Enough with the melee hate

[Bullettime]

Anyone who complains about melee in 3s hasnt played against balance/frost mage as melee.

Balance and Frost at least have to build for it. Certain melee right now are just frustrating by being near unpeelable monsters that just combo everything else with a brainless tunnel strat.

[Deleted]

"and warlocks can easily tank 2 melees if they play smart."

I stopped reading there. If you really believe that, you have no clue about the game. If I'm lucky I get to cast a gateway, which I can use once every 90 sec and I have my portal every 30 sec. Not only am I stunned half the time when being trained, there are 9001 slows that are applied passively. No fucking way I can tank 2 melee for more than 15 sec.

No clue at all.

[FarmI3oy]

"and warlocks can easily tank 2 melees if they play smart."

I stopped reading there. If you really believe that, you have no clue about the game. If I'm lucky I get to cast a gateway, which I can use once every 90 sec and I have my portal every 30 sec. Not only am I stunned half the time when being trained, there are 9001 slows that are applied passively. No fucking way I can tank 2 melee for more than 15 sec.

No clue at all.

I don't know dude... I've read some of your past posts and I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering why I'm even on these forums. People like you spreading nonsensical misinformed crap about the game is just sickening.

[Deleted]

I don't know dude... I've read some of your past posts and I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering why I'm even on these forums. People like you spreading nonsensical misinformed crap about the game is just sickening.

Please tell me what part of what I said is "nonsensical misinformed crap". Or you can say absolutely nothing in as many words as you did.

[Irian]

I don't know dude... I've read some of your past posts and I'm sitting here scratching my head wondering why I'm even on these forums. People like you spreading nonsensical misinformed crap about the game is just sickening.

Nothing he said wasn't true. Warlocks in a 1v1 situation are pretty well off if it's a controlled fight, but warlocks get absolutely melted by strong pressure. Self-healing doesn't mean shit when you're locked down and your defensives don't do anything to save you from being focused like Ice Block, Aspect of the Turtle or druid kiting can.

Warlocks can't take on melee 2v1, at least not two melee worth a damn. That's almost laughable to even consider, warlocks desperately need someone to peel for them in a group setting. I didn't bother stalking the guy's posts but at least that post is absolutely true when it comes to warlocks in PvP.

[Volitar]

At least casters have to set up. Melee have just mindlessly chase and tunnel something down. You can't kick melee or los melee.

[FarmI3oy]

Please tell me what part of what I said is "nonsensical misinformed crap". Or you can say absolutely nothing in as many words as you did.

In another thread you said you 1v1 dueled a fury warrior and lost. Furthermore, the duel took 45 seconds and his HP was 100%. You're literally spreading nonsensical misinformed crap because you have no clue what you are doing.

[Deleted]

In another thread you said you 1v1 dueled a fury warrior and lost. Furthermore, the duel took 45 seconds and his HP was 100%. You're literally spreading nonsensical misinformed crap because you have no clue what you are doing.

Not exactly a duel, but a one on one fight in a bg, and yes I did lose to him. I checked my "enemy healing done" on skada and it showed 6.1 mil healing from Bloodthirst. Maybe he wasn't exactly 100%, but he ended the fight with 90%+ hp. I had my instant dots running on him 100% of the time and had pretty good uptime on UA, used my Unending Resolve, portal, but nope, lost that fight. Sure I was mad, but in no possible situation should a warrior be able to outheal an affliction warlock's dps.

That was kind of anecdotal evidence for the imbalance in pvp currently. Besides I'm not sure how this is nonsensical or misinformation, because this actually happened to me. Whether it is crap or not is your opinion.

Not to mention the fact that it's completely unrelated to the comment I made in this thread. Just shows how nonsensical you are yourself.

[Zanyuki]

The problem is not that Melee are overpowered or that Range are underpowered.

Melee does not have to do much now to stay on their target. They have been stripped of all the tools that helped them stay on their target. These lost "tools" have just been baked in with other abilities so the Melee classes just have to spam a couple buttons now. Melee has also lost the ability for the most part to deal with other melee classes beating their teammates to a pulp.

In similar fashion, Ranged are frusterated because they have lost tools used to kite Melee classes or CC them off teammates. Mages having double blink is stupid I agree but they lose stun break and 1 Ice block. So it is a very mongloid way to play which is what this game has turned into.

There are no longer any precision movements or ability usage required to be good.

I think that people should avoid "hating" melee. But at the same time I think Melee players need to step back and ask: What is satisfying about this gameply? As a long time Warrior, Rogue, Ret, DK player I find melee classes completely disgusting to play now because there is nothing special about just doing PVE damage.

Underrated post, but of all the salt and inaccuracy in this thread, this is actually the closest thing to the truth.

This is the state of the game we're in. Because of the prune, both melees and ranged feel like their classes have been dumbed down, but when you dumb them both equally it will favor the melees. Why? Simply because the advantage of the ranged players is their ability to stay ahead of the melees by using their utility. When you prune all crowd control and utility from both types, the melees will be able to deal damage to wizards unchecked, even if both classes' kits were removed in equal measure.

The argument which class takes more skill hence is irrelevant because of all the expansions, this one entirely removed the critical thinking process of actually playing in PVP. This thread is just an e-peen contest.

[Vastoorode]

The problem is not that Melee are overpowered or that Range are underpowered.

Melee does not have to do much now to stay on their target. They have been stripped of all the tools that helped them stay on their target. These lost "tools" have just been baked in with other abilities so the Melee classes just have to spam a couple buttons now. Melee has also lost the ability for the most part to deal with other melee classes beating their teammates to a pulp.

In similar fashion, Ranged are frusterated because they have lost tools used to kite Melee classes or CC them off teammates. Mages having double blink is stupid I agree but they lose stun break and 1 Ice block. So it is a very mongloid way to play which is what this game has turned into.

There are no longer any precision movements or ability usage required to be good.

I think that people should avoid "hating" melee. But at the same time I think Melee players need to step back and ask: What is satisfying about this gameply? As a long time Warrior, Rogue, Ret, DK player I find melee classes completely disgusting to play now because there is nothing special about just doing PVE damage.

I totaly agree with you, melee have been so dumbed down nowdays and the only thing we have is damage, and their is no downside to use defensive cds, a ret no longer do less damage in bubbel, you can melee attack in BoP, there is no downside to AMS that I know of, same with warriors DbtS, back in Wrath and cata warriors hade to go 1h and shield and lose damage when pressed defensive.
Another problem imo is that damage cds for melee are way to high damage compared to non cds, once more I take warriors as an example, in Wrath the only offensive cd we had if I remeber correct was Rec and that "only" made us crit, not modifie our damage. Nowdays we have focus rage to up the damage, togheter with battle cry and Avatar it does so much more damage than without.

I would rather have a Wrath style for warriors there we had low up time but did alot of damage when hitting. Our mobility is acually not better now than in Wrath.

Something other that have to go away from melee is the ranged interupts, 3s spellreflects and things like that wich takes away the skillcap and don't give the ranged casters any breathing room even when they create a gap to cast.

[Crruor]

I totaly agree with you, melee have been so dumbed down nowdays and the only thing we have is damage, and their is no downside to use defensive cds, a ret no longer do less damage in bubbel, you can melee attack in BoP, there is no downside to AMS that I know of, same with warriors DbtS, back in Wrath and cata warriors hade to go 1h and shield and lose damage when pressed defensive.
Another problem imo is that damage cds for melee are way to high damage compared to non cds, once more I take warriors as an example, in Wrath the only offensive cd we had if I remeber correct was Rec and that "only" made us crit, not modifie our damage. Nowdays we have focus rage to up the damage, togheter with battle cry and Avatar it does so much more damage than without.

I would rather have a Wrath style for warriors there we had low up time but did alot of damage when hitting. Our mobility is acually not better now than in Wrath.

Something other that have to go away from melee is the ranged interupts, 3s spellreflects and things like that wich takes away the skillcap and don't give the ranged casters any breathing room even when they create a gap to cast.

The game is just different to wrath. Everything did absurd damage, cc was the strongest it has ever been (10 second fear and sap, clone not being on dr with anything bar itself, opening stuns (i.e cheapshot) not being on DR with normal stuns (so cheap into kindey was a 10 second stun chain) and so on). A BiS wrath warrior would do 400k autohits in todays damage, and they had more gap closers, 2 kicks (+overpower), reflect, way more defensive cds, 50% ms and so on and on and on. If a warrior bladestormed on you without def CDs you were dead. And still back then in serious pvp a arms warrior was horrible and in a really bad spot, as were all non rogue melees. It was caster cleave after caster cleave after caster cleave.

You cant just compare the 2 (but i agree, woltk classes could do so much more, they were so much more interesting and hard to play right).

[FarmI3oy]

I've been saying it for a while now that the pruning of abilities is just making the classes less and less interesting.

Utility spells in particular have just vanished from existence. For example, a key priest ability Mind Sear was removed from healing priests spell book. This was key in arena for stopping stealthies, and now they are removing it from Shadow priests too. Blizzard does not understand the importance of these spells.

Moreover, they do not understand the depth of play that utility spells add. They look at Mind Sear as strictly a damage ability. It is not.

[Saberstrike]

"I can't tank 2 melees for more than 15 seconds as a warlock"

... I can't tank 2 warlocks for more than 15 seconds as a melee. I had a particularly annoying battle for kotomogu recently where 2 horde warlocks were just sitting at the edge of the arena spamming chaosbolt on one target. They had the most damage done, the most killing blows, and nobody could get to them because a random BG wont have 6 people cooperating to pin them down, force teleport and then kill them.

So... Yeah. Imagine if they also had something to heal themselves, to cc you, and to ignore interrupts for a time. Oh wait, you have all that? Huh. It's almost like caster classes are not supposed to exchange favourably when someone punches them in the face.

I understand how frustrating it is to fight a WW monk. I'm a DK. They kite us until the end of time and slowly murder us as well. Again, it's not a melee vs ranged problem. It's a problem with certain classes that have too much. I've lost quite a few arena games to demo locks, even some to destruction locks. But I honestly think it's a problem with the format, more-so than the classes. Ranged do amazing in BGs and RBGs, and we all remember hunters in ashran. Arenas by their nature favor certain playstyles that often clash with the fantasy behind a spellcaster ("I take my time with my magic but it hurts").

Anyway the point of this thread is, again, not to point at any ranged classes to tell them they're all baddies. The point is that bundling all melee up and hating them equally is counter-productive to the point you're trying to make, and it just makes you sound like you want to be 'a ranged windwalker with all the escapes so no one can touch me while I do unhealable dps on the move'. WW is not ok. Melee agree with that as well.

[Bullettime]

"I can't tank 2 melees for more than 15 seconds as a warlock"

... I can't tank 2 warlocks for more than 15 seconds as a melee. I had a particularly annoying battle for kotomogu recently where 2 horde warlocks were just sitting at the edge of the arena spamming chaosbolt on one target. They had the most damage done, the most killing blows, and nobody could get to them because a random BG wont have 6 people cooperating to pin them down, force teleport and then kill them.

So... Yeah. Imagine if they also had something to heal themselves, to cc you, and to ignore interrupts for a time. Oh wait, you have all that? Huh. It's almost like caster classes are not supposed to exchange favourably when someone punches them in the face.

I understand how frustrating it is to fight a WW monk. I'm a DK. They kite us until the end of time and slowly murder us as well. Again, it's not a melee vs ranged problem. It's a problem with certain classes that have too much. I've lost quite a few arena games to demo locks, even some to destruction locks. But I honestly think it's a problem with the format, more-so than the classes. Ranged do amazing in BGs and RBGs, and we all remember hunters in ashran. Arenas by their nature favor certain playstyles that often clash with the fantasy behind a spellcaster ("I take my time with my magic but it hurts").

Anyway the point of this thread is, again, not to point at any ranged classes to tell them they're all baddies. The point is that bundling all melee up and hating them equally is counter-productive to the point you're trying to make, and it just makes you sound like you want to be 'a ranged windwalker with all the escapes so no one can touch me while I do unhealable dps on the move'. WW is not ok. Melee agree with that as well.

One of the concerns isn't just a matter of strength though. It's also a matter of how much easier it is to play certain melee right now than it is to play ranged. Outside of things like a Mage with the double blink, playing a ranged is straight up frustrating even if you do win more often.

Playing a ranged requires set up, kiting, proper CC, trying to coordinate peels, etc to do your job. Melee lost some of their peeling tools or ways to disarm other melee while keeping assloads of control and damage. While ranged have to try to pick their shots more, and skilled ranged are still on top of things, most melee can achieve strong results by just straight tunneling and abusing raw overpowering strength.

One of the most frustrating feelings in any PvP game is when you know you played the match better but you just got straight overpowered or when you only made one mistake and got killed by someone who made plenty. One mistake on most ranged classes and you get ripped to shreds by practically mongoloid gameplay coming out of shit like Warriors and Monks.

Basically, ranged overall have higher skill ceilings while melee have it just a hair lower while having a significantly lower floor. Tuning and design have allowed melee to pretty much just be picked up and allow you to go on a warpath.

[Vastoorode]

The game is just different to wrath. Everything did absurd damage, cc was the strongest it has ever been (10 second fear and sap, clone not being on dr with anything bar itself, opening stuns (i.e cheapshot) not being on DR with normal stuns (so cheap into kindey was a 10 second stun chain) and so on). A BiS wrath warrior would do 400k autohits in todays damage, and they had more gap closers, 2 kicks (+overpower), reflect, way more defensive cds, 50% ms and so on and on and on. If a warrior bladestormed on you without def CDs you were dead. And still back then in serious pvp a arms warrior was horrible and in a really bad spot, as were all non rogue melees. It was caster cleave after caster cleave after caster cleave.

You cant just compare the 2 (but i agree, woltk classes could do so much more, they were so much more interesting and hard to play right).

Yea I know that I can't compare them but I do Think that the game was bettter back than, sure damage was high but teams had more ways to peel at imo melee didn't have as high uptime as now, and most of all the succesfull players didn't just do damage but alot of other things, good warriors helped their team to Control the game and didn't only do damage.

[Sunlighthell]

Ladder is plagued by monks of all types so what would we do? Right we will nerf affliction in again and buff rogues and slightly nerf ww while leaving other melees damage unchanged. And mw mons? Nah, they're not op at all. Endless aura mastery with jumps to 100 yards while healing on move is not op. Corruption that ticks less than one handed autoattack is op.
Personally I think affliction is fine but only in rbgs. In 2v2 its just a joke and in 3v3 you're punching bag. However with 7.1.5 something may change so nerf may be justified but not touching melees and their mw friends is absurd at this moment.

[SirreASDF]

"I can't tank 2 melees for more than 15 seconds as a warlock"

... I can't tank 2 warlocks for more than 15 seconds as a melee. I had a particularly annoying battle for kotomogu recently where 2 horde warlocks were just sitting at the edge of the arena spamming chaosbolt on one target. They had the most damage done, the most killing blows, and nobody could get to them because a random BG wont have 6 people cooperating to pin them down, force teleport and then kill them.

So... Yeah. Imagine if they also had something to heal themselves, to cc you, and to ignore interrupts for a time. Oh wait, you have all that? Huh. It's almost like caster classes are not supposed to exchange favourably when someone punches them in the face.

Yeah, but no one cares about battlegrounds? Compare how often you would meet 2 destruction warlocks (that somehow both are left unchecked by the enemy) and compare that to facing a double melee cleave of lets say, wwmonk/fdk?

90% of games are vs a double melee cleave, that just sit on you nonstop until you die. There's no thought involved, no tactic.. If it's a "good melee cleave" it usually means that their healer assists with cc on the enemy healer or a focus pummel or whatever if the enemy healer happens to be close.. It's like, the very basics of arena, and now, somehow, that is considered to be a "good cleave".

Now, I agree that the melee hate is a bit over the top for sure, and the issue is most of the time a few classes, rather than "all melee". However, people generalize, this is nothing new.. Just look at the history of the world, or any facebook discussion or whatever..

Looking at the current arena situation though, something needs to be changed. Most ranged classes are REQUIRED to spec as many instant casts as possible, because you know what? They can't really cast for a majority of the game. If I wanted to run around like a headless chicken spamming instants, I would roll a FDK

Edit: this is comming from a long time 'melee as main'-player, who has only played ranged as alts.

[Livevil]

To put it really short, most melee have kept their stuns/slows/gap closers/interrupts while casters/huntard, with the exception of blizzards favorite and most pampered mage class, have been gradually losing most of their cc/slows/gap creators/defenses.

This leads to a one dimensional pve dmg spam race which melee win due to having way easier time doing dmg.

[Vynny]

The problem I have is that ranged classes have a much higher skill cap in PvP. What melee have to do is simple and intuitive. See a caster, stay close to them, interrupt their big casts, you win. Ranged classes not only require you to know how each melee class can fuck you, but they also need to execute that. Ranged have to bate out interrupts or else they're fucked. Melee don't. Ranged have to kite. Melee don't. Range have to deal with their attacks being delayed due to melee hits. Melee don't. The point is that ranged classes can be powerful if played right or dealt with poorly, but it's really easy to deal with them properly

[Omaski]

Im a ret pally, and ive been one for almost 8yrs...i truly understand why ranged are at a disadvantage more often than not in PvP right now, but personally i say "what goes around comes around" because WoW has been World of wizardcraft for the last 2 expansions, perhaps even longer (i only started SERIOUSLY PvP'ing in MoP), melee have been given the short end of the stick up until now. Yes, some posts here are correct, the pruning of tons of CC and gap openers for ranged and addition/enhancement of gap closers for melee tilted the scales in favor of melee. But the trump card that all range are not considering is the simple and powerful fact that you are a ranged class. you can deal damage from up to 40yrds away, melee cant do anything to you till theyre in your face. now there may be nothing you can do in a 1v1 situation against a melee if you are a certain class, there no way around that but in a BG or arena you have to actually plan ahead and think before just starting your cast rotation. yes if you let a frost DK sit on you and you do nothing about it he will punch in your shit same for a caster...if you let a destro lock sit in the back and cast chaos bolts all willy nilly... your shit will be punched in.

now that i think about it....its not the gap closers or even the mongoloid damage that melee has that scares the piss outta casters...its the multitude of instant stuns & fears on low CDs that melee have that makes a caster a sitting duck much more often than they are comfortable. Imho, i think blizz added all the stuns and fears to melee classes to counter the spammable CC that most casters have and while i say "what goes around comes around" with that, thats on Blizzard not us melee