Sub advice

[shinji2009]

Hey guys so i have made the switch to sub and i have been seeig just really low number even when getting the roght rotation down. During pur raid last night i was sitting at around the bottom where as as sin i am usually top 3 now i k ow its bc sub hits like a wet noodle unless you have the sub boots; however i am hearing people that have arpundthe same ilvl as me that play sub and can see high number dps wise. What am i doing wrong is it my gear ? Here is a link to my armory. I am also following the icy veins guide since it looks like stjern quit updatig his google doc guide and been playing his demon hunter more.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Shinji/simple

[Spiritvs]

I'm not an expert but.. your Mastery value seems realy low...
What numbers are u pullin?

[shinji2009]

I'm not an expert but.. your Mastery value seems realy low...
What numbers are u pullin?

I am doing about 180-230 dps on the target dummy sometimes I can pull around 250 but normally im around the 200k mark. when using icy viens they are suggesting I use versa gems however amr and shadowcraft are saying I should use mastery. is shadowcraft even worth using now days? i mean i used to use it all the time during cata.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

When I was pretty low in sub dps, half the battle is really.. Are you wasting energy or CP? Sub has so many unpredictable things (granted you took weaponmaster which you should) that give you a surge of CP/energy. When I consciously made the decision to not try to get the 6 CP of deeper strat and use it as a safety blanket/warning. Try to finisher at 5 at all times. Maybe a shadow technique will give you the 6, maybe a weapon master could proc your backstab to 6, but always just cut your losses and use your finisher at 5.

I could be wrong but I felt that my dps increased with that mind set.

[kilua]

u need higher item lvl to do more dmg dps for a sub rogue your mastery is ok but your crit is too low and your haste is too high i dont know about versi but u need akari soul and dont know at icy veins and other website u can ask some pro player there is a twitch streamer that play sub rogue

[shinji2009]

When I was pretty low in sub dps, half the battle is really.. Are you wasting energy or CP? Sub has so many unpredictable things (granted you took weaponmaster which you should) that give you a surge of CP/energy. When I consciously made the decision to not try to get the 6 CP of deeper strat and use it as a safety blanket/warning. Try to finisher at 5 at all times. Maybe a shadow technique will give you the 6, maybe a weapon master could proc your backstab to 6, but always just cut your losses and use your finisher at 5.

I could be wrong but I felt that my dps increased with that mind set.

I always use a finisher at 5 if I can get 6 then awesome otherwise I am always using it at 5. Should I need to change my gems up or is my ilvl just too low. I just swear I have heard from people that have 860+ ilvl wih no legend boots doing decent dps however I am constantly being at the bottom during raids. I recently switched from sin (being top of the charts) bc I was bored of it. I am almost always researching the rotation to make sure I have it down pact.

- - - Updated - - -

I am just looking for help to increase my dps as sub.

[Zoulis]

Inside stealth always go for the 5+ rule. Outside of stealth I like backstabbing for the 6th. If I can play ignoring ST I'll do that as much as possible.
Now generally, you want mastery > vers>= crit >>>> haste.
Personally I always had vers gems, just cause the dps difference is minimal but vers is better for otl.
Now aside from gearing issues I can't really help w/o seeing some logs.
Some frequent mistakes are:
1) Not using dance optimally, perfect dance is at 1 cp and 55+ energy, you can get away with 2cp and 55+ energy.
2) Nightblade juggling, if you have Finality up you want to NB as soon as you can after you hit the pandemic window. And when you have a FN:Nightblade on the boss, you want to let it run out before you reapply, or well atleast as close to 0 as possible.

[shinji2009]

Inside stealth always go for the 5+ rule. Outside of stealth I like backstabbing for the 6th. If I can play ignoring ST I'll do that as much as possible.
Now generally, you want mastery > vers>= crit >>>> haste.
Personally I always had vers gems, just cause the dps difference is minimal but vers is better for otl.
Now aside from gearing issues I can't really help w/o seeing some logs.
Some frequent mistakes are:
1) Not using dance optimally, perfect dance is at 1 cp and 55+ energy, you can get away with 2cp and 55+ energy.
2) Nightblade juggling, if you have Finality up you want to NB as soon as you can after you hit the pandemic window. And when you have a FN:Nightblade on the boss, you want to let it run out before you reapply, or well atleast as close to 0 as possible.

think I would need to change my enchant and gems?

[Zoulis]

Well it depends on what you want to play as "main" specc doesn't it? :P there's no reason to change from crit if you're gonna main sass

[shinji2009]

Well it depends on what you want to play as "main" specc doesn't it? :P there's no reason to change from crit if you're gonna main sass

I went back to sin bc the numbers just werent there as sub.

[elfporn]

think I would need to change my enchant and gems?

As sub when i went up over 50% crit, crit value dropped below haste. You want to hover between 40-45% crit to keep it roughly equal to haste (with EoC).

As for actually switching from sin to sub, my recommendation is to set loot spec to sub, get the artifact almost full, and get to 880+ ilvl.

At the AK we're at now that's not too tough to do, probably will take a couple weeks. From there it's just a matter of legendaries.

As a sub rogue i'm second only to my fellow rogue in ST dps - he has boots+ring and i have belt+ring. I beat him until about 1.5minutes in, and then he starts taking off as i have to begin maintaining charges instead of draining them dry. As an example, at the end of MCenarius he's usually 20mil+ ahead of everyone, with me second.

- - - Updated - - -

Inside stealth always go for the 5+ rule. Outside of stealth I like backstabbing for the 6th. If I can play ignoring ST I'll do that as much as possible.
Now generally, you want mastery > vers>= crit >>>> haste.
Personally I always had vers gems, just cause the dps difference is minimal but vers is better for otl.
Now aside from gearing issues I can't really help w/o seeing some logs.
Some frequent mistakes are:
1) Not using dance optimally, perfect dance is at 1 cp and 55+ energy, you can get away with 2cp and 55+ energy.
2) Nightblade juggling, if you have Finality up you want to NB as soon as you can after you hit the pandemic window. And when you have a FN:Nightblade on the boss, you want to let it run out before you reapply, or well atleast as close to 0 as possible.

This is pretty much correct, except for the point where crit becomes our least valuable stat. Prioritize mastery heavy gear, whether it's got haste/crit/vers as the other stat. Gem and enchant vers.

Oh and you should dance at 65(70 with energy increasing neck) and no less/more. With boots you can go down to 50 easily.

[lolpve]

870 sub is capable of 350-400k+ sustained on a dummy without boots or ring, there's nothing wrong with sub it's you.

The main decider in your dps is how tight your dance rotation is, since it's not really a cooldown-heavy spec. You should be getting 4 strikes and a finisher in every dance and using vanish and sprint for extra dps.

[elfporn]

870 sub is capable of 350-400k+ sustained on a dummy without boots or ring, there's nothing wrong with sub it's you.

The main decider in your dps is how tight your dance rotation is, since it's not really a cooldown-heavy spec. You should be getting 4 strikes and a finisher in every dance and using vanish and sprint for extra dps.

You're right of course - i personally started swapping around 850, mixing outlaw and sub depending on the fight, kept doing this until sub was the clear winner in every situation. But most people want to step in at a higher dps point, so i tell them 880+.

[shinji2009]

You're right of course - i personally started swapping around 850, mixing outlaw and sub depending on the fight, kept doing this until sub was the clear winner in every situation. But most people want to step in at a higher dps point, so i tell them 880+.

I was doing like 300k bursts and then I would fall and average out at about 230k with my ilvl of i867. if you check out my armory I would use the same gear I would just change out the enchants and gems. my sub weapons are at 883 ilvl.

[elfporn]

I was doing like 300k bursts and then I would fall and average out at about 230k with my ilvl of i867. if you check out my armory I would use the same gear I would just change out the enchants and gems. my sub weapons are at 883 ilvl.

As comparison, i burst up between 600/700k and settle between 400 and 500k, depending on fight mechanics, occasionally lower.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

I'm lanre, i run ring/belt, and the other rogue runs ring/boots. I ranked 1140 world on the above fight. The other rogue should be ranked 308, but he's not there for some reason.

It's much easier to do higher ST dps with assassination(as logs/rankings show). With the boots, a good gear setup, and a tight rotation, you can beat assassination in nearly all situations. And that gap will only widen as gear gets better.

[twils55]

As comparison, i burst up between 600/700k and settle between 400 and 500k, depending on fight mechanics, occasionally lower.
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I'm lanre, i run ring/belt, and the other rogue runs ring/boots. I ranked 1140 world on the above fight. The other rogue should be ranked 308, but he's not there for some reason.

It's much easier to do higher ST dps with assassination(as logs/rankings show). With the boots, a good gear setup, and a tight rotation, you can beat assassination in nearly all situations. And that gap will only widen as gear gets better.

That's all well and true but mutilate performs on average better than sub rogues. It is a simple and forgiving spec if you screw up where sub can be very punishing if do or get bad rng on energetic stabbing.