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  1. #121
    Herald of the Titans Sylreick's Avatar
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    It makes sense, honestly. They have a lot of work and posts to go through, and even if you have good ideas, they can get diluted by a massive wall of text. And stating something as general as "WoD is bad" isn't helpful, because there's no problem to find or solve with that. Why is it bad, what parts are bad, what can be changed? The statement is too generalized to do anything about. Posting walls of text around problems that exist is bad because they have to sort through all the word vomit to get to the point, if there even is a point to begin with (if not, they'd have to reverse engineer the problem.. like GC was saying). It's a lot of inefficient effort and added work to go through.

    Just state the problem you have with something, and be as direct and descriptive as possible about it. It can be short or long, but stick to the point or the point will be lost. A long post about a problem will likely be 75% wasted time, 25% actual point. A short, general comment would be 100% wasted time, as nothing can be done about it, there's nothing to work with.
    "Believing something is not an accomplishment. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because “strength of belief” is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. Listen to any “die-hard” conservative or liberal talk about their deepest beliefs and you are listening to somebody who will never hear what you say on any matter that matters to them — unless you believe the same. Wherever there is a belief, there is a closed door."

  2. #122
    He brings up a really big problem about the code base, as a developer I feel like everyone thinks they know exactly what they are talking about when it comes to the code even though they've never seen blizzards code. At this point in time blizzard is probably working with some really really great spaghetti code that has been strung together since Vanilla, I can't speak to how much refactoring they may or may not have done.

    Something as simple as the backpack probably isn't as simple as changing a numerical integer value that is what the backpack bases its capacity off of. This can result in extremely long development projects depending on what they are changing and how many things are touched by said thing.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Im not convinced lack of succint player feedback has been an issue. The feedback is their its.just not.in agreement with what the devs think is best.
    .
    What's the point of asking for feedback if the devs are just going to do whatever the hell they want regardless? Is it just to let people vent and feel like they're effecting the game when they're really not? Or are we meant to believe(as some fanboys post) that Blizzard ALWAYS knows what's best for the game, even in the face of evidence to the contrary?

  4. #124
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What's the point of asking for feedback if the devs are just going to do whatever the hell they want regardless? Is it just to let people vent and feel like they're effecting the game when they're really not? Or are we meant to believe(as some fanboys post) that Blizzard ALWAYS knows what's best for the game, even in the face of evidence to the contrary?
    It's not to say they never listen to feedback. Legion is a case where they actually did. They provided a wealth of progression for non raiders in non raid activities. Exactly what WoD was missing. It's just their are some cows that are apparently too fucking sacred. Rng and no flying being the biggest two. Actually even on RNG, their just so fucking contrarian. Okay rng is bad for legendaries cause it's just another farm it's not exciting but AP is the shit?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I have no real idea how it is now but everything I've ever seen about the CM job at Blizzard places forum stuff well down the list of things they do. Perhaps their moderation staff flags things for them but no group of just a few CM's is going to look at everything posted there given the list of their other responsibilities. What I posted earlier applies here as well. You're a CM trying to collect and summarize forum feedback for the devs and you come across some multi-page post that will take half an hour to read and another hour just to boil down the points to be summarized. Do you look for shorter posts that take less time? Sure. You bet you do. Maybe you get back to that and maybe you don't.

    They very likely have a lot of back channels to reliable people for feedback as well.
    Then that's probably a flaw in the system. Disregarding feedback just because its length is a pretty bad bias. It actually mirrors the forums themselves in that way. How many times have we ALL seen an amazingly well written post get dismissed with "TL: DR"? And if all they're listening to is a short-list of back channels, doesn't that risk becoming an echo chamber? It would certainly explain a lot of the weird changes and "fixes" we see coming out of Blizzard over the years.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-12-12 at 10:52 PM.

  6. #126
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I have no real idea how it is now but everything I've ever seen about the CM job at Blizzard places forum stuff well down the list of things they do. Perhaps their moderation staff flags things for them but no group of just a few CM's is going to look at everything posted there given the list of their other responsibilities. What I posted earlier applies here as well. You're a CM trying to collect and summarize forum feedback for the devs and you come across some multi-page post that will take half an hour to read and another hour just to boil down the points to be summarized. Do you look for shorter posts that take less time? Sure. You bet you do. Maybe you get back to that and maybe you don't.

    They very likely have a lot of back channels to reliable people for feedback as well.
    Oh come on. There's a filtering mechanism in place... up votes. If Im a time limited CM and part of my job is to forward good feedback, I'n starting with looking at the highly rated posts in the class forums. Some will be trash but some are very very good posts from people who know the class very well.

    But here's the thing - if no one is going to actuallylook at most feedback, QUIT ASKING FOR IT during pre-release. Don't do alpha and beta fora. But the 'not too long and not too short. Enough detail but not too much' complaint is bullshit.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It's not to say they never listen to feedback. Legion is a case where they actually did. They provided a wealth of progression for non raiders in non raid activities. Exactly what WoD was missing. It's just their are some cows that are apparently too fucking sacred. Rng and no flying being the biggest two. Actually even on RNG, their just so fucking contrarian. Okay rng is bad for legendaries cause it's just another farm it's not exciting but AP is the shit?
    Exactly! It's like when they said they don't want to provide a linear method of obtaining legendaries(like with a token system) as protection against bad luck on legendary drops, because it would feel "too grindy." But when you look at the raw amount of grinding for AP, for titanforged, and specifically to get Legendaries, it makes you wonder.

  8. #128
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Exactly! It's like when they said they don't want to provide a linear method of obtaining legendaries(like with a token system) as protection against bad luck on legendary drops, because it would feel "too grindy." But when you look at the raw amount of grinding for AP, for titanforged, and specifically to get Legendaries, it makes you wonder.
    Yea it's asinine. I mean if the legendaries were on a vendor at least you could see it and it would be something you knew you would obtain eventually. Like it would be a clear goal and expectation you could set. PERFECT. That's exactly what AP is all about. It's exactly what the game needed. We had that before with the valor vendor but they got rid of it because it was too damn good apparently. I don't understand what the difference is if you put the gear on a vendor. But I mean they seemingly never answer this question. That's the problem. You can ask them hey why cant legendaries be on a vendor, theyll answer about being too much of a grind but you never get to rebut that bullshit so they move on. In fact they changed the explanation to something stupid about players having a great story to tell about finding a legendary which is even more asinine!!!! Here's my story: It dropped from normal illygnoth. I'm fucking deen koontz of this shit.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #129
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Having legendaries come from a vendor is a stupid and flawed concept, I don't understand why people keep bringing it up. I don't think people realize that people won't buy the weaker legendaries and will instead only target the BiS ones, which completely defeats the purpose of the entire legendary system and is what Blizzard doesn't want. That is, unless there's a "mystery" system in place and the legendary that you can buy is completely random.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  10. #130
    we should start a poll if we want his post posted on mmo-champ at all
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    wE doN't kNoW wHaT pLaYeRs WaNt FoR cHarAcTeR CrEaTiOn MoDeLs

  11. #131
    Enough with Ghostcrawler quotes. He literally hasn't worked on WoW for over 3 years now. Let it go.

  12. #132
    Deleted
    Why are we quoting and listening to League developers? When he was relevant in WoW sure but League is not a well designed game. Hell, Dota 2 has a far healthier meta even with huge amounts of additional complexity. LoL had nearly half the heroes picked than Dota had in the recent tournaments.

    These are the same guys that think they should police the meta themselves rather than let the players figure it out.
    Last edited by mmocd786cabdc9; 2016-12-12 at 11:34 PM.

  13. #133
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaZDaZ View Post
    These are the same guys that think they should police the meta themselves rather than let the players figure it out.
    translation: "Riot Games sucks ass because they punish players for trolling."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  14. #134
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    translation: "Riot Games sucks ass because they punish players for trolling."
    Play Dota and then you'll understand why their stance is ridiculous. Sorry you couldn't understand what it means.

  15. #135
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Then that's probably a flaw in the system. Disregarding feedback just because its length is a pretty bad bias. It actually mirrors the forums themselves in that way. How many times have we ALL seen an amazingly well written post get dismissed with "TL: DR"? And if all they're listening to is a short-list of back channels, doesn't that risk becoming an echo chamber? It would certainly explain a lot of the weird changes and "fixes" we see coming out of Blizzard over the years.
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Oh come on. There's a filtering mechanism in place... up votes. If Im a time limited CM and part of my job is to forward good feedback, I'n starting with looking at the highly rated posts in the class forums. Some will be trash but some are very very good posts from people who know the class very well.

    But here's the thing - if no one is going to actuallylook at most feedback, QUIT ASKING FOR IT during pre-release. Don't do alpha and beta fora. But the 'not too long and not too short. Enough detail but not too much' complaint is bullshit.
    The thing is, apart from when Celestalon starts up a thread for theorycrafting, they keep repeating over and over that the best feedback for them is how does X feel and why. What's fun and what's not fun? What would be fun? It's all touchy-feely and that sort of thing can often be done in less than 100 words. As for their upvote system, bleah. I wouldn't rely on that for anything. Too many trolls there and not nearly enough in the way of moderation.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #136
    Deleted
    dunno what.
    Last edited by mmoceff7c3a265; 2016-12-13 at 09:25 AM.

  17. #137
    I kinda agree with him. I mean there are so many people who think word count= content. It's really bad on the class forums especially and a lot of it feels like those "when you're submission is tonight and you need to hit the word limit" memes and goes into weird places sometimes. I literally read Windwalker feedback that by the end of the post was talking about the new brewmaster magic reduction talent a few days ago. The strangest thing was all the people posting "OMG so true, send this to the devs" like they were reading a thread that actually made a point.

  18. #138
    Developers should at least heard the top players(mythic raids and pvp players) so the balance would be maybe better and some class won't be hitting by the bat of useless like shamans in many expasions and right now warlock which even with 2 specs you still do the less damage than a hybrid

  19. #139
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    The thing is, apart from when Celestalon starts up a thread for theorycrafting, they keep repeating over and over that the best feedback for them is how does X feel and why. What's fun and what's not fun? What would be fun? It's all touchy-feely and that sort of thing can often be done in less than 100 words. As for their upvote system, bleah. I wouldn't rely on that for anything. Too many trolls there and not nearly enough in the way of moderation.
    150 words! TOO LONG!!! And sure, up votes have issues but it's a decent first filter for CMs to use. You've fallen into the perfect being the enemy of the good trap.

    Also, sorry, but if they have forums for pre-release testing and class fora then pay attention and don't whine when your customers care enough to share their feelings about what works and what doesn't simply because it's not perfect. Know when a game developer should really worry about customer feedback? When there isn't much.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Enough with Ghostcrawler quotes. He literally hasn't worked on WoW for over 3 years now. Let it go.
    I think his insights are valuable, and I really like reading what he has to say. The problem with this one is, he gave critique about the community, which has certainly ruffled some feathers. But I remember not too long ago people talking about how he was a really great guy who did a good job during Cata.

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