ACLU sues town of 2,000 over Christmas tree decoration.

[Jagscorpion]

the issue will be the cross itself, not the tree.

This is true, but the cross is part of a larger display, which has to be judged on the specifics according to previous scotus decisions if I recall correctly.

[Spl4sh3r]

"The Origin of Christmas Tree"
"Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshipers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning “Christmas Trees”. Pagans had long worshiped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church."

Source: Clement Miles, Christmas Customs and Traditions: Their History and Significance, New York: Dover Publications, 1976, pp. 178, 263-271.

It's not that hard to Google shit now is it? No one gives a shit about the tree because the trees have nothing to do with Christianity, the Cross is another story entirely. If you feel like enlightening yourself instead of spewing bullshit drabble that's been force fed down our throats since birth, go ahead and buy it. It reads like an academic paper but it's well worth the read https://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Cus.../dp/0486233545

I know it's not specifically tied to Christianity, but as of right now I don't know any other religion that uses the Christmas Tree during one of its' religious holidays. So what I said isn't that far off. The origin doesn't matter if no other religion isn't actually using the Christmas Tree.

[GennGreymane]

This is true, but the cross is part of a larger display, which has to be judged on the specifics according to previous scotus decisions if I recall correctly.

chances are they will just take it down if they havent already and replace it with a traditional star or something. People watch too many court and lawyer shows, most of these things end in a very mundane way.

[Jagscorpion]

I would also like to point out that separation of church and state tends to convey the wrong message. If we look at the government immediately after the constitution was ratified the government officials were largely fine with religion mixed with government, ie. they opened some meetings with prayers, etc... (been a while since I researched so my knowledge is hazy) The issue they were concerned with was establishment of national religion. The devil is in the details of course, but I find it irksome when people come in and are like "separation of church and state y'all" like that explains everything and anyone who would dare to suggest that there are degrees of religious expression that are allowed even to government officials is somehow advocating mass oppression.

[Deleted]

I know it's not specifically tied to Christianity, but as of right now I don't know any other religion that uses the Christmas Tree during one of its' religious holidays. So what I said isn't that far off. The origin doesn't matter if no other religion isn't actually using the Christmas Tree.

If you know then why the hell would you say "All of Christmas is from Christianity, it's even in the name CHRIST-mas." And now it's not? If the origin doesn't matter then why bring it up in the first place?

[Spl4sh3r]

If you know then why the hell would you say "All of Christmas is from Christianity, it's even in the name CHRIST-mas." And now it's not? If the origin doesn't matter then why bring it up in the first place?

I am speaking about currently, I never spoke about the origin of things. Since I even know Jesus isn't born on December 25th, which is kind of the reason they celebrate Christmas to begin with.

[cuafpr]

Freedom of religion necessarily includes freedom from religion, otherwise what's preventing religious conversion "wars?"

No, b.c. forced conversion would not be freedom of, cause its forcing you to believe a certain way.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

Except that it isn't, it never was, the Founding Fathers explicitly intended it to NOT be such, and so forth and so on.

This concept is thoroughly bullshit, and is just a means by which Christians try and enforce their practices on others. It's religious fundamentalism, and we don't consider it magically "okay" when Christians do it.

Do you celebrate Christmas?

[Captain Proton]

I am speaking about currently, I never spoke about the origin of things. Since I even know Jesus isn't born on December 25th, which is kind of the reason they celebrate Christmas to begin with.

IS FROM, refers to the origin. Your words.

[Mistame]

The "irreparable harm" bit is enough to shake your head at this story. If this town is set up like most, then the tree is probably on the town square. Typically, the square is surrounded by privately-owned businesses. The solution is simple: The city council moves the tree to a privately-owned lot on the square and puts up a plaque that dedicates the tree to this Tompkins idiot and the scum that makes up the ACLU.

[Chrysia]

No, b.c. forced conversion would not be freedom of, cause its forcing you to believe a certain way.

Right, but that means that you necessarily must protect people from manipulation by religious authorities in non-voluntary situations. Freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

[Bodakane]

But my point is I don't understand how a tree (and a cross) is really causing harm to anyone; or how xmas stuff on public lands lead to theocratic law. There is no slippery slope here. Just a imagined one.

The simple fact of the matter is that every time the government is allowed to favor one religion over others without a fight, is another brick towards building an official religion for the US.

You not understanding sit or not isn't relevant.

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Do you celebrate Christmas?

The fuck does that have to do with anything?

Do you eat pizza? Yes, should the government force everyone to eat pizza?

[Endus]

By that logic though, you would also need to forbid muslim women to wear religious garbs while working at government institutions. The mean whereof you practice your religion should not be of importance by deciding neutrality. If you don't want that, you need to tolerate crosses (which are arguably easier to ignore than persons).

Nope. That's personal expression. We're talking about GOVERNMENT endorsement of a religion.

Do you celebrate Christmas?

What the heck does that have to do with anything?

[zEmini]

The simple fact of the matter is that every time the government is allowed to favor one religion over others without a fight, is another brick towards building an official religion for the US.

You not understanding sit or not isn't relevant.

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The fuck does that have to do with anything?

Do you eat pizza? Yes, should the government force everyone to eat pizza?

If the towns people are in favor of it, then get a life and don't visit the town. What part of this isn't your business do you not understand? How tolerant of you? Maybe a lot of the townsfolk are Christians and want there towns to be more festive.

And a Cross on a tree isn't forcing people to celebrate christmas.

[Chrysia]

If the towns people are in favor of it, then get a life and don't visit the town. What part of this isn't your business do you not understand? How tolerant of you? Maybe a lot of the townsfolk are Christians and want there towns to be more festive.

And a Cross on a tree isn't forcing people to celebrate christmas.

A cross on city property is the city endorsing Christianity over other religions. It has fuck-all to do with Christmas.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

The fuck does that have to do with anything?

Do you eat pizza? Yes, should the government force everyone to eat pizza?

Oh that logic.

If the cafeteria in a government building offers pizza, does that mean they are to trying force everyone to eat pizza, or endorsing pizza?

The point of a Christmas Tree, the purpose of "Christmas Vacation", the acknowledgment of this specific day by the government as a day off are all based on religion.

Getting upset about a Cross on top of a Christmas Tree is pretty odd given the overwhelming amount of acknowledgement the government already gives to Christmas.

I am an Atheist by the way, so no religious agenda here.

[Chrysia]

Oh that logic.

If the cafeteria in a government building offers pizza, does that mean they are to trying force everyone to eat pizza, or endorsing pizza?

The point of a Christmas Tree, the purpose of "Christmas Vacation", the acknowledgment of this specific day by the government as a day off are all based on religion.

Getting upset about a Cross on top of a Christmas Tree is pretty odd given the overwhelming amount of acknowledgement the government already gives to Christmas.

I am an Atheist by the way, so no religious agenda here.

They actually argued in court (successfully) that the government was recognizing the secular, non-specific version of Christmas that has basically fuck all to do with the birth of Christ.

[Bodakane]

If the towns people are in favor of it, then get a life and don't visit the town. What part of this isn't your business do you not understand? How tolerant of you? Maybe a lot of the townsfolk are Christians and want there towns to be more festive.

And a Cross on a tree isn't forcing people to celebrate christmas.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over and over. Its like you are covering your ears and screaming "lalalalala I can't hear you".

All you've done to anything posted about this, is effectively say "nope" then repeat the same thing.

If the government instilled martial law in a small town I don't live in, for no good reason, should I be upset? Yes or no?

[zEmini]

A cross on city property is the city endorsing Christianity over other religions. It has fuck-all to do with Christmas.

It still isn't causing harm. Nobody is being accused of being a witch and burned at the stake.

If the majority of the townsfolk want a fucking cross on their tree; they can put a fucking cross on their tree.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over and over. Its like you are covering your ears and screaming "lalalalala I can't hear you".

All you've done to anything posted about this, is effectively say "nope" then repeat the same thing.

If the government instilled martial law in a small town I don't live in, for no good reason, should I be upset? Yes or no?

YOu are the one not listening. What business is it of yours? Martial law and a stupid cross is a long stretch bro.

[Darsithis]

The US is a Christian nation.

Don't like it? Feel free to leave.

No it isn't. Most of the founding fathers were atheists and deists, and intended for a clear separation of church and state. The US has no official religion, and NO religion should ever, ever have a say in law and custom.

In regards to the article, it's pretty clear: the Christian cross on government property using government funds is endorsing a specific religion.

What is stupid, though, is his nonsense about the pain and suffering it causes him. It's enough to take care of it being a violation of separation of church and state, no need to make a prat of yourself.