Healer dps (or lack of it) in M+

[Deleted]

Like I said in my previous post. Many healers resist the thought of having to do something other than heal. The guy, Tyven(?), I think his name is encapsulates this perfectly.

It's the same as DPS & Tanks. If they aren't able to time personals/mitigate damage using whatever tools they have available I wouldn't play with them in the same way a healer standing overhealing or full on idle while nobody takes damage is just a trash individual.

[Deleted]

Healer doing some DPS might allow you to get +1 box in some cases so yeah, it is helpful. In PuGs I don't expect healers to do decent DPS though.

[SinR]

if its a pug don't expect Healers and Tanks to max their DPS, nor DPS to max their survival. Guild Run and/or high level M+ then yes you need it

[Tanthalas]

What do healers do otherwise? Stand there and do nothing?

[Sevyvia]

With the caveat that I don't do many M+ runs because I don't enjoy the rushing aspect of it, I really don't understand the desire for this. If you want better damage, bring better DPS. If the healer has time to be a (shitty) DPS, then you aren't pulling enough, or fast enough.

[munkeyinorbit]

Do you think healers should deal as much damage as they can in M+ dungeons, as long as their healing doesn't suffer?

I ran +8 Neltharion's Lair earlier today on my bear alt. Mind you, the entire group was sitting in 875+ gear and we were dealing accordingly with bolstering. Now, I do know around 70% of trash mobs in NL also deal group wide damage but... At the end of our 2-chest run I checked total damage done like I usually do and noticed that our druid healer had managed to pull a grand total of 0 damage. Not even a single Sunfire cast.
I asked him/her about it and the response was "because I don't have to, this isn't +12". While this stance would stand true in non-timed content, isn't it just being lazy not to help out on damage? He could have AT LEAST done something on bosses since I can mostly self-sustain on lower keys (tanked up to +13 on tyrannical on this particular character).

Or am I just being completely unreasonable and thank him for just keeping everyone alive?

I think you are just pissed it wasn't a 3 chest run. You are being unreasonable, he healed you. He did his job. Maybe next time ask for a healer that will do some dps.

[clevin]

Yes. In a really good group, everyone is expected to do their best to assure mutual success.
=.

And I think some of the pushback here is how OP phrased this. Not "should people be expected to do things other than their main role" but "Should healers DPS?" Healers tend to get shit on if people die, etc... but how many people shit on DPS that take avoidable damage, don't use pots or defensives, etc? Right... that's rare. Because people don't see that unless they look at logs/meters but they do see "Oh shit, we died/wiped".

From Wrath on, DPS became all about meters. In TBC at least, good DPS was also DPS that did use pots when needed (and I mean health pots), that would even bandage if it helped and who used CC and defensive CDs. So, yeah, healers should DPS if they can without risking someone dying, but tanks damn well better be mitigating the damage they can and self-healing and DPS need to help too.

Finally, if it's a new PUG, as a healer you don't KNOW if they will help out healing, watch damage etc or if they're going to just DPS and expect you to heal through shit. So it can easily take some time to get the pulse of the group. Not an issue for regular PUGs or guild runs of course.

[Deleted]

With the caveat that I don't do many M+ runs because I don't enjoy the rushing aspect of it, I really don't understand the desire for this. If you want better damage, bring better DPS. If the healer has time to be a (shitty) DPS, then you aren't pulling enough, or fast enough.

Sure because you can pull everything on Bolstering or Necrotics and so on. Every healer can still do some dmg, even if the tank pulls a lot and fast.. So your point is kinda invalid. Even those shitty 50 k dps overall can grant you an extra chest.

[Raiju]

With the caveat that I don't do many M+ runs because I don't enjoy the rushing aspect of it, I really don't understand the desire for this. If you want better damage, bring better DPS. If the healer has time to be a (shitty) DPS, then you aren't pulling enough, or fast enough.

Even without the caveat, it's common sense that in difficult content everyone does everything they can to make sure the run is successful.

[barackohmama]

Just like dps who don't use personal cds and interrupts, healers are also lazy bastards who don't know they can actually contribute a whole lot by dpsing prio targets during healing downtime. But yeah bad players are bad players.

[Deleted]

The main reason healing dps is allowed in m+ is because the group is good.
If you fail to interrupt and stand in stuff on the ground you're taking time off the healer, and forcing him to focus on you.
Paladins are without a doubt the best healer to do damage in a dungeon, followed by disc priest. While a disc priest relies on his damage, a holy paladin doesn't. So if the group is bad and requires a lot of attention from the healer, he won't have time to do any damage.

[Deleted]

I always suggest more healers should try FFXIV, then they can understand how easy their life in wow is. Especially now, when most healer DD spells are free and there's no casting mana regen reduction.

How i wish wow healers were only half as complex as the scholar.

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I fundamentally disagree. I see my role as a healer is the same as the others which is to complete the run as fast and smooth as possible. Due to the nature of my class, I'm afforded healing spells that are stronger than the other 4 members, and they're given DPS spells stronger than mine. That doesn't mean they shouldn't use defensives or heal if necessary. It also doesn't mean that I shouldn't contribute to the group's DPS when possible.

No one's asking a healer to hit X amount of damage done. But good healers will contribute with whatever DPS they can throw in. That being said, not everyone is good at this game or cares about optimizing their contribution to the group. It doesn't mean they're not wrong though.

I dunno, if the healer actually has time to DPS on top of doing all its usual healing without going oom, that means the tank can actually move faster and pull more stuff as long as the affixes allow it. The only exception are bosses ofc.
This is not FFXIV where healers have a cleric stance and switch all their healing powers for damage. Mana is limited and should be used efficient.

[Saverem]

I DPS whenever I can when I'm healing on my MW. Throwing up TP/BoK combos and RSKs and SCK on trash packs to complement my LS stun.

With that said, the higher the M+ the lower my DPS is since I have to spend more time healing. On 10+ most of my time is needed healing and I really only have time for the stun and maybe a RSK thrown in before having to heal some more.

[Helcion]

How i wish wow healers were only half as complex as the scholar.

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I dunno, if the healer actually has time to DPS on top of doing all its usual healing without going oom, that means the tank can actually move faster and pull more stuff as long as the affixes allow it. The only exception are bosses ofc.
This is not FFXIV where healers have a cleric stance and switch all their healing powers for damage. Mana is limited and should be used efficient.

All healers have a spammable, mana-free dps ability. No reason to not use this.

The idea that if the healer has time to dps then the tank isn't pulling enough mobs is foolish. As you mentioned, there are a few affixes that don't allow it, nor are you taking into account the CD's the tank has available at the time.

[Negato]

Being able to do relevant DPS separates an average healer from a great one. I play a Holy Priest and my group just finished an Arcway +15 on time with Necrotic/Raging/Fortified affixes, and I chose to wear 2 DPS trinkets (Ruby and Horror Slime) over throughput healing or mana trinkets to enable us to kill the mobs faster. Mobs dying faster = less group damage = less healing required = doing your job. I would also prepot and pop Deadly Grace for boss fights and time this with cooldowns to do 250k-300k. This was with a Pally Tank so I'm sure it made it easier with their self sustain.

A great healer is able to DPS during low damage patterns to end the encounter quicker thus reducing the chance of mistakes happening. Should this be required? In raids I would definitely not unless you are pushing to make an enrage timer, but in any dungeon or M+, yes the goal is to finish the dungeon as fast as possible and Blizzard finally gave us (healers) the tools to do so.

[Deleted]

I just hope they buff other healers's damage to be not that behind holy pally. -_- It obviously feels pretty good when you can weave in some damage and feel like you contribute. Not so much when you try to do damage but your damage just sucks.

[ohlins]

DPS? 9/10 im the one interrupting shit because the dps is to braindead to press an extra button. I'll DPS if i can, but 9/10 pugs it's just impossible.

[Deleted]

Being able to do relevant DPS separates an average healer from a great one. I play a Holy Priest and my group just finished an Arcway +15 on time with Necrotic/Raging/Fortified affixes, and I chose to wear 2 DPS trinkets (Ruby and Horror Slime) over throughput healing or mana trinkets to enable us to kill the mobs faster. Mobs dying faster = less group damage = less healing required = doing your job. I would also prepot and pop Deadly Grace for boss fights and time this with cooldowns to do 250k-300k. This was with a Pally Tank so I'm sure it made it easier with their self sustain.

A great healer is able to DPS during low damage patterns to end the encounter quicker thus reducing the chance of mistakes happening. Should this be required? In raids I would definitely not unless you are pushing to make an enrage timer, but in any dungeon or M+, yes the goal is to finish the dungeon as fast as possible and Blizzard finally gave us (healers) the tools to do so.

provide the log of that did not happen

Holy Priest in Myth15+ doing 300k dps on boss fights, right.

[Deleted]

Healers that don't DPS in down time are lazy or generally just bad, you have multiple ways of doing damage and over the course of a minute fight it all adds up.

I pugged a DHT9 awhile ago and we failed by about 5 seconds, glanced over to skada to see our rdruid had done 2 wraths in 95 seconds... Cost us the kill because he'd rather jump around doing front flips like a twat than cast wrath/sun+moonfire


Edit: I'm maining Rdruid and gearing a Hpala at the moment, on 4-7 dungeons I can generally be 2nd/3rd dps on the pala and once or twice I've topped. Doing 450k dps for the first 10-15 seconds on the first boss of Eye of Azshara is cool and all but knowing you've probably saved the group those 10-15 seconds is what defines a good healer from a bad one.

[Negato]

provide the log of that did not happen

Holy Priest in Myth15+ doing 300k dps on boss fights, right.

Very easy, on fortified weak boss healing very manageable with Surge procs and instant Holy Words. Anyways Potion of Deadly Grace alone will do 2.5 mil. Prepot one and one during the fight. Combine with Lust and Apotheosis = 250k Chastity hit every 3rd smite which are super fast due to Heroism. Add 2 Single target DPS trinkets Gnarled Root and Swarming Plaguehive and you will very easily hit ~300k on about 2.5 min fight duration.

Sadly we did not log but I will see if I can replicate it for you. But believe me it is doable and that's without legendary bracers reducing cast time of smite. 300k if fight is short, otherwise probably closer to 200k.