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  1. #141
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    yes because 'wod is bad" odsent tell you why, its just "blah is bad"
    what you shoudl say is wod is bad because
    the garrisons made us feel anti social by making it better to be alone in your hall
    the massive lack of content made it boreing to play
    and the story was very weird and convoluted


    the differance is when its

    "this sucked because of this that sucked because of that and we didn't like this cause this"

    compared to

    I was walking to my car when I noticed my pants were on fire. I turned to my friend and said, "I think were going to need an oven and fast."
    He grabbed me with his soggy fingers and said.. "Snap out of it, Man."
    Then he proceeded to chant and walk in circles around me.
    I looked down, My pants were still on fire, but by this time it had spread to my Uterus and three other ligaments. I was getting pretty agitated that no one seemed to care about my third degree burns, or my soon imminent death, but I went along with his plan still hoping he'd manage to save me through his voo-doo witchcraft.
    After I came out of my trance from the fire I noticed that I was now in the kitchen of my grandma's house baking a cake..
    I Screamed "WHAT THE F***?"
    My Grandma ran in and slapped the s*** outta me for cursing.
    Then she proceeded to say, "I swear if you talk like that 5 more times, I'll beat the living s*** outta you."
    I was quite confused as to what was going on and what I did to deserve this true life mad lib. I just stood there in silence with a look of uttermost confusion.. and I starred at the women who had once been a kind sweet old lady, who wouldn't even kill a baby piglet, now turned into this vicious beast of a monster with veins protruding from her neck like a porcupines quills on a midsummer day.
    She gasped, and then with the blink of an eye turned back into the sweet old lady I had once known.
    "Would you like some cookies, dear?"
    "Ummm Yes, grandma."
    As she went to retrieve the cookies, I was planning my escape.. Looking around pondering what unimaginable thing would happen next if I stayed. As my grandma neared the corner with her plate of cookies, I ran to the door as fast as my burning legs would take me.
    As I made my silent escape I heard grandma yell, "You forgot your cookies dear"
    Little did she know I didn't give a s*** about those cookies. As I ran I thought about my previous life and how this whole day had been more interesting than my Whole entire life on earth had.. I began to ponder if this was karma kicking my a** for just sitting on the laptop all day typing short stories for little to no pay. When I decided to stop and catch my breath, I wiped the sweat from my face and looked up to see what else this new world had to offer.
    Far off in the distance I could see a huge building, maybe a hotel or some sort of jail. I wasn't too sure.. but I marked that location off my list, the last thing I needed was to go to a jail and get killed by a bunch of mobsters.. I mean Hell my pants were already on Fire.
    I decided to turn to my left and see what my next choice would be.
    There were flying cantaloupes, rainbows and songs of happiness near by, I mean I was a little frightened by the flying fruit but I'll take this any day over Prison inmates.
    I skipped closer and closer to the festivities and when I arrived I seen all my friends I had went to high school with there were holding hands and singing Kumbayah around the camp ice.. Yes It was a giant block of ice situated on three wood logs.. I felt much more comforted here than I did at my grandmas. I took a deep breath of relief and I thought Maybe, this day is getting better. I joined hands and with Germany and Tokyo and began to sing with everyone else, but as soon as I Belched out my voice changed to an annoying high pitched squeal.. Similar to ringing in your ears.
    Everyone turned toward me and gave me the death stare and I knew I had screwed up once again, they all walked in slow motion towards me saying the same familiar chant I had heard earlier, before anyone could reach me I awoke in a frantic sweaty rush in my bed.. My legs were no longer on fire and I felt slightly normal again. I noticed that my mom, a preacher, and several other family members were standing around me sobbing and chanting.. I said. "What's going on?" They informed me that I had been possessed by a spirit named Robert that liked to make people crazy by making there dreams seem similar to real life, only completely insane. They told me that I had been very lucky to be through such a traumatic experience and live to tell about it, without needing to be put in a psych ward. I turned to the preacher and said.
    "I think were gonna need an oven and fast."
    That's when they knew I was a goner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    Always put youself in the position of another guy. Imagine a guy who wants to hire an employee. He has a pile of resumees lying around. After 20 of them, even subconsciously, he is going to favour the short and sweet ones, and be annoyed by any guy who wrote a 10-pages long essay, even if it's impressive.

    Same with feedback. "WoD sucks" maybe too much, okay, but a guy who enters forums and posts "Garrisons suck", "Bring back reforging ffs" and "Why does Arms play like shit now" are a blessing to any guy designated to gathering feedback. I mean, after 6 hours of dabbling in WoW the last thing you want to do is read another 5 pages of exact sims and numbers showing how this or that spec should perform. Three concise messages? That's my work done, mailing that to devs right away.

  3. #143
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    GC hired celetalon and holinka. What he says means nothing.
    ironically what he says will be worth more than what you say

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    Is it possible for WoW player feedback to be too long despite the systems that Blizzard has in place? Or is this just another copout on top of all the other excuses when it comes to the issue of player feedback?
    It's not really a cop out, nor is it the great truth about player feedback. It's just a random thing GC felt like saying.

    FWIW, the statement - "player feedback is nearly always too long" - is, of course, wrong, most feedback is short - and not very useful. But that just illustrates that GC meant no serious points, he just thought like mentioning that sometimes feedback is long and sometimes it is prohibitively long to read. Ie, if you were GC, you wouldn't be able to follow all major threads on the official forums / reddit / here / some other site, plus email, plus reports. Yes, so. He doesn't mean anything by that.

    It's a non-event.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    This was good. :-)

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Always put youself in the position of another guy. Imagine a guy who wants to hire an employee. He has a pile of resumees lying around. After 20 of them, even subconsciously, he is going to favour the short and sweet ones, and be annoyed by any guy who wrote a 10-pages long essay, even if it's impressive.

    Same with feedback. "WoD sucks" maybe too much, okay, but a guy who enters forums and posts "Garrisons suck", "Bring back reforging ffs" and "Why does Arms play like shit now" are a blessing to any guy designated to gathering feedback. I mean, after 6 hours of dabbling in WoW the last thing you want to do is read another 5 pages of exact sims and numbers showing how this or that spec should perform. Three concise messages? That's my work done, mailing that to devs right away.
    Simple thing. Feedback - is essentially personal opinion. Bad thing - personal opinion isn't treated as constructive feedback, because it's subjective and biased. In order to make in constructive, you need to prove, that your opinion isn't subjective and biased - you need to provide facts. Otherwise other players would bury your subjective opinion under ton of their subjective opinions - "it's your subjective opinion and you're minority" argument is most popular one. Long experience of forum posting just shows, that if your post wouldn't be complete enough - you would need to explain it and prove your point to ever single player in thread, who doesn't share your opinion. Simply because they usually don't read anything, except OP - it's L2Read problem. Also there are many trolls, that use all kinds of fallacies to compromise your post - you need to counter them all. And it causes cycled discussions. Why should I waste my time, doing it? That's why I try to make OP as complete, as possible. In order to do it, I need to analyze problem as deeply, as possible and provide and much objective data, as I can.

    Example: If I would write post, where I would say, that I don't like no flying, cuz I personally hate this playstyle - it wouldn't be constructive, cuz it's my personal subjective opinion. Fallacies, like "it's your subjective opinion", "it's MMO", "you're minority" and "Blizzard know it better" would be possible. Even if I would explain, why I hate such gameplay (for me forced competition - is major problem with no flying) - it wouldn't be constructive anyway, cuz what I hate - other players may love. Same fallacies would be still possible. It would be constructive, only if I would provide info about researches, that show, that only around 25% of players prefer competition, so forcing competition on players - alienating 75% of your playerbase. That's why Wow has only ~3M subs now - not 12M. But this would be very long post - where all sources of data would be provided + I would explain, why I'm one of those players, who hate no flying and why exactly I hate it.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-12-13 at 06:03 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  6. #146
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    GC hired celetalon and holinka. What he says means nothing.
    How do you know this? Was GC working at Blizzard HR at the time?!?
    That's certainly much more than I never knew, I thought he was a dev.


    On topic: Players tend to think player feedback is The Most Important Thing ever. However, it's just one tiny bit of the feedback loop in development.
    It should never be as important as we'd like to think it is - end-user opinions matter - but not in every subject. Other things go first (business objective, stakeholder objectives, backlog owner prios etc) - the end user feedback is just after-market customer support.

    Managing the player expectations is very important though and that's on area where Blizzard is struggling - this often translates to players thinking "Blizzard doesn't give a shit" - this is most likely due to the huge scale of their playerbase - but they really should hire CMs that are a) really close to the dev team b) have the community communication as their main job. Currently the CMs have so many things to on their plate, their communication to the playerbase suffers and leads to long discussions, like the one Lore has been posting lately.
    Last edited by mmoc0e47cbaaf5; 2016-12-13 at 06:03 AM.

  7. #147
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saninicus View Post
    Because people like you jacking it to every word he says?
    Nope, good guess though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz
    MMO champion for example used to be the center of WoW theorycrafting

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish Trombone View Post
    How do you know this? Was GC working at Blizzard HR at the time?!?
    That's certainly much more than I never knew, I thought he was a dev.


    On topic: Players tend to think player feedback is The Most Important Thing ever. However, it's just one tiny bit of the feedback loop in development.
    It should never be as important as we'd like to think it is - end-user opinions matter - but not in every subject. Other things go first (business objective, stakeholder objectives, backlog owner prios etc) - the end user feedback is just after-market customer support.

    Managing the player expectations is very important though and that's on area where Blizzard is struggling - this often translates to players thinking "Blizzard doesn't give a shit" - this is most likely due to the huge scale of their playerbase - but they really should hire CMs that are a) really close to the dev team b) have the community communication as their main job. Currently the CMs have so many things to on their plate, their communication to the playerbase suffers and leads to long discussions, like the one Lore has been posting lately.
    The real thing, that shows, how much Blizzard care about their players - is how their support currently works. When you send ticket on every problem - by default you always get cookie-cutter auto reply first. I.e. they think, that there is a chance, that you wouldn't want to solve your problem after that - less load on their support team. And only when you reopen ticket and mention, that this support is actually PAID service, you pay your sub fee for and that you've never got any real help from support, so why should you pay your money for it then, if they can't help you with ANY INGAME PROBLEM? Only then they react and do something.

    This crap happened, when I experienced problem with wrong weapon type, available to my Priest - agi daggers, so instead of getting weapon, that was useful for me, I wasted 10K Appexis (one day of work) on item, that was worth 11g only. I had wrote a ticket, and after one day of waiting they responded with "We don't exchange items. If you think, that something is wrong - submit bug via form". Yeah... But when I mentioned, that I actually pay for this service - GM contacted me almost immediately. And gave me my token back. We were talking for about 15 minutes. Greatest question was "This question may be incorrect, but why haven't you bought Legion?". I explained, why - we talked about it a little bit. But only several minutes later, I realized, that GM wasn't actually trying to get feedback from me - he was trying to convince me to buy Legion, lol.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2016-12-13 at 06:38 AM.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish Trombone View Post
    How do you know this? Was GC working at Blizzard HR at the time?!?
    That's certainly much more than I never knew, I thought he was a dev.
    https://twitter.com/occupygstreet/st...87307801067520

    GC: Spoiler: I hired both @ Celestalon and @ Holinka and for good reason.

    Your usual stance of "everyone who says anything half-bad / seemingly bad about Blizzard / former Blizzard are haters" fails you again. Woohoo, you don't know much, what a surprise.
    Last edited by rda; 2016-12-13 at 06:47 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    That really does feel like their excuse here. "Oh, you didn't give us enough information, so we can't act on it." "Oh, you gave us too much information and there are only too many hours in the day to go through this information."

    Sadly, I agree with the commenters before that said it's ego that gets in the way. Blizzard is notorious for not listening, having a "Just wait until live, beta tests aren't enough of a sample size and we think it'll be fine on live." only to have it, surprise surprise, not be. They've been doing it for as long as I can remember, and it really does seem like an ego thing where the players have been right nearly 99% of the time, yet Blizzard in their "wisdom" didn't listen and launched a product that ended up buggy, imbalanced, and just downright broken to a point it never should have been if they had just listened to their player base.

  11. #151
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    I mean really, who at this point gives a shit about Greg Street's opinion on WoW? His input is over now.

    This is however the corollary to the whine that "Geez, Blizz can't do nothin' right. Do 'X' to the game and the players bitch. Do 'Y' to the game and they bitch too. Poor Blizz."

    BTW - ALL of your posts are too long here, including this one. So what say we STFU and GTFO of this string?

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish Trombone View Post
    Currently the CMs have so many things to on their plate, their communication to the playerbase suffers and leads to long discussions, like the one Lore has been posting lately.
    Not trying to make a big point - there's no big point to make in this thread - but that's just another example of you talking about things you don't understand. What is it that the CMs have on their plate? Humor me. What are they busy with?

  13. #153
    The irony is is that when GC worked for Blizzard, his posts were often THE most verbose posts in any given thread he was starting or replying to. That's cute.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    Fun fact: There is a way to say more than a single line but less than a novel

    Really, feedback shouldn't ever use paragraphs. Organized bullet points for each issue that you want to provide feedback for works best.

  15. #155
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    Sounds about right.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    yes because 'wod is bad" odsent tell you why, its just "blah is bad"
    what you shoudl say is wod is bad because
    the garrisons made us feel anti social by making it better to be alone in your hall
    the massive lack of content made it boreing to play
    and the story was very weird and convoluted


    the differance is when its

    "this sucked because of this that sucked because of that and we didn't like this cause this"

    compared to

    I was walking to my car when I noticed my pants were on fire. I turned to my friend and said, "I think were going to need an oven and fast."
    ...
    I dunno, literature lessons at school were teaching me, that if I write some statements - they should be logically connected. Other people aren't telepathists - they can't read your thoughts. There are conclusions, that can be self-obvious for you, but for other people they seem, like they're taken out of nowhere. That's why when you make some statement, you need to explain, where it comes from. And "story of your life" is often very important part for developers, that allows them to understand, where your thoughts come from. Because, as I've already said, you don't have to be specialist in product, you're using. You provide feedback, how you can - it's up to devs, to sort it out.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeline10 View Post
    The irony is is that when GC worked for Blizzard, his posts were often THE most verbose posts in any given thread he was starting or replying to. That's cute.
    He wasn't submitting feedback to developers.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    "WoD is bad." - Omgosh! Too short! Non-constructive Criticism!
    "[Long, detailed complain about WoD]" - Ugh... Too Long; Didn't Read.
    Too bad there isn't a middle ground between those.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    "story of your life" is often very important part for developers, that allows them to understand, where your thoughts come from.
    That's what you're getting wrong. No it's not. You need to be able to describe a playing experience in a concise and logical way, and stick to concrete and tangible matters. If you can't do that, your feedback is too long, meandering and simply not useful.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Pull My Finger View Post
    That's what you're getting wrong. No it's not. You need to be able to describe a playing experience in a concise and logical way, and stick to concrete and tangible matters. If you can't do that, your feedback is too long, meandering and simply not useful.
    It's a bit boring to be reading these things. Perhaps we need an illustration.

    Try doing that. Try writing a short and concise feedback on, let's say, class pruning or legendaries or whatever you want fixed. Please write a paragraph explaining your problem. Then I'll pick it apart with "not enough detail" and similar things and we'll all have a laugh and see that this does not work at all.

    The truth: GC just said something he felt like saying, he didn't mean much by it. Feedback must be just detailed enough to be good. Sometimes that means tons of detail. Even frequently. That's just life, there's no way around it.

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