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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wythel View Post
    Left wing will loose at first round cause they're dumb enough to send 3 major candidates :

    - Macron, thinks he's is too smart for humanity, said f*** to primary
    - Melenchon is the only vague remain of communism, has also an ago the size of Paris, would kill instead of competing in primary
    - Valls, who has best chances of winning primary, but no one respects this pale copy of Sarkozy


    So unless 2 of those find brain or balls to say "No, I can win, I support X", the story is already written : Fillon + Le Pen at 2nd turn, Fillon wins.
    Even if two of them concede, the story is written exactly as you predict it. And the very unlikely event of a lefty reaching the second round after four years with the current clown, would only be good news for Le Pen. Similarly to the recent election in Austria, I think she would still lose to a left candidate, but it would be a lot closer.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    /!\ this post contains socialism and basic human decency. a safe space may be reached at breitbart.com in case of emergency


    What if you took the alt right meme magic propaganda style and mixed it with left ideology ?

    Meet french presidential candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon, whose youtube channel has gained a lot of popularity recently due to his newfound acquaintances with video game forum JeuxVideos.com (think of it as a blend between mmo-champ and 4chan).

    It seems like he is intentionally riding the anti-media/anti-system wave and has directly interacted with this community several times.

    It would take me forever to accurately describe what is going on but it seems like that website is giving birth to the left-wing version of the alt-right movement.

    They have chosen their Pepe, in the person of Risitas (spanish laughing guy) and are copypasting every possible version of alt right memes.

    Some mainstream medias have been quoting "can't stenchon the melenchon" (can't stump the Trump), a /r/Le_JeanLuc (/r/The_Donald) has been created, youtube parody videos are surfacing (debate with Marine Le Pen /watch?v=brGvYwbuXSc).

    Jean-Luc Melenchon is widely recognized to be one of the best political debaters and has a lot of similarities with Donald Trump when it comes to anti-system rhetoric and relations with journalists.

    But that ends here, because if you thought Berne Sanders was a socialist, here's a few of JLM's propositions :

    - 100% tax on all income after 400.000 /year
    - taxation of citizens abroad (i.e. fiscal exilees)
    - impossibility to earn more than 20 times than the lowest paid employee
    -possibility to revocate elected officials by vote
    - write a new referendum-approved constitution centered on ecology, democracy and worker's rights


    There is a strong anti establishment sentiment in France after president Francois Hollande's (Parti Socialiste)neo liberal policies and the emergence of a threatening conservative right (Le Pen/Fillon), leaving the door open for fringe candidates.

    Keep in mind this is all relatively recent and a lot of it is personnal interpretation but i can't wait to see how this will turn out
    Pff very left or right both are bad.

    But lets talk about the propositions:

    - 100% tax.... Nope they work hard and have sometimes allot of cost and risk ( self employed means no retirement fund). BUT less loop holes etc would be nice.
    - abroad tax... Kinda both way's. Either there or in france they should pay taxes. But if they get wellfare or something like that abroad...then you should also get taxes abroad. So no money from the people of france goes your way. Then no taxes ( if you allready pay them over there)
    - 20 times more....yes and no again. I do not care if they earn 100 more. BUT if there is any money in the company from the people of france ( aka goverment) for anything ( so supported by government) then the rule should apply. And it should also apply to social stuff like house cooperation etc.
    - revocate....NOPE. If you maid the mistake to elect someone live with it ( looking at you america). otherwise you be busy relecting them all the time.
    - Referendum.....NOPE. People are stupid now aday. They believe everything on the news or on 1 single website and do not research anything. They are ill informed. and you want to give them power to select what is right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    alt-left?

    you mean communism?
    Lol looking at your pic and lol..........


    But nope . left goes from center to outer left:

    worker party's

    Green party's ( nature party's. mostly a blend of a worker/commie party)

    Commie party's ( want more equal stuff )

    Animal party's ( for animal rights everyone needs to become vegan typs)

    Ultra commie hippy party ( party then think like old fashion commie's)

  3. #103
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PvPHeroLulz View Post
    In response to the 100% Taxation proposition:

    So, what's the reasoning behind trying to stop a economically powerful entity, again?
    building one that doesnt prey on human suffering to exist

  4. #104
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    While i am french and don't necessarely subscribe to melenchon's idea, i have nonetheless been born and raise in France with a main motto

    Liberté, égalité, fraternité (Freedom, equality, brotherhood)

    While liberty and equality needs no explanation, fraternity may need a deeper explanation. I believe that in a just society, the stronger should protect the weaker. Since in a capitalism world, protection means money, i believe the richest should be taxed more than the poorest.

    Concretely, that means that the poorest should be exempt of tax, the middle class have a reasonable tax (like 15% for sake of example) and the richest be taxed higher (like 30-50% depending if income).

    I believe in a society that take care of its own. I believe the government should be the modern robin hood.
    Last edited by Vankrys; 2016-12-11 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    But that ends here, because if you thought Berne Sanders was a socialist, here's a few of JLM's propositions :

    - 100% tax on all income after 400.000 /year
    - taxation of citizens abroad (i.e. fiscal exilees)
    - impossibility to earn more than 20 times than the lowest paid employee
    -possibility to revocate elected officials by vote
    - write a new referendum-approved constitution centered on ecology, democracy and worker's rights


    There is a strong anti establishment sentiment in France after president Francois Hollande's (Parti Socialiste)neo liberal policies and the emergence of a threatening conservative right (Le Pen/Fillon), leaving the door open for fringe candidates.

    Keep in mind this is all relatively recent and a lot of it is personnal interpretation but i can't wait to see how this will turn out
    I wish you had posted this focusing on his propositions.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    What 'point' is that? That western values are apparently a thin veneer and despite all the advances in education and information the majority of people remain, at their core, stupid? If the west descends into a patchwork of nationalist, protectionist states run by demagogues then there fundamentally isn't anything worth protecting or being interested in maintaining.

    But hey, as long as the working class gets their digs in at globalisation, right?
    Western values are very much intact. You just seem to be out of touch with what those values are. Hint: being a condescending asshole to everyone that disagrees with you isn't one of them.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    i don't think there is such a thing as "western values"

    if you do not excite them with organized religion or intentional political divide, human beings are pretty peaceful

    you will never efficiently enforce a specific set of values upon all of your people, but you can prevent others to do so by education and social justice

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    i don't think there is such a thing as "western values"

    if you do not excite them with organized religion or intentional political divide, human beings are pretty peaceful

    you will never efficiently enforce a specific set of values upon all of your people, but you can prevent others to do so by education and social justice
    Noone created organized religion and "intentional political divide" from nothing just to have some fun. That's what emerges naturally from normal human behaviour and it has always existed.

    Maybe some day you'll understand that different people can have radically different points of view and that anything that is good for someone can be detrimental to someone else.

  9. #109
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Authary View Post
    Maybe some day you'll understand that different people can have radically different points of view and that anything that is good for someone can be detrimental to someone else.
    maybe some day you'll make rational arguments instead of the usual clichés and ad hominem ?

    if you live in an environment that promotes hatred and divide toward some group of people, you will adapt and conform to what you have been told.

    when you take a look at the communities that are the least exposed to media, organized religion and politics you will always find they are the most peaceful beings on earth.


    you think human beings have an innate tendency to be bad and violently reject the idea that somehow it could just be the result of centuries of instrumentalization by the elites.
    it is really a sad view of humanity
    Last edited by mmocab05265050; 2016-12-11 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #110
    Deleted
    This is why we shouldn't be chained to a socialist nightmare like France in a single Union with the same currency.

  11. #111
    Melenchon, like Macron, don't care about people, and even less about France, trust me, i am french, i see them; Melanchon, like Macro, only seek to build their own legend, based on their own cult.
    Macro is the biggest joke in the country political history since 20 years: he was part of the Hollande governement, who is considered by almost everyone as the worst governement, and the worst president since the birth of the French Republic (1792), he was economy minister for 2 years, and yet, his actions were, hum...Nothing, absolutly nothing.
    Oh no, i forgot: he made possible car travels between cities, like your Greyhound busses, but in fact, this niche is already collapsing and the railway is suffering from that concurrence, so in fact, is a 0 effect on the economy.
    Macron, like Melenchon, are only speaking to look at themselves, they are drinking their own worlds, both of them are men with huge ego, who think they are better than everyone.

    Don't be fooled by Melenchon promises, they are impossible to concretize, and if they were possible, all the rich people would run off France, the economy would so much collapse than subprime crisis in 2008 would be a pleasant fairytale in comparaison.
    Do not be fooled by Melenchon "social" words, like "we are for 9 millions of poor", that is NOT TRUE, Melenchon, like Besançenot, like Poutou, like Martinez (leader of the most toxic syndicate in France, the CGT), are only fueled by their hatred toward riches, they share a bolchevik vision of the world, were people should not raise themselves, but a world were riches and powerfull should be overturn and being ripped off their wealth, BECAUSE they are riches, and not them.

    Melenchon is a man fueled only by hate, envy and self-centered. That man did encourage syndicalists violence against police, against everyone who is rich and powerfull, his place should be in prison, not in the political scene.

    Macron is like i said, a joke, he didn't do a single thing while he was minister, and yet, he tries to convince us he will do something? Joke, joke, and again joke.

  12. #112
    it shouldn't be a 100% tax. but the rich should be taxed into low-rich or middle class station at least.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    maybe some day you'll make rational arguments instead of the usual clichés and ad hominem ?

    if you live in an environment that promotes hatred and divide toward some group of people, you will adapt and conform to what you have been told.

    when you take a look at the communities that are the least exposed to media, organized religion and politics you will always find they are the most peaceful beings on earth.


    you think human beings have an innate tendency to be bad and violently reject the idea that somehow it could just be the result of centuries of instrumentalization by the elites.
    it is really a sad view of humanity
    I'm really sorry you took it for an ad hominem attack, it isn't. Neither it is a cliché. Just considering your last post (+ this one), you seem to believe that there is one objectively best behaviour / set of values that could be taught and that "elites" or whatever other groups are actively teaching the opposite. Of course, you and people who agree with your views share the good values and those who disagree are either the enemy or just uneducated (= stupid ?) and/or manipulated/instrumentalized without knowing it (= stupid + pitiable ?), right ?

    Well, I suppose I share some of your values so please don't see me as an enemy but I won't pretend there is an objectively best worldview. People do, will do and have always done what they deemed best for themselves (even though noone is really smart enough to know exactly what it is) and this best can vary wildly even inside a single country the size of France. "Rich" people will not want a 100% tax and that's normal. "Poor" people will want it and that's normal (and jealousy, which is ugly). Now, for example, some will analyze the immigration and conclude it should be controlled. Others will analyze it and conclude it shouldn't. Those are views and views are opinions because they're not mathematically proven. Ultimately, all views are wrong because everything that is an opinion is, fundamentally, wrong.

    As for your "most peaceful beings on earth" sentence, I'll just point out... uh... the entirety of human history, even before the invention of media, organized religion and politics ? Medias are people doing business. This means they're created by people and do whatever people want them to do because that's what gets them money. Medias can't control people if people don't watch them. Yes, that means most people want to be lied to because it's comforting. Organized religion is just religion, something that emerges naturally in humans, that is organized (organizing things is another normal human behaviour). Politics are what we are as social beings.

    Finally, that "instrumentalization by the elites" line is just cringe-worthy. I know it's a classic but noone is smart enough to manipulate entire populations over centuries. At best, the most cunning are able to gain personal profit from natural human behaviour for a while but that's it.

  14. #114
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    Those who follow Kek are not right or left wing. They are about chaos. They will switch sides for lulz and keks.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authary View Post
    Finally, that "instrumentalization by the elites" line is just cringe-worthy. I know it's a classic but noone is smart enough to manipulate entire populations over centuries. At best, the most cunning are able to gain personal profit from natural human behaviour for a while but that's it.
    first example that comes to mind is vatican. can you deny that the catholic church has been shaping a considerable part of history ? from the crusades to conversion of latin america, here you have a group of people that has basically instrumentalized religion to dictate their worldview.
    i know the world "elites" often comes with assumptions of crackpot conspiracy theories but it shouldnt make us blind to the fact that they do exist.

    human beings are "programmables", they react and adapt to their environment

    if you're raised in a dangerous environment you will become a dangerous person in order to defend yourself. in the absence of immediate danger, with your basic maslow needs fulfilled and education provided, what has been called "western values" emerges as a natural consequence

    i'm not in favor of ideology politics (i.e. we should tax the riche BECAUSE they are rich, which is not what has been said) i just look at the facts of environmental destruction and rising inequalities, which are a direct product of unrestrained capitalism and a culture of greed

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    first example that comes to mind is vatican. can you deny that the catholic church has been shaping a considerable part of history ? from the crusades to conversion of latin america, here you have a group of people that has basically instrumentalized religion to dictate their worldview.
    i know the world "elites" often comes with assumptions of crackpot conspiracy theories but it shouldnt make us blind to the fact that they do exist.

    human beings are "programmables", they react and adapt to their environment

    if you're raised in a dangerous environment you will become a dangerous person in order to defend yourself. in the absence of immediate danger, with your basic maslow needs fulfilled and education provided, what has been called "western values" emerges as a natural consequence

    i'm not in favor of ideology politics (i.e. we should tax the riche BECAUSE they are rich, which is not what has been said) i just look at the facts of environmental destruction and rising inequalities, which are a direct product of unrestrained capitalism and a culture of greed
    The catholic church ? Sure, at any given point in time they have been a group of people with an opinion that they were telling other people was the best. Some believed it and started sharing their views. Then they started fighting with other groups with different opinions through various means. That's what happens naturally all the time at all levels, from continents to families.

    You may be right in saying that human beings aren't aggressive in the absence of perceived danger (and that's debatable). I'm saying there's always perceived danger. It's nearly impossible to find even two people with the exact same views so, in any society, people will argue. Even you, in this thread, are attacking "the other side" because you perceive them as a threat to whatever your worldview is.

    You might not even realize it but you're applying arbitrary values to things with no rationale behind them. Are those "rising inequalities" bad ? For you, subjectively ? For everyone, objectively ? Why are they bad ? Would not having inequalities even be better ? Why ? Can you prove it ? Even environmental destruction, which could be argued to be bad for most people quite easily, has proponents.

  17. #117
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Authary View Post
    You might not even realize it but you're applying arbitrary values to things with no rationale behind them. Are those "rising inequalities" bad ? For you, subjectively ? For everyone, objectively ? Why are they bad ? Would not having inequalities even be better ? Why ? Can you prove it ? Even environmental destruction, which could be argued to be bad for most people quite easily, has proponents.
    human suffering is objectively bad. the only ones who could defend the merits of poverty and starvation are the ones who are not subjected to them and those who benefit from them.

    It is time to stop argue about the poisonous idea that rich people are somehow courageous beings of light and virtue that deserve everything they've got because "hard work".
    Asbolute equality can't be achieved and is not desirable. I'm all for the right of individuals to become rich, but it can't come at the expense of an exploited working class and the environment.

    Why do you NEED to have millions ? Is there never a point where you can say "enough is enough" ? I was one of those persons who praised Elon Musk for what he's doing but when you think about it it's just crazy that we have to wait for benevolent rich messiahs to begin the work humanity should do as a whole.

    Lets say that 100% tax was implemented for people earning above 400.000 a year to fund public services. Would they suffer ? Do you honestly know anyone that would suffer from making 'only' 400.000 euros per year ?
    Even if they genuinely did, you prejudiced 1% of the population to provide millions with clean air, healthcare, education, social services ? i think it's a damn good bargain
    Last edited by mmocab05265050; 2016-12-11 at 02:27 PM.

  18. #118
    Deleted
    Is there even a specific alt-left? Based on my experience, almost every mainstream leftist turns out to be a stalinist-grade whacko once you scratch the surface from the right places. You get to see their true nature every time lefties lose a democratic election. There are only a handful of voices who are capable of objective self-criticism.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Alt-right and alt-left both are idiotic and dangerous. Both come up with childish ideas and think their way is the only way.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurata View Post
    human suffering is objectively bad. the only ones who could defend the merits of poverty and starvation are the ones who are not subjected to them and those who benefit from them.

    It is time to stop argue about the poisonous idea that rich people are somehow courageous beings of light and virtue that deserve everything they've got because "hard work".
    Asbolute equality can't be achieved and is not desirable. I'm all for the right of individuals to become rich, but it can't come at the expense of an exploited working class and the environment.

    Why do you NEED to have millions ? Is there never a point where you can say "enough is enough" ? I was one of those persons who praised Elon Musk for what he's doing but when you think about it it's just crazy that we have to wait for benevolent rich messiahs to begin the work humanity should do as a whole.

    Lets say that 100% tax was implemented for people earning above 400.000 a year to fund public services. Would they suffer ? Do you honestly know anyone that would suffer from making 'only' 400.000 euros per year ?
    Even if they genuinely did, you prejudiced 1% of the population to provide millions with clean air, healthcare, education, social services ? i think it's a damn good bargain
    Policies have consequences. Taking everything from those who earn more than 400k doesn't result in "the rich are less rich and everything else is business as usual". You have to do things to get that much money. They won't magically decide to keep earning more than 400k just to get taxed. You know those poor workers who get exploited so that their evil boss can get 5M ? Well, what happens when the evil boss doesn't need more than 400k anymore ? He doesn't need the poor workers either. That's a bit of a caricature but this proposition is too.

    Will those consequencecs be worse long term ?

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