The alt-left is taking shape in France [trigger warning]

[Nefarious Tea]

alt-left?

you mean communism?

This made me giggle since I literally just taught my Civics class left vs right wing ideologies on Friday.

You're not wrong but I think in this case it means a militant stance on left-wing issues (if you look at the guy's ideas as outlined in the thread it's largely huge taxation/limiting of upper echelons of wealth).

[Deleted]

yes keep believing what fox news told you

you know why france and (most of europe) has affordable healthcare,childcare, paid holidays, maternity leave, social security, consumers rights and you don't ?

because of the socialists

ever heard of may 68 ?

when the minimum salary increased by 35%, trade union representation, improvement of worker's rights and so on


there is only one country where people use "socialism" as a bad word (hint: its jesusland)


also i find it hilarious that you are using cuba as exemples. its not like you put an embargo and attempted invasion / assasination on their leader multiple times

here's a bonus for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

You dont get it, do you? People want to be left alone to pursue their own happiness, doesnt matter if its wealth or a happy family. Communism and socialism and all those backwards ideologies only "Sell" because of mass brainwashing. Media telling people that they are not happy because X person has Y, leaving out the parts like why or what did they do to get that.

This creates a false sense of entitlement like hey, I worked really hard and graduated from gender studies, why do I have to flip burgers and am not making 6 millions a week like this person! Again, youre missing my point which is No one wants to work for you! If you force them, people opt for the common lowest denominator which is being the leeching commie garbage like the rest, resulting in a failed society. Just let everyone pursue their dreams, whats wrong with that?

[Deleted]

well you'll have to measure that investment by how their careers pan out. going to school is nice but the point is to teach and train kids, not just to pay whatever the school wants tuition to be that year.

it's not about being lazy, it's about how people evaluate problems and their place in their community. we know it doesn't work to attempt to give everyone the same quality of life across the board, and we know people who see themselves as "poor" (even among the top 1%) will stress out about money. the really complicated conversation is about whether or not we trust government to actually help some or all of the population effectively. the vast majority of wealthy people take on this responsibility personally in one way or another and still pay large sums in taxes. i understand the idea of money being distributed more evenly makes sense, but if society as a whole was interested in quality of life for all, they'd think about the services and needs directly rather than imagining convincing ways to steal someone elses money.

education is a tax funded constitutionnal right in france, so the tuition fees are affordable (less than 200$) and free if you have a study grant, which are intended to pay the housing and food of students.
we do not make profits on those who wish to better themselves

as for the public services part what do you think that tax proposal is for ? there is no commie conspiracy plan to overthrow the bourgeoisie, it is just supposed to adress the problems globalisation has created.

populations goes up, jobs goes down for various reason, there is a point where the capitalist model cannot function anymore even if it did ok for a time

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You dont get it, do you? People want to be left alone to pursue their own happiness, doesnt matter if its wealth or a happy family. Communism and socialism and all those backwards ideologies only "Sell" because of mass brainwashing. Media telling people that they are not happy because X person has Y, leaving out the parts like why or what did they do to get that.

This creates a false sense of entitlement like hey, I worked really hard and graduated from gender studies, why do I have to flip burgers and am not making 6 millions a week like this person! Again, youre missing my point which is No one wants to work for you! If you force them, people opt for the common lowest denominator which is being the leeching commie garbage like the rest, resulting in a failed society. Just let everyone pursue their dreams, whats wrong with that?

wow.

commie, the burger flipping narrative, gender studies stereotype, you got everything in there

you should add something about how reagan was so great and the benefits of trickle down economics

it doesnt look enough like conservative baby boomer nonsense yet

yes i do get what you're saying, i'm just telling you that you're wrong

[GreenJesus]

But that ends here, because if you thought Berne Sanders was a socialist, here's a few of JLM's propositions :

- 100% tax on all income after 400.000 /year
- taxation of citizens abroad (i.e. fiscal exilees)
- impossibility to earn more than 20 times than the lowest paid employee
-possibility to revocate elected officials by vote
- write a new referendum-approved constitution centered on ecology, democracy and worker's rights

I will respond to each point one by one

1. 100% tax on all income after 400,000 per year is overkill and is overly punishing. I at least understand a tiered tax bracket such as 50% for income above 400k, 70% for income above 2 million, 73% above blank, etc. However, putting a cap on income only stifles innovation, and incentive.
2. Does this mean If I were to be a dual citizen, I have to pay taxes on my income on top of what I own in the country I currently reside in?
3. I can understand this bullet point if it refers to strictly salary. If companies redesign their compensation structure to "salary is capped at 20x of lowest paid, but higher positions are given more stock options" then I can get behind that. I think giving all employees regardless of level in the company an opportunity to invest in the company and have an incentive to help the company do better is only beneficial.
4. This is absurd. What kind of limits are there to prevent a vote happening every month or a vote to happen right after something bad happens and the opposing political party capitalizes on the opportunity? There would be too much unrest in the country.
5. Not sure what that means. Need more info.

[Deleted]

I will respond to each point one by one

1. 100% tax on all income after 400,000 per year is overkill and is overly punishing. I at least understand a tiered tax bracket such as 50% for income above 400k, 70% for income above 2 million, 73% above blank, etc. However, putting a cap on income only stifles innovation, and incentive.
2. Does this mean If I were to be a dual citizen, I have to pay taxes on my income on top of what I own in the country I currently reside in?
3. I can understand this bullet point if it refers to strictly salary. If companies redesign their compensation structure to "salary is capped at 20x of lowest paid, but higher positions are given more stock options" then I can get behind that. I think giving all employees regardless of level in the company an opportunity to invest in the company and have an incentive to help the company do better is only beneficial.
4. This is absurd. What kind of limits are there to prevent a vote happening every month or a vote to happen right after something bad happens and the opposing political party capitalizes on the opportunity? There would be too much unrest in the country.
5. Not sure what that means. Need more info.

1- there would be 14 different tax brackets with the higher being 100%. i guess the cap would be determined each year by the overall economic state like minimum salary is.

2- no, what you pay in your country of residence is deduced, you won't double pay

3- reinvestment in the company would not be taxed as heavily as personnal income. the goal is to promote developpment of the company rather than enlarging shareholder's wallets.

4- it would work like the "we the people" website where you have to gather sufficient amount of signatures in order for your proposal to be considered.

-5 basically he wants to get rid of nuclear and shift to clean energy, make it impossible to exceed nature's natural rate of ressource renewal when exploiting ressources, improve participation in the political process by reducing the president's powers , reform the constitution so it can include 21st century issues like net neutrality, etc
its really too long to describe in a few words

[Deleted]

I will respond to each point one by one

1. 100% tax on all income after 400,000 per year is overkill and is overly punishing. I at least understand a tiered tax bracket such as 50% for income above 400k, 70% for income above 2 million, 73% above blank, etc. However, putting a cap on income only stifles innovation, and incentive.
2. Does this mean If I were to be a dual citizen, I have to pay taxes on my income on top of what I own in the country I currently reside in?
3. I can understand this bullet point if it refers to strictly salary. If companies redesign their compensation structure to "salary is capped at 20x of lowest paid, but higher positions are given more stock options" then I can get behind that. I think giving all employees regardless of level in the company an opportunity to invest in the company and have an incentive to help the company do better is only beneficial.
4. This is absurd. What kind of limits are there to prevent a vote happening every month or a vote to happen right after something bad happens and the opposing political party capitalizes on the opportunity? There would be too much unrest in the country.
5. Not sure what that means. Need more info.

Well I personally believe any tax above maintaining basic infrastructure and military is theft. Being able to pay is meaningless cause in my book its the same as forcing healthy, able-bodied people to work for free and equals slavery.

The problem is that most people are.. very stupid and dont understand the need vs demand system.

[Deleted]

Well I personally believe any tax above maintaining basic infrastructure and military is theft

you would be surprised by the amount of french people that are proud to pay their taxes and contribute their fair share to society's wellbeing

the first thing i noticed when i was in the us was the lack of public transports, you are pretty much forced to own a car (and pay gas, maintenance,etc).
that's not the case in most of europe.

just because you don't pay taxes doesn't mean you will end up saving more money than those who do.

in the us a medical bill can ruin your life. you will have to get a loan with high interests and corporations actively trying to prey on you for profit.
i'm pretty sure even if you don't get an accident, the assurance costs are higher than what you would pay in taxes in europe

[Deleted]

What the hell is "alt-left"? Marxism exists in France since the late 1800s.

Fuck, americans need to stop redefining the concept of "left and right" created by the french during the revolution.

[Authary]

you would be surprised by the amount of french people that are proud to pay their taxes and contribute their fair share to society's wellbeing

Damn. I've lived in France my whole life and I'm also surprised. Where are those people ?

[Deleted]

Damn. I've lived in France my whole life and I'm also surprised. Where are those people ?

they started to change their mind when neoliberals came around and made most of the tax burden go to the middle class.

but the social security has always been a point of pride in the traditional left, and even if people sometimes bitch about taxes, i can assure you they would not give it up for anything in the world

[socanyou]

as for the public services part what do you think that tax proposal is for ? there is no commie conspiracy plan to overthrow the bourgeoisie, it is just supposed to adress the problems globalisation has created.

populations goes up, jobs goes down for various reason, there is a point where the capitalist model cannot function anymore even if it did ok for a time

oh i didn't know it was just doing "ok"

the tax proposal isn't anti-capitalism, it just draws a new line for the wealthy and gives government more money to play with, only in theory for effective public services. it has nothing to do with jobs or population size or globalization. it's a wild goose chase that a handful of people in politics want you to believe in. if the argument is so good, why not work with the 1% to improve infrastructure or healthcare? because the understanding is that throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it - where we can, we do pretty good at helping less fortunate people. if you are poor in the us or europe you still get to live VERY well.

[Deleted]

if you are poor in the us or europe you still get to live VERY well.

yeah okay

why dont you try it then ?

i would really like to see you tell the homeless people in my city how fortunate they are to live in european dumpsters

see how long til you get punched in the face and start crying about how the left needs violence to be relevant

[saffi]

But that ends here, because if you thought Berne Sanders was a socialist, here's a few of JLM's propositions :

- 100% tax on all income after 400.000 /year
- taxation of citizens abroad (i.e. fiscal exilees)
- impossibility to earn more than 20 times than the lowest paid employee
-possibility to revocate elected officials by vote
- write a new referendum-approved constitution centered on ecology, democracy and worker's rights

1) Not gonna happen. Unfortunately.
2) Already happens in a few european countries. Hardly new or gamechanging for most that actually live in that country
3) Sure, but not sure how putting a number on it will help. That's just trying to treat the symptome rather than the cause.
4) That is already in place. It's called being a member of a political party and rallying people against whoever you want to see kicked out of office.
5)

[Sorrior]

I'm all for socialism with limited capitalism but how can you tax anyone at 100%? I can understand 50% t0 75%.

Interest with that kinda income interest alone will give them more then most.

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I will respond to each point one by one

1. 100% tax on all income after 400,000 per year is overkill and is overly punishing. I at least understand a tiered tax bracket such as 50% for income above 400k, 70% for income above 2 million, 73% above blank, etc. However, putting a cap on income only stifles innovation, and incentive.
2. Does this mean If I were to be a dual citizen, I have to pay taxes on my income on top of what I own in the country I currently reside in?
3. I can understand this bullet point if it refers to strictly salary. If companies redesign their compensation structure to "salary is capped at 20x of lowest paid, but higher positions are given more stock options" then I can get behind that. I think giving all employees regardless of level in the company an opportunity to invest in the company and have an incentive to help the company do better is only beneficial.
4. This is absurd. What kind of limits are there to prevent a vote happening every month or a vote to happen right after something bad happens and the opposing political party capitalizes on the opportunity? There would be too much unrest in the country.
5. Not sure what that means. Need more info.

I hate the stifling argument. Modern artists philosophers most genuine creators create to create not for money

[Deleted]

building one that doesnt prey on human suffering to exist

The idea is not practical. And practical ideas are what work for societies.

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yeah okay

why dont you try it then ?

i would really like to see you tell the homeless people in my city how fortunate they are to live in european dumpsters

see how long til you get punched in the face and start crying about how the left needs violence to be relevant

I've lived as a poor person in a EU country for a number of years - My minimum income which required no work, was above the monthly pay of a low-status worker in Serbia.