Why Mythic Raid restrictions but not Mythic+ Dungeons?

[iperson]

What does ilevel have to do with anything? The problem is that Blizzard is actively discouraging me from playing alts or doing things other than M+ while I'm online, because time not spent doing M+ on my main is directly harming my main's power level to an extent that has never been the case before.

No one's complaining that you can chain heroic dungeons. It's not blizzard's fault you can't find a balance.

[Eapoe]

So because Asmongold whined about this now the tryhards are going to whine about it too?

Mythic+ dungeons are an alternative endgame to raiding. Raids will get amazing trinkets as time goes on, raids will get set bonuses, Mythic+ is something you run over and over and hope for the rare titanforged upgrade. Mythic dungeons (both regular and +) are already a severely under-utilized feature, stop trying to make them even worse holy shit.

Raiders get everything in this game and some of them still whine when someone else gets something.



Lol because tier bonuses and better itemized trinkets as the expansion ages are a totally valid point, plus the higher base ilevel from raiding while doing Mythic+ requires you to hope and spam runs for a rare titanforge. Damn tryhard raiders are entitled.

So you endlessly run m+ with no lockout in an attempt to get better loot multiple times every day, or you run a raid once a week in an attempt to get loot. Tier is not always better itemized. As a for instance, only 1 piece (if that) has haste/mastery on it, the 2 best stats for a MM hunter. The tier bonus itself is where the damage comes from in most cases. As I stated in the direct post you quoted, some classes only go for 2 pieces, some classes the trinket from NH isn't even worth it. This means only 2-5 pieces out of 16 available are actually required from raiding. Add to this m+ scale in ilvl as the xpac ages (so far and no sign of changing), then m+ will still be a better alternative to raiding for almost every item slot.
If you're going to quote someone, you could at least read and comprehend the whole post and not reply to the first line while acting like you have some amazing point. Guess I should expect that from someone that uses the quote "damn diehard."

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Personally i love M+ because for people like me who arn't a big fan of organized raiding (aka. Guild raiding for Mythic) i can constantly progress my character and feel like i'm getting better, rather than old expansions of getting bored after pugging normal and quitting until the next patch/expansion. Which is even worse for the majority, who quit or break when they finish LFR. Healthier for the game overall.

Very few are saying m+ is a bad idea, just the implementation of things needs work to suit everyone, casual and hardcore, raiders and non raiders, people with time and people with time constraints, equally.

[Deiae]

I have two items from raid. Rest are crafted/legendary/mythic+/kara. I'm not extremely lucky either.

I think that is one extreme that is overstated. My char - to give another example - wears 2 items directly from the nearly 500 m+ I ran, the rest is either from one of the raids, kara, the weekly box or a legendary and if I look a my fellow raiders or many people on wowprogress it looks similiar to me. The raidgear or the weekly lootbox simply do make up a very good chunk of the gear due to its increased base itemlevel.

m+ is a very integral place in getting your ap and gear but you don't need to grind as much as you pretend to do due to all the things that are built in that lessen the reward from further grinding them beyond a point.

[Redroniksre]

So you endlessly run m+ with no lockout in an attempt to get better loot multiple times every day, or you run a raid once a week in an attempt to get loot. Tier is not always better itemized. As a for instance, only 1 piece (if that) has haste/mastery on it, the 2 best stats for a MM hunter. The tier bonus itself is where the damage comes from in most cases. As I stated in the direct post you quoted, some classes only go for 2 pieces, some classes the trinket from NH isn't even worth it. This means only 2-5 pieces out of 16 available are actually required from raiding. Add to this m+ scale in ilvl as the xpac ages (so far and no sign of changing), then m+ will still be a better alternative to raiding for almost every item slot.
If you're going to quote someone, you could at least read and comprehend the whole post and not reply to the first line while acting like you have some amazing point. Guess I should expect that from someone that uses the quote "damn diehard."

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Very few are saying m+ is a bad idea, just the implementation of things needs work to suit everyone, casual and hardcore, raiders and non raiders, people with time and people with time constraints, equally.

It can always use work, just have to be careful not to impose limitations on casual players because some mythic players feel obligated to ram through them non stop.

[Polarthief]

No loot restrictions
More better itemised gear on average. Virtually no loot restrictions compared with raiding where there are only a fixed and finite number of itemisation options. Much more BiS prevalent in Mythic+ Dungeons. No lockout for AP either.

Good luck actually getting the loot though, that's the biggest issue with M+. Personal Loot sucks, and when the piece you finally need drops, it's a 5iLvl upgrade for the guy who's just gonna DE it.

[barackohmama]

I actually like how the system works atm.

-Raids give good loot
-Dungeons give good loot
-Between raids you can do dungeons
-In raids you kill bosses for the sense of accomplishment(minus EN mythic :P)

What is the problem? Sure m+ is beneficial. It's not optimal just to do your 3 days a week clear and get loot from there anymore. But you can do it and be perfectly fine as a casual raider since base ilvl is so high. For those more hardcore they can do m+ for occasional upgrades, which is perfectly fine. At least it's much better than dungeons being completely irrelevant that has been the case for most expansions. Also I'm a huge fan of always being able to improve my character and it's actually quite nice to be a little better before you attempt a boss next time.

[Jotaux]

I love mythic+! Theres always something to do now when I log on

[Eapoe]

It can always use work, just have to be careful not to impose limitations on casual players because some mythic players feel obligated to ram through them non stop.

Unfortunately, limitations are what is needed. For Blizzard to say that they want m+ to be an alternative to raiding then the same rules need to apply to make them equal. Give some kind of lockout to m+ or allow raids to be endlessly farmed. A lockout to m+ does not need to be extraneous or seem unfair, as they could easily lock them behind 2 +2's, 2 +3's, so on and so on; or, as the alternative, let a raid run out of the instance and rest it and start with fresh loot tables every time, maybe have that happen but only have it start at the 2nd or 3rd boss. Again, I'm not saying anything drastic needs to occur. Maybe something as simple as calling the amount of AP you can earn in a week thru each activity, or even making m+ gear scale down to a point once you enter a raid instance (much like what happens in instanced PvP). A separation of the 2 would also combat the forced feeling a lot of raiders get from having to min/max in progression based guilds.

[Redroniksre]

Unfortunately, limitations are what is needed. For Blizzard to say that they want m+ to be an alternative to raiding then the same rules need to apply to make them equal. Give some kind of lockout to m+ or allow raids to be endlessly farmed. A lockout to m+ does not need to be extraneous or seem unfair, as they could easily lock them behind 2 +2's, 2 +3's, so on and so on; or, as the alternative, let a raid run out of the instance and rest it and start with fresh loot tables every time, maybe have that happen but only have it start at the 2nd or 3rd boss. Again, I'm not saying anything drastic needs to occur. Maybe something as simple as calling the amount of AP you can earn in a week thru each activity, or even making m+ gear scale down to a point once you enter a raid instance (much like what happens in instanced PvP). A separation of the 2 would also combat the forced feeling a lot of raiders get from having to min/max in progression based guilds.

The only problem i see with limited attempts is that if a raider does their raids, what can they do next? Mythic +. If someone who only does Mythic + caps, then what do they do? Heroics? World quests? Or the most likely, log off for the week. I don't mind raiding, and hell i have been an advocate of having raiding, and pvp gear only work within their respective fields to combat the niche over ruling the majority, but when you are talking about an issue an insurmountably tiny amount of people have in the game, sometimes the foot has to be put down. After all, it isn't Blizzard forcing raiders to run M+, it is their guilds, or themselves.

[Meiffert]

No loot restrictions
More better itemised gear on average. Virtually no loot restrictions compared with raiding where there are only a fixed and finite number of itemisation options. Much more BiS prevalent in Mythic+ Dungeons. No lockout for AP either.

The gear isn't better itemized on average. Where did you get the idea?
If there are more BiS pieces in dungeons, it's because there are more bosses and different item pieces in all the dungeons combined.
The best you can say is that on average, the itemization is the same.

On top of that, the raids have tier pieces and some of the more interesting trinkets. Typically, Blizzard also saves the unique trinkets with strongest effects for the later tiers, so it is reasonable to expect even stronger trinkets there.

The base (guaranteed) ilvl is also higher in raids.
You would have to run a lot more dungeons and spend a lot more time to get everything titanforged to 890+, while in raids this ilvl is guaranteed.

On average, the expected loot from a mythic raid instance is so much better than the loot from a 3-chested mythic +11 dungeon (highest rewards).

No weekly lockout restrictions
Mythic+ keys are, for all intents and purposes, limitless.

And here I am, only being able to use my key once. After that I can only run higher level (just like you can run different difficulties of raids the same week).
Getting keys from different characters is possible of course, but then you can't play with your group of 5 people. You can also clear raids again on your alts.
You are partially correct of course, that you can get loot from dungeons as long as the "leader" isn't "saved" rather than you.

No scheduling restrictions
Mythic+ does not require a fixed schedule like Mythic raiding does.

I fail to see what you mean.
You need all 5 people to be online to do a dungeon. You can replace players in a raid just like you can replace them in a dungeon.
The only difference is that raiding requires more players (20 rather than 5), but other than that there is no fundamental difference in scheduling that I can see.

[Sencha]

So you don't like raids and want the game to be tailored to your preference.

Next.

[cFortyfive]

Good luck actually getting the loot though.

Have friends. Just gave away a titanforged nightbane trinket.

After all, it isn't Blizzard forcing raiders to run M+, it is their guilds, or themselves.

Mythic+ is a requirement for progression unless you want to progress on the encounters once the next tier is out.

[Eapoe]

The only problem i see with limited attempts is that if a raider does their raids, what can they do next? Mythic +. If someone who only does Mythic + caps, then what do they do? Heroics? World quests? Or the most likely, log off for the week. I don't mind raiding, and hell i have been an advocate of having raiding, and pvp gear only work within their respective fields to combat the niche over ruling the majority, but when you are talking about an issue an insurmountably tiny amount of people have in the game, sometimes the foot has to be put down. After all, it isn't Blizzard forcing raiders to run M+, it is their guilds, or themselves.

In a way though, it is in fact Blizzard as well as the people that make the committment to a guild. When Blizzard tunes a raid encounter based on certain ilvls (see any thread about Odyn/Guarm/Helya) and those items are obtained the quickest and easiest thru m+, then it is a standard set by the devs themselves that makes raiders feel forced to do these things outside of a raid. I'm not trying to justify those people's arguements that go overboard with some topics, but let's be very honest, if raiders weren't chain running m+ and doing WQ's as often as possible, most progression guilds would still be pushing heroic raid content as they wouldn't have the gear or AP needed to do mythic raiding.
Again, the cap doesn't need to be that low, it could be set to something so high that your typical casual wouldn't ever finish in a week yet your average progression raider could easily obtain. Another issue I mentioned would be removing the lockout from raids to put them on the same spammable side as m+ and make them have equal footing for obtaining loot, Blizz could even put a slightly lower chance on gear drops after the first lockout is done to have people not be geared in 1 night. The other way would be to just scale back m+ ilvl in raids/bg's, which would take pressure off of raiders spamming them non stop for gear upgrades during progression; this, combined with a high cap on AP gained from m+ would alleviate a lot of forced feeling from raiders. It still gives all players a reason to run them, yet makes them not affect 1 group of players as much as they do.
I don't claim to have the answers as to how to fix the situation to make it better, but there are options that I'm sure Blizzard could come up with to improve upon the system.

[Coldvibes]

Mythic+ is a requirement for progression unless you want to progress on the encounters once the next tier is out.

It's a problem that blows up on itself, the more players feel that M+ is mandatory, the harder devs have to tune raids because they're expecting players to have farmed M+ infinity times with titanforged upgrades on everything. Then we just get a slippery slope of problems that shouldn't exist simply because the upper end can't control themselves.

[Raiju]

But that's not even remotely close to true. That's just lying. Look at anyone that's running Heroic raids or better, most of their gear unless they're extremely unlucky is going to be raid gear, not M+ gear.

I'd say that's largely untrue. Unless yo're doing mythic ToV which guarantees higher ilvl (or avoid doing M+) majority of your gear is likely nonraid gear.

[cFortyfive]

It's a problem that blows up on itself, the more players feel that M+ is mandatory, the harder devs have to tune raids because they're expecting players to have farmed M+ infinity times with titanforged upgrades on everything. Then we just get a slippery slope of problems that shouldn't exist simply because the upper end can't control themselves.

Presuming for a second that was the complete picture - do you genuinely expect people to just farm raids and never get ap and legendaries ?

[Coldvibes]

Presuming for a second that was the complete picture - do you genuinely expect people to just farm raids and never get ap and legendaries ?

The upper echelon of raiders have never been able to control themselves period, so no.
The bigger problem is that raids themselves need better rewards in terms of AP and legendary chance at the moment, and that is something all parties can agree with.

The "running M+ ad nauseum" problem is exactly the problem in D3 but more pronounced now due to very low chance legendaries; Why run Mythic raids or M+12 and beyond when mindlessly grinding 7-9 keys is far more lucrative with your time?

[cFortyfive]

The upper echelon of raiders have never been able to control themselves period, so no.

I am sorry you are under the impression the situation has been even close to this before even with splits in mind.

[PosPosPos]

I am sorry you are under the impression the situation has been even close to this before even with splits in mind.

I am sorry you have to subscribe to two opposite ends of an argument and contradict your earlier stance just to start an argument with a poster who agreed with you.

[cFortyfive]

I am sorry you have to subscribe to two opposite ends of an argument and contradict your earlier stance just to start an argument with a poster who agreed with you.

Is that an American issue - not being able to support and disagree with arguments made by a single person ?