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  1. #201
    You say that you "don't favour item level", but the "I always take gear when it is +15" level is the point Blizzard are trying to hit with these changes. That is the mark of favouring items with higher item level :P

    At Blizzcon when they were talking about this patch, their stated intention was that at +5 or +10 you should look at the stats, at +15 it should usually be an upgrade. That's the place we are already in and that most other classes need to be adjusted to reach.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowland View Post
    Losing the 5% crit on Boulderfist is a MUCH bigger nerf than the extra 1.5 seconds on its recharge.

    I wish people hadn't whined about the longer recharge timer. It really wasn't a big deal. At higher gear levels you're generally getting enough Stormbringer procs and have enough other higher-priority abilities to hit that Boulderfist sometimes sits at 2 charges for a GCD or three at a time anyways (basically until you need to refresh the Boulderfist/Landslide buff), and we aren't a resource-starved class so losing a little extra maelstrom with the longer recharge was no big deal.
    Indeed, taking away the 5% crit buff seems way harsh. That alone is 2.5-3% overall dps loss right there. This is a way bigger nerf than the 7.5 cd (which isn't even noticeable once you're geared). Sure people with shit gear felt that change but once nighthold opens and everyone is past a certain ilvl, losing that crit(and less maelstrom per use) is gonna hurt our dps way more than a longer cd ever could.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Gromthak View Post
    Indeed, taking away the 5% crit buff seems way harsh. That alone is 2.5-3% overall dps loss right there. This is a way bigger nerf than the 7.5 cd (which isn't even noticeable once you're geared). Sure people with shit gear felt that change but once nighthold opens and everyone is past a certain ilvl, losing that crit(and less maelstrom per use) is gonna hurt our dps way more than a longer cd ever could.
    We're getting buffed by 10% so that they can nerf the level 15 and 60 talent tiers.
    Hailstorm and Boulderfist were both substantially overperforming compared to their competitors, and it is easier and safer to buff the base shaman kit while nerfing those talents than to make all three options on both rows equally ridiculous.

  4. #204
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    At least we're not Shadow Priests and are force fed Surrender to Madness because of how 'iconic' a four month old ability is and has the level 100 talent row held hostage.
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  5. #205
    Nerfing Fury of Air and Buffing Crashing Storm... Me no likey.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    You say that you "don't favour item level", but the "I always take gear when it is +15" level is the point Blizzard are trying to hit with these changes. That is the mark of favouring items with higher item level :P

    At Blizzcon when they were talking about this patch, their stated intention was that at +5 or +10 you should look at the stats, at +15 it should usually be an upgrade. That's the place we are already in and that most other classes need to be adjusted to reach.
    It's kind of true we currently want +15 ilvl upgrades, but that isn't a good indication that we won't be disproportionately affected by the secondary stat nerf. +15 is usually an upgrade just because we have two secondaries that scale very well (and equally well at that), so odds are good we get at least one of those stats on an armor drop (crit/vers mail is rare, and a +15 ilvl crit/vers piece is a DPS loss against haste/mastery). It also helps that our worst stat, crit, scales decently well too (hell, it has a higher normalized scale factor than the best stat for some specs!). In that regard, we're definitely in a better spot than fire mages or spriests, who need to see their one really good stat on a piece of gear in order for it be an upgrade.

    All this is to say we get a lot of our power from secondaries. Our main DPS mechanic(s) is tied to mastery and synergizes with haste, so losing both mastery and haste in the secondary nerf will hurt, and the increase in agility from gear (i.e., harder hitting Stormstrikes) won't necessarily balance out the loss of Stormbringer procs with everything that is tied to those procs and the additional Stormstrike casts (easily 30% of our overall damage after you factor in Unleash Doom, Wind Strikes, and Stormflurry). The devs stated in a post recently that "while your abilities may happen less frequently, they will hit harder" - I just hope they take into account all the myriad things tied to our mastery and Stormbringer procs. Losing even a 1% chance to proc Stormbringer = 10% fewer Stormbringer procs than on live, more so after you factor in that we're losing haste too. That has significant implications for us.

    But again, theorycrafting speculation on my part. Next time I post on this topic I'll have checked the PTR and will report on the actual numbers I see....

  7. #207
    So people with no Haste were bitching about the changes to Boulderfist that didn't matter at all, and now we lose 5% crit. Thanks. You had to be basically a fresh dinged 110 for that change to matter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    At least we're not Shadow Priests and are force fed Surrender to Madness because of how 'iconic' a four month old ability is and has the level 100 talent row held hostage.
    Well, if you want to put it that way, all of our talents hold every row hostage. We have one of the most forced talent setups in the game. It's still fun though, like Spriests will continue to be.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    I'm honestly scared that we might get more nerfs than necessary considering that most of our power is already there, we're not getting much from 2p and 4p bonuses, and we skyrocketed ONLY because of our interaction with the Spontaneous Appendages. When this trinket gets removed from the must-have we might end up on the lower part of the dps chain..

  9. #209
    Deleted
    Boulderfist need to be base ability: so hot hand, windsong and Advanced boulderfist(3% crit and 3% dmg) should be viable all three. (3% instead to 5% cause of balance)

  10. #210
    So the actuall build, still the best?

  11. #211
    Does anyone actually like using rockbiter?

    I agree that boulderfist should have just been baseline in the first place and that rockbiter should have never existed.

  12. #212
    If you like playing with Boulderfist you'll probably like playing with Rockbiter.
    If the last time you tried Rockbiter was before they buffed Windfury's maelstrom generation, well... the playstyle is pretty much identical to Boulderfist now.

    There's no downtime in either of them. In both of them, you either only hit the button to refresh Landslide or when everything else is on cooldown. They're the same.
    The only real difference is that Rockbiter's icon isn't as good.

  13. #213
    Pandaren Monk MisterBigglez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emophia View Post
    Does anyone actually like using rockbiter?

    I agree that boulderfist should have just been baseline in the first place and that rockbiter should have never existed.
    I have played with both on the PTR and its honestly not that bad. I get the feeling people just hate it because they are used to using Boulderfist that much that they will not accept a different spell in its place. I don't know how it feels with low haste but I have 17% haste and I probably use Rockbiter just a little more than Boulderfist.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Macewindfury View Post
    I have played with both on the PTR and its honestly not that bad. I get the feeling people just hate it because they are used to using Boulderfist that much that they will not accept a different spell in its place. I don't know how it feels with low haste but I have 17% haste and I probably use Rockbiter just a little more than Boulderfist.
    This is my question of the top of my head.

    With Boulderfist being nerfed (crit component being removed) and Rockbiter MS generation increased by 33% (from 15 to 20) isnt Hot Hand actually preferred choice in that row taking in concern current t19 4p bonus (Lava Lash has a 20% chance to trigger Stormbringer)?

    I see far better synergy with Hot Hand than with Boulderfist tbh. FreeLava Lashes mean more Lava Lashes, more Lava Lashes mean more Stormbringer, more Stormbringer means more T19P2 (Stormbringer also increases the critical strike chance of Stormstrike by 40%) empowered Stormstrikes.

    On other hand this could spiral spec to be less consistent and far more spammy and proc orientated. Might as well end up as MoP retri paladins, when your whole action bar simply lit up since everything procced at exact same point
    Last edited by Gurg; 2016-12-11 at 05:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    It's not nerfed unless it's live.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    This is my question of the top of my head.

    With Boulderfist being nerfed (crit component being removed) and Rockbiter MS generation increased by 33% (from 15 to 20) isnt Hot Hand actually preferred choice in that row taking in concern current t19 4p bonus (Lava Lash has a 20% chance to trigger Stormbringer)?

    I see far better synergy with Hot Hand than with Boulderfist tbh. FreeLava Lashes mean more Lava Lashes, more Lava Lashes mean more Stormbringer, more Stormbringer means more T19P2 (Stormbringer also increases the critical strike chance of Stormstrike by 40%) empowered Stormstrikes.

    On other hand this could spiral spec to be less consistent and far more spammy and proc orientated. Might as well end up as MoP retri paladins, when your whole action bar simply lit up since everything procced at exact same point
    Hot Hand still isn't really an option unless you have the legendary.

  16. #216
    Really? Even with t19 4p bonus? Looked to me like a good choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyanmaru View Post
    It's not nerfed unless it's live.

  17. #217
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Hot Hand still isn't really an option unless you have the legendary.
    Well it's not that bad.

    Hot Hand is absolutely viable.

    What definitely happened is a 5% dps nerf on PTR so far (and others actually gained dps on PTR so far, like rogues). So we're weaker than on live servers.
    Last edited by mmoc4ec7d51a68; 2016-12-21 at 12:02 AM.

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