Legion - Subtlety discussion

[elfporn]

Is master of subtlety actually worse than weaponmaster? I was looking up the top 2 sub rogues in the US last night, and I noticed that both of them were using master of subtlety.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...an/Gahd/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ne/Jazu/simple

Also, how in the fuck are they able to pull 600k+ ursoc DPS? Are the boots really that much better than the bracers? They only have 10 ilvls on me, but are pulling 200k DPS higher. I have the bracers and the ring.

yep, boots.

It seems like it's tough to convince people that they really are that good. They will still be the best after the nerf too.

[celinamuna]

Boots will be a lot less needed come NH.

[elfporn]

Sub sucks even with boots. need shadow dance to not be shit and actually work when you press it mid cast

Firstly, you don't want to cast SD mid-GCD, for obvious reasons. It being on the GCD but not triggering it helps immensely with squeezing as much damage as possible in that 5 second window.

Second, you sound like you need to read up on how to play the spec to not suck at sub, as you put it.

[cface]

I'm currently assassin @ 860 ilvl. Since I have 3 MA relics, I've switched to sub for my lootspec on a hunch that sub will make me happy. Hope I wont regret it. It just seems that the damage is upfront with only 1 dot, so target switching on adds that live for about 10sec. Also I hate the relic shit with assassination being forced to run lower level MA relics. I hope it's not this bad as sub.

Hoping I'm making the right call.

[KrassusMMO]

I promise you, it's worse as sub.

you're just swapping the MA relic dependency on Energetic Stabbing ones. And adding the heartbreaking need to have the leggo boots to be truly competitive.

but you'll love sub regardless. it's the only spec that's not either an affli lock or captain barbossa.

[elfporn]

I'm currently assassin @ 860 ilvl. Since I have 3 MA relics, I've switched to sub for my lootspec on a hunch that sub will make me happy. Hope I wont regret it. It just seems that the damage is upfront with only 1 dot, so target switching on adds that live for about 10sec. Also I hate the relic shit with assassination being forced to run lower level MA relics. I hope it's not this bad as sub.

Hoping I'm making the right call.

at 860 the only thing you should change is indeed just your loot spec. get to 880/885+ with a nearly full artifact.

Boots aren't required to be competitive within your own raid group - they are needed to rank very high percentile on warcraft logs. Boots are just a massive boost to dps, allowing for much smoother gameplay by increasing energy gen inside of dances - with energetic stabbing a dance can even be energy positive.

[Xvolte]

I'm currently assassin @ 860 ilvl. Since I have 3 MA relics, I've switched to sub for my lootspec on a hunch that sub will make me happy. Hope I wont regret it. It just seems that the damage is upfront with only 1 dot, so target switching on adds that live for about 10sec. Also I hate the relic shit with assassination being forced to run lower level MA relics. I hope it's not this bad as sub.

Hoping I'm making the right call.

The damage is not going to be as high if you're raiding. At lower gear levels, assassin is much easier to pull off higher numbers, especially if you lack the subtlety boots. It took me maxing out my subtlety weapon, and gearing to 880+, with dual sub legendaries, before my sub damage single target started to get higher than assassin.

[Deleted]

I'm new to sub and I haven't been able to find when to use more than one stack of shadow dance
any help is appreciated

[elfporn]

I'm new to sub and I haven't been able to find when to use more than one stack of shadow dance
any help is appreciated

You never use more than one stack of SD at a time. There is no way to benefit from using SD, then SD again - the master of shadows talent has an ICD that prevents you from using vanish/SD back to back in order to generate extra energy on demand.

[Kaluna]

I've got the boots today and I did not think it will be that much energy. With 3 ES relic, i'm swimming in energy.
More than being overpowered, the rotation feels so much smoother.

I have a doubt. I have 3 good leg, boots + bracers + ring.
What is the best combo ?

[shaunika123]

Boots will be a lot less needed come NH.

yeah no... they're gonna be just as great

[Leyre]

i cant believe im finding subtetly to be more fun than outlaw and assa, sad days my friends, sad days

[elfporn]

I've got the boots today and I did not think it will be that much energy. With 3 ES relic, i'm swimming in energy.
More than being overpowered, the rotation feels so much smoother.

I have a doubt. I have 3 good leg, boots + bracers + ring.
What is the best combo ?

Likely boots+ring. i'm unsure on sub bracers.

[celinamuna]

yeah no... they're gonna be just as great

Not really, with NH tier you can easily afford to go Shadow Focus instead of subterfuge and always get 3 SS in a SD.
This will still get you 2 finishers per SDance.

They're still going be nice, but spec will be a lot more manageable w/o them.

[Maelstrom51]

Not really, with NH tier you can easily afford to go Shadow Focus instead of subterfuge and always get 3 SS in a SD.
This will still get you 2 finishers per SDance.

They're still going be nice, but spec will be a lot more manageable w/o them.

Shadow Focus is not and won't be competitive with Subterfuge. It just gives way too many additional Shadowstrikes and combo points.

With T19 + Subterfuge + Anticipation we can SS -> SS -> Finisher -> SS -> SS without overcapping unless we get incredibly unlucky, giving us 12cp instead of 9cp.

[celinamuna]

Shadow Focus is not and won't be competitive with Subterfuge. It just gives way too many additional Shadowstrikes and combo points.

With T19 + Subterfuge + Anticipation we can SS -> SS -> Finisher -> SS -> SS without overcapping unless we get incredibly unlucky, giving us 12cp instead of 9cp.

You will 100% overcap during that time at least due to shadow-tech procs. (And in part due to not always going in with 0 CP)
And for all of those people w/o boots SF will be a very viable alternative.

[Maelstrom51]

You will 100% overcap during that time at least due to shadow-tech procs. (And in part due to not always going in with 0 CP)
And for all of those people w/o boots SF will be a very viable alternative.

Nope.

SS (3) -> SS (6) -> Evis (1) -> SS (4) -> SS (7)

Starting from zero you have a buffer of three CP. You would have to get two double Shadow Technique procs to overcap starting with zero, but starting with 1 or 2 cp would usually be OK as well.

With SS x3 and Shadow Techniques you only have a single CP buffer starting from zero, so just one double Shadow Technique proc will overcap you.

[Deleted]

You will 100% overcap during that time at least due to shadow-tech procs. (And in part due to not always going in with 0 CP)
And for all of those people w/o boots SF will be a very viable alternative.

I dont have boots and I find Subterfuge to be mandatory. Even in the case Subterfuge wasnt mandatory I would still choose Nightstalker over Shadow Focus.

Wish Blizzard did Subterfuge as baseline for Sub.

[celinamuna]

Nope.

SS (3) -> SS (6) -> Evis (1) -> SS (4) -> SS (7)

Starting from zero you have a buffer of three CP. You would have to get two double Shadow Technique procs to overcap starting with zero, but starting with 1 or 2 cp would usually be OK as well.

With SS x3 and Shadow Techniques you only have a single CP buffer starting from zero, so just one double Shadow Technique proc will overcap you.

Did i miss the part where you can go up to 7 CP ?

With Subterfuge getting any CP (be it from shadow tech, or from starting dance with >0) will overcap you. The only case is if you start with 3 and then SS -> Evis -> SS -> SS -> Evis.

I dont have boots and I find Subterfuge to be mandatory. Even in the case Subterfuge wasnt mandatory I would still choose Nightstalker over Shadow Focus.

Wish Blizzard did Subterfuge as baseline for Sub.

You're finding it mandatory on ptr with 4p ?

[Kaluna]

With T19 + Subterfuge + Anticipation we can SS -> SS -> Finisher -> SS -> SS without overcapping unless we get incredibly unlucky, giving us 12cp instead of 9cp.

You missed that I guess.