Too many guilds, not enough players?

[Chaelexi]

there are actually so fucking many "7/7H 3/3N looking for ranged dps to push into mythic" guilds it's crazy. i really miss 10 man

DO what smart people would do and look for a guild to merge with or you are going to lose your players to higher content

[Marrilaife]

DO what smart people would do and look for a guild to merge with or you are going to lose your players to higher content

And what exactly are you gonna do with a roster of 4 tanks 7 healers bazillion melee and barely enough ranged? That's about what happens if you merge 2 sub-20 man rosters.

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So I keep seeing demand for 10 mans, while normal and heroic can be 10 man "flex" raided. Why don't those people go out and do that?

Because they want mythic raid only?

Because trying to sustain a hc-only raiding guild is hard when you constantly have to fight attitudes like "why am I even here I killed this boss with a pug and it was so easy". Pugging killed normal and hc raiding guilds. Except the true friend and family ones that stick together because of social bonds and raiding is only side activity for them, it's not a "raiding guild" but more of a "friends guild".

[voidillusion]

And what exactly are you gonna do with a roster of 4 tanks 7 healers bazillion melee and barely enough ranged? That's about what happens if you merge 2 sub-20 man rosters.

Been through a few guild merges since i play wow and for that exact reason none went well. Guilds have to be extra compatible role and class wise for that to go well in my mind.

[Caladia]

The whole guild thing is getting really, really stupid. We have like 8 different guilds all 7/7 h recruiting in trade all day every day on my server for mythic teams, most raid the same days too. Just. Idiots. I even tried to get 2 to merge. It's always people who don't want to leave their guild... A. Who the fuck cares, B. You can keep your guild and have your alts in it, C. Who the fuck cares.

Blizzard started the problem with making the highest raid difficulty 20m only. Players are making it worse by being closed off weirdos.

I look for guilds on my server that raid the same nights and close to our times to talk about a merge, didn't work out well. We're also a low raiding pop realm, it would be nice to see another round of connections being made.

Or since we can see and interact with anyone no matter the server, maybe it's time that all realms are connected by timezone or something.

[Chaelexi]

I look for guilds on my server that raid the same nights and close to our times to talk about a merge, didn't work out well. We're also a low raiding pop realm, it would be nice to see another round of connections being made.

Or since we can see and interact with anyone no matter the server, maybe it's time that all realms are connected by timezone or something.

It could work but you may have to leave the really strong outlier realms out. On the US side Sargeras, Illidan, KT to name a few or you will just get a domination of their pricing in the AH.

[Caladia]

remove underpopulated small realms. Why do they still exist, besides greed to keep server xfer money flowing.

Yes, please. We're on such a small server, no one wants to transfer to us and there's not many on the connected realms that aren't already in a guild if they're looking for that.

[Deleted]

Do you think there will be as many guilds completing NH mythic as there are guilds completing EN mythic, i dont really think so, and this will destroy many guilds and bring back a recruitment boom to the actual good guilds.

[netherflame]

The problem I see is two fold and I think it happens regardless of server size, although small servers will be affected by this more then large ones.

1. There are too many guilds which limits the amount of available players
2. Officers in those guilds, or anyone of privilege for that matter, don't want to lose that so they either won't leave or won't merge unless they have to.

[Zyky]

I really keep trying to get over your insults, cant take you seriously over it, but nvm, will keep trying.

I dont know where you find that holy bible saying that one MUST chat all day long in mmorpg, but I will continue to play mmorpg "the wrong" way.
Mmorpg - massive multiplayer online roleplaying game.
Is it massive? Yes, it is.
Are there multiple players in game? Yes, there are.
Is it online? Yes, it is.
Roleplaying? Very few ppl roleplay, but ok, lets say it is
Game? Yes it is.
So, where is it said it is socializing game? Multiplayer only means there are other people around. Do you talk to every single passenger in a bus? No, you dont, you just mashing buttons on your phone ignoring them completely.

So, leave out that mmorpg argument, im totally playing under its definition. If its called mmmsodhrpg (massive-multiplayer-online-must-socialize-or-die-hortibly-rpg), I would agree with you at definition only.

Also, it true it is not singleplayer game since there are others around, but it can be played very successfully AS singleplayer, never grouping or talking to with anyone.

No one said anything about requiring being social, but you should have to join a guild to do the content in the game. The whole concept, of EVERY MMORPG that has ever released, has been clearing content with OTHER PEOPLE IN A GUILD OR CLAN. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're incapable of listening and reading properly because english isn't your first language. WoW is dying, and it'll die sooner without them reinforcing guild and server identity. You are a problem, you're not playing an MMORPG correctly, the fact that people can play an MMORPG singleplayer "very successfully" is a major flaw and a huge problem.

[Deleted]

No one said anything about requiring being social, but you should have to join a guild to do the content in the game. The whole concept, of EVERY MMORPG that has ever released, has been clearing content with OTHER PEOPLE IN A GUILD OR CLAN. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're incapable of listening and reading properly because english isn't your first language. WoW is dying, and it'll die sooner without them reinforcing guild and server identity. You are a problem, you're not playing an MMORPG correctly, the fact that people can play an MMORPG singleplayer "very successfully" is a major flaw and a huge problem.

Im "incapable to listen and read" only because I dont agree with you.
You are decribing a game which died long time ago in shape you like and will never come back, its only you cant get over it.

Also, you are not doing guilds a favor by calling everyone who disagree with you like scrubs, mentally challenged etc.
Who will join guild if their main spokesman has such attitude to players who dont think like him?
I maybe could of change my mind about guilds, but now Im totally sure in my stance on the subject.
End of discussion for me.

[melodramocracy]

Anecdotes being what they are: We run a very social but active guild (something going on almost every night, raid 2x per week), and aren't even close to having enough folks that are interested in raiding to fill a 20 man roster.

I'm personally ok with that, and most of the guildies are as well, but the low number of people out there who want to progress on any level does seem fairly low.

I think dungeons have taken a significant bite out mythic raiding. The gear is almost equally alluring, nevermind the increased chances to get said gear via no lockouts and lower number of required participants.

[Skyepic]

No one said anything about requiring being social, but you should have to join a guild to do the content in the game. The whole concept, of EVERY MMORPG that has ever released, has been clearing content with OTHER PEOPLE IN A GUILD OR CLAN. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're incapable of listening and reading properly because english isn't your first language. WoW is dying, and it'll die sooner without them reinforcing guild and server identity. You are a problem, you're not playing an MMORPG correctly, the fact that people can play an MMORPG singleplayer "very successfully" is a major flaw and a huge problem.

You need to understand that this is just your interpretation of what an MMO is. I think you would be surprised at the large amount of the community that never steps foot in a heroic or mythic dungeon (let alone a raid). Some people play this game just for the lore/story or leveling a character. Once they hit max level they may do dailies or professions or just turn around and level a different character of their choosing. Not every players mindset is "hit max level, find group, get upgrades".

Since this expansion requires dungeon content to further progress your Artifact weapon i'm sure some of these players will end up doing some dungeon content (possibly more than they really wanted to). But to say every MMORPG is made with end game guild content is mind is just ignorance. That is what YOU perceive MMO's to be because that is the content that you are most interested in.

Have you ever played R.O.S.E Online, or Silkroad Online or most Eastern created MMO's where 80% of the game is just grinding XP through killing mobs by yourself? Are those any less of an MMO than WoW? Some of those games have little to no End Game Group content. According to you they are not MMO's (are atleast they don't have the "concept" of an MMO).

Your argument is flawed because you're using your personal interests in an MMO as the main (and quite possibly only) reason to play the game. People play MMO's for a lot of different reasons. Not all focused around end game group content, and a game is no less of an MMO if end game group content is not its main element.

[Notdev]

Its a huge problem for those middling level mythic guilds. If you're 4/7M-7/7M and raid an average amount of hours (8-12) then, to be frank, there isn't really anything special about your guild unless you raid odd hours (morning/afternoon/super late). You pretty much have to settle on taking friends of friends or take a chance on people with lesser numbers/gear/progression than what you're accustomed to, or actively and heavily recruit people (targeted recruiting/not expecting trade chat/forum posts to do all the work for you). There are around 1700 guilds that are 7/7M that haven't killed Odyn, and 5500 4/7M guilds. There aren't enough prospective raiders/raiders looking to move up for each of those guilds in that category to get a consistent stream of apps.

We were in the 7/7M 3/3H limbo until last week. We killed it and almost instantly got 2 high quality apps which we approved. (Though we do raid only 2 days a week for 7 hours total which appeals to many people)

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d R.O.S.E Online, or Silkroad Online or most Eastern created MMO's where 80% of the game is just grinding XP through killing mobs by yourself? Are those any less of an MMO than WoW?

Yes lol. Dead games that probably never reached 1-10% of WoW's subscribers during their peaks are lesser games and should not be models for other games.

[Zyky]

Im "incapable to listen and read" only because I dont agree with you.
You are decribing a game which died long time ago in shape you like and will never come back, its only you cant get over it.

Also, you are not doing guilds a favor by calling everyone who disagree with you like scrubs, mentally challenged etc.
Who will join guild if their main spokesman has such attitude to players who dont think like him?
I maybe could of change my mind about guilds, but now Im totally sure in my stance on the subject.
End of discussion for me.

Oh really it "died long ago"? Yet it was the only points in the history of the game where subs just kept going up and up. Ever since subs have just been going down and down. They spike at the start of expansions, then DROP. Trust me, no one wants someone who's going to be as flaky as you sound. You'll be kicked the second you say "nah don't feel like it tonight". So again what's really killing the game? People like you who don't want to suck it up and be a part of a community or guild. People who feel entitled after years of Blizzard holding their hand and giving them free loot and free boss kills. People who don't want to wake up and realize that if the game keeps going in this "way too available content" direction the game is going to die much sooner.

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You need to understand that this is just your interpretation of what an MMO is. I think you would be surprised at the large amount of the community that never steps foot in a heroic or mythic dungeon (let alone a raid). Some people play this game just for the lore/story or leveling a character. Once they hit max level they may do dailies or professions or just turn around and level a different character of their choosing. Not every players mindset is "hit max level, find group, get upgrades".

Since this expansion requires dungeon content to further progress your Artifact weapon i'm sure some of these players will end up doing some dungeon content (possibly more than they really wanted to). But to say every MMORPG is made with end game guild content is mind is just ignorance. That is what YOU perceive MMO's to be because that is the content that you are most interested in.

Have you ever played R.O.S.E Online, or Silkroad Online or most Eastern created MMO's where 80% of the game is just grinding XP through killing mobs by yourself? Are those any less of an MMO than WoW? Some of those games have little to no End Game Group content. According to you they are not MMO's (are atleast they don't have the "concept" of an MMO).

Your argument is flawed because you're using your personal interests in an MMO as the main (and quite possibly only) reason to play the game. People play MMO's for a lot of different reasons. Not all focused around end game group content, and a game is no less of an MMO if end game group content is not its main element.

You didn't read what I said, those are also mmo's yes, but this isn't just an MMO, its an MMORPG which is what I said and explained. Please know the difference before you go on a rant about something I'm not even talking about. As for people playing for different reasons then it wouldn't effect them. If they don't raid, if they don't do mythic+ how would my argument possibly effect them? I don't give a fuck if -insert name here- enjoys farming herbs all day long or if someone else just plays the AH all day long. You obviously didn't bother to go back and read any of my posts in this topic. The whole thing the person arguing with me about is how he doesn't want to join a guild because he doesn't feel the need to because he can already do content that he shouldn't be able to just pugging it with multiple randoms across different servers.

[Osmeric]

Well, I've been one of "those" people that says the game doesn't need 4 difficulties, and I'll tell you why.

Ok.

When raiding used to be 1 or 2 difficulties, people had to "git gud" at the game, learn their class, learn their rotation, and probably find a guild. There wasn't a babysitting mode and there wasn't a beer league mode. That's what dungeons used to be for. With all the modes available now, you no longer need to excel at your class to see content. You can run LFR, maybe find some normal mode pugs, and that's where your content ends. There's not a lot of incentives to go any further than that for a lot of people. What I'm basically trying to say is that I think the overall skill of players has declined since the addition of all these different modes to cater to every play style. I think, at most, raiding should be 2 difficulties. Normal mode, which would be slightly harder than LFR, and Heroic, which would be around where it's tuned at now, with maybe a "hardcore" end boss thrown in at the end for all the no-life world first chasers to fight over.

That may explain why you say that, but it doesn't do anything to explain why we would think you're correct.

[Deleted]

This problem has always existed and will always exist.

The key issue is the "stickiness" of the guild community combined with the cyclic nature of subscriptions. If ten Mythic raiding guilds start an expansion with 25 players each, and each loses 5 players who decide they've seen enough of the new expansion, you basically have zero viable raiding guilds - whereas if two of them disbanded, the other eight could get back up to 25. This is obviously a contrived example, but the point remains - guilds fighting for their own survival remove a lot of fluidity from the raiding population. Clearly, it's totally understandable and I don't have a solution - and yet, if you reach the point where your guild is cancelling raids because of too few signups, do consider that letting the poor thing die and letting its members find happy new homes might be the best solution for literally everyone ;-)

[Trapped]

Ok.


That may explain why you say that, but it doesn't do anything to explain why we would think you're correct.

It is just my opinion from my in game experiences. Do you agree or disagree with my opinion? Please explain why or why not.

[Osmeric]

It is just my opinion from my in game experiences. Do you agree or disagree with my opinion? Please explain why or why not.

Yes, I think you're totally wrong. Players don't, as a rule, "git gud". They rise to their generally low skill caps and quit if the game becomes too much harder.

I don't think there's been a single point in the history of the game -- not even the first tier of Wrath -- where making it harder was or would have been the right thing to do. If anything, the devs have squandered most of the subs the game has ever had by trying to cater to people like you.

[Trapped]

Yes, I think you're totally wrong. Players don't, as a rule, "git gud". They rise to their generally low skill caps and quit if the game becomes too much harder.

I don't think there's been a single point in the history of the game -- not even the first tier of Wrath -- where making it harder was or would have been the right thing to do. If anything, the devs have squandered most of the subs the game has ever had by trying to cater to people like you.

Cater to people like me? Maybe you haven't been following the thread but I am, by no means, a hard-core mythic raider, nor am I asking to turn all raids into mythic raids. All I'm saying is that we don't need four modes of difficulty and if people can't clear normal mode then maybe they should stick to other activities in the game? Also, this is getting off topic. The title of the thread was about there being too many guilds and not enough people to fill them all, and these guilds aren't willing to budge when it comes to recruitment.

[Marrilaife]

consider that letting the poor thing die and letting its members find happy new homes might be the best solution for literally everyone ;-)

"Literally everyone" means probably "all ranged, a couple of healers and maybe 1 really skilled melee", everyone else will just get declined from the remaining guilds because "no spots" "don't need your class" "no point bringing another, we already have (your spec)" etc. Finding a "happy new home" is often a path paved with thorns and that's why people often stick to their guilds if those guilds aren't completely horrible.

Well, unless you're a ranged dps. Many of them have no qualms to guild hop because they're always in demand and will always find "a happy new home".

Also another problem is something I saw recently on trade chat, probably an outcome of guild disbanding, a group of 6-7 players looking for a new home, probably group of friends, they probably have close to zero chance finding a guild that will take a package deal of 6-7 people at once. No one wants to take a risk, no one wants to deal with cliques or restructure their team to fit such a big addition. So yeah, a group of people who can't sustain their own guild will have to split, and you'd say ok, but they still can play m+ and so on together? Well not really if they get into guilds with different raid times and hours they might have less chances to play with each other because everyone will be busy or free in different time windows.