have acted aggressively include their jets approaching other nations’ airspace and buzzing U.S. planes and ships in acts the Pentagon called “provocative and unprofessional.”

    Asked about the military’s ability to operate in Europe amid the growing Russian threat, Gen. Milley said he thought the U.S. military needed to increase ground forces on a temporary rotational basis to provide better deterrence.
    The CIA is on the job!
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...k-attacks.html

    The Central Intelligence Agency reportedly is preparing a major cyber attack against Russia in response to the theft of records from the Democratic National Committee and its affiliates, allegedly by Moscow-backed hackers.

    Vice President Joe Biden told NBC News, which first reported that the Obama administration was considering retaliatory measures, that the U.S. would be "sending a message" to Russian President Vladimir Putin. Biden added that any cyber action would come "at the time of our choosing, and under the circumstances that will have the greatest impact."

    NBC also reported that intelligence officials have been asked to present the White House with ideas for a "clandestine" cyber operation designed to "embarrass" the Kremlin.

    "We've always hesitated to use a lot of stuff we've had, but that's a political decision," a former CIA officer told NBC. "If someone has decided, `We've had enough of the Russians,' there is a lot we can do."

    Donald Trump won't stop shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Except as I've noted NY Times and WaPO colluded with the Clinton Campaign. So their credibility is sketchy at best.
    And yet, knowing this, I just provided Breibart, Fox News and the Washington Times.

    Enjoy your helping.

  13. #593
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    The Pentagon and the CIA are on the same side about the Russian threat and have been for years. Stop making stuff up.
    I think you misunderstand me on this. Yes they are against Russia as they should be, the thing is that they've been trying to do things in different ways to counter Russia.

    My issue with the CIA is that they've been pretty damned stupid in containing Russia, thank Obama here to an extent and the NeoCons running the CIA to a far larger extent.

    You are referring to tactical disagreements between the CIA and Pentagon over managazing the Syrian conflict. That's small potatoes compared to this.
    It's a lot more then that, the Pentagon hasn't been fond at all of intervening in the Middle East, going as far back as Iraq there were many people in there against it.

    The Central Intelligence Agency reportedly is preparing a major cyber attack against Russia in response to the theft of records from the Democratic National Committee and its affiliates, allegedly by Moscow-backed hackers.
    Good, it's been a long time coming for the US to get it's shit together in terms of cyber warfare against both Russia and China. That's the real fight that needs to happen instead of this outrage political crap we're seeing.

    The US public should never, ever hear about the shadow war that's been going for years between the West and Russia...yet now they are. Very dumb.

    Also trying to arm twist Trump publicly after this election? He was already accused of all this publicly during the campaign. The public...does not...care.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2016-12-10 at 06:59 PM.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    I think you misunderstand me on this. Yes they are against Russia as they should be, the thing is that they've been trying to do things in different ways to counter Russia.

    My issue with the CIA is that they've been pretty damned stupid in containing Russia, thank Obama here to an extent and the NeoCons running the CIA to a far larger extent.
    I don't think you quite know what a Neocon is (which is part for the course nowdays). Neocon's have essentially no position regarding Russia or China.

    In any event, the Military is modernizing it's conventional forces and moving to Europe to deter Russia while the CIA is changing its organization to better face off against Russia. They're on the same side. The Pentagon and CIA are not rivals in any sense in the manner you characterized.

    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    It's a lot more then that, the Pentagon hasn't been fond at all of intervening in the Middle East, going as far back as Iraq there were many people in there against it.
    That is true, and the CIA has long been on the same page with that for years. Middle Eastern intrigue has been motivated by elected Civilians. In fact a core part of the CIA re-organization Brennan launched last year was to get it back on point with spying on states like Russia and China, and away from para-military counter-terrorism.

    hey isn't President-elect Trump Mr. "We're going to bomb the shit out of ISIS"? Oh yeah that's right to the extent the US military is operating against them in Syria and Iraq right now, they don't want to go further, lest it harm priorities in Europe, Asia-Pacific and modernization. So in many ways Trump's Syrian adventure would be the latest in a long line of elected officials looking for Middle Eastern dragons to slay!




    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    Good, it's been a long time coming for the US to get it's shit together in terms of cyber warfare against both Russia and China.
    The problem is, many of these weapons are weapons that you can use only once.

    The perennial concern by the US is it would rather shut off Moscow's lights in the event of a military confrontation (or something of that nature), rather than do that to make a point to Vladmir Putin that leads to little more than 3 days of headlines.

  15. #595
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    I don't think you quite know what a Neocon is (which is part for the course nowdays). Neocon's have essentially no position regarding Russia or China.

    In any event, the Military is modernizing it's conventional forces and moving to Europe to deter Russia while the CIA is changing its organization to better face off against Russia. They're on the same side. The Pentagon and CIA are not rivals in any sense in the manner you characterized.
    I'd disagree with this quite a bit. The Pentagon has felt for a while now that the CIA has been operating badly and have let them down on numerous occasions, maybe not quite rivalry but the Pentagon ain't a fan of the CIA right about now and for bloody good reasons.

    Arming Al-Qaeda in Syria was their solution? Seriously?

    So in many ways Trump's Syrian adventure would be the latest in a long line of elected officials looking for Middle Eastern dragons to slay!
    Frankly I very much doubt there will be a Middle Eastern Adventure. By the time Trump is in office Mosul should hopefully have fallen and ISIS will be fighting to survive in Raqqa.

    Trump's most important discussion was with Sisi, who recently sent planes in Syria against ISIS.

    The problem is, many of these weapons are weapons that you can use only once.

    The perennial concern by the US is it would rather shut off Moscow's lights in the event of a military confrontation (or something of that nature), rather than do that to make a point to Vladmir Putin that leads to little more than 3 days of headlines.
    You can't just stand there for years while China steals the plans for the F-35 or trade secrets. Those are some examples. Something has to be done.

  16. #596
    I am curious about what exactly this "election tampering" amounts to.
    Russia's alleged interference, as far as I can determine, was making public either the DNC's or Clinton's campaign's emails. Beyond that, is anything being alleged?

  17. #597
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Russia's alleged interference, as far as I can determine, was making public either the DNC's or Clinton's campaign's emails. Beyond that, is anything being alleged?
    Nothing more then that no and I'd VERY strongly advise the Democrats to stop going after that argument. Political parties and media agencies linked to intelligence services have tried to exactly this same kind of crap for years here and it has only succeeded in getting the pro-Russian parties to an even more powerful position then before.

    Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Greece, Moldova, Hungary, France, Italy are now pro-Russian to one degree or another or soon will be. As a Romanian my country feels pretty damned lonely here when faced with Russia.

    So yes investigate, QUIETLY, pressure Trump, QUIETLY, but don't make this a damned partisan attack by the Democrats cause it will fail and it will only make the Republican party turn against taking on Russia, and the Republicans in case you missed it are far more powerful then the Democrats are right now.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2016-12-10 at 07:15 PM.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Man... the fact you even THINK this is a reality or going to happen.... Islamic Radicalism has beat the ever living shit out of you at a psychological level, hasn't it? Like ISIS and groups like them are not an existential threat to the US. They're small ball. They're few in number and isolated on the other side of the planet, more a problem for the people living there then us.

    What you are describing... the madness of it all... never mind it's, you know, a war crime to do what you say, but it would sap the US of it's power at a very delicate time. Were two inconclusive Muslim world wars not enough for you, you would go for a third?

    Islamists are the US security establishment's hobby. It's job is Russia and China. Any resources you spend into fighting Islamists takes away from fighting state-level threats.
    It's not me that they've beaten the shit out of at a psychological level. Terrorism is inherently not an existential threat to any state that even mildly has its shit together, but as the ability for singular terrorist attacks to damage increases, the damage they deal goes from "annoying but not enough to do something about it" to "annoying enough to do something about it." The Islamists in fact did win the psychological war despite the fact that I'd rather have nothing to do with people who are barely out of 1616, let alone 2016. I think the Islamists misjudges the reaction that the West has to terror: not cowering in fear, but lashing out in anger. In a weird way it's the same old story: Foreign country sees decadent Western power being decadent, thinks one punch will collapse their house of cards, and then 3 years later we're well on our way to killing mid-six digits in Iraq and Afghanistan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The solution is offing Russian scientists and engineers before they hit the free agent market in years ahead and developing anti-missile systems. But this is a major threat that is finally maturing.
    Sure, but I'm going to guess that anti-missile systems are being actively worked on by whichever military R&D agency is supposed to (DARPA? Sounds kind of like a DARPA plan.) There's nothing to really do on this one but wait and see if a missile shield can outpace a missile attack sufficiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    China can build ships, including war ships, much faster than the US can.
    Can China also build sailors who are capable of crewing those ships? Seems less likely that a country that has totally degenerated their naval tradition is going to bounce back into being competent sailors overnight, or even over a decade or three.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by pfbe View Post
    I am curious about what exactly this "election tampering" amounts to.
    Russia's alleged interference, as far as I can determine, was making public either the DNC's or Clinton's campaign's emails. Beyond that, is anything being alleged?
    No, nytimes is twisting it to elude to something more. They just have their panties in a wad cause trump told them to f-off basically. It's a smear campaign. It's just the email and dnc server that occurred before the election. They are just saying that it effected the outcome of the election.

  20. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...omey-wikileaks

    John Dean, the former White House counsel under former president Richard Nixon, described the response as “remarkably inadequate”. Dean called for the intelligence report on Russia’s role to be made available to the 538 members of the electoral college before 19 December, when they formally vote to elect the next president.

    Ummm... this is getting huge.
    Pretty much everything that's been provided so far is just lip service to disinformation. Whether it's politically motivated or not, at this point is irrelevant. Unless things change in 9 days, the only facts they will have is that the DNC intrusion was traced back to a Russian company's server which achieved the intrusion with a complex methodology but not one that is complex or specific enough to confirm it was a russian state actor who perpetrated the attack

    Given that the content released from the intrusion has been found factual to date and that their has been no attempt made by the DNC or alleged victims of the intrusion to come forward with evidence refuting the disclosures, it would be a tough argument to say it was tampering.

    On one hand, you can say the leaks had 'some' influence on the election. How much so is open to debate

    On the other hand, voters deserve to make a judgement based on all the information. The leaks provided information that otherwise would have been with held from voters and is accurate.

    If the electoral college refuses to appoint Trump, expect hell to break loose. It will be a landmark moment in american history

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