Widdow in Competitive

[ati87]

If you play widow well. u can win game alone. if you cant? game is lost just because of you. 5x6

And there are very very few good widows.

Just no.

I can go any tank and I will never feel any danger coming from Widow ever, she is incapable of holding or pushing for points.

I don't care how good you people think they are, focusing on objective wins games and the moment you forget that you will spend allot of time at your base waiting for the rezz timer.

[Deleted]

Just no.

I can go any tank and I will never feel any danger coming from Widow ever, she is incapable of holding or pushing for points.

Well if widow kills both of your heals and even dps before her team even initiate then it can be said she won the game.

[Jessicka]

Well if widow kills both of your heals and even dps before her team even initiate then it can be said she won the game.

I've killed 5 players in the team, then stood hopeless as Reinhardt looked at me through his shield. My team just stood there on the choke looking back at him. Your team still need to initiate something and capitalise on what you do. Same when I Hexa-EMP their team, if my team don't push I just get killed and it's wasted.

You can make life a whole lot easier for your team with both Widow and Sombra, but if they're playing too guarded and defensive it won't work. And a huge chunk of the population play very defensively. It's not a surprise that I have much more success in matches tanking where I can set the pace and basically force my team to be more aggressive.

[ati87]

Well if widow kills both of your heals and even dps before her team even initiate then it can be said she won the game.

Good thing that this fantasy scenario never happens in ranked because people aren't really standing still out in the open now do they.

Unless you magically can shoot threw walls if the other team pushing you aren't killing shit. The few way's to push for a objective is to flank (just made you useless), stand behinds rein shield (just made you useless) and go in with Zen or Lucio's ulti (just made you useless).

If you become totally useless by just normal play then you shouldn't even consider picking that character.

[Yvaelle]

I think if they really want to see Widow appear in competitive, they have to give her one of the three buffs I proposed on the other page.

Most of the ideas wouldn't really increase her power in quick play too much because they wouldn't be used correctly (buffing carbine accuracy doesn't help the majority of people who are just spraying anyways - soldiers inaccuracy often works in their favor).
Buffing her spider mine to counter flankers could also be used offensively to stun players pushing through chokes - but that would also leave her defenseless to flankers/assassins which in quick play is everyone because without voice people rarely call out when an enemy Genji just made it through your front line (if they even know).
Buffing her ultimate to be more like High Noon (instantly full-charged shots for 6 seconds) - would certainly feel more noticeable in QP - and I'm sure it would result in more Widowmaker Play of the Games - but given all the like 20% accuracy Widowmakers out there, even during her ult she wouldn't actually be that dangerous (unless it's a good one, in which case you just run for cover because she can only fire so often/so fast).

So any of them would be a sufficient buff to Widow in competitive, but probably wouldn't buff her as much in QP.


Edit: Another thought - part of the issue with Widow/Hanzo in QP not contributing to victory (even when they are accurate and laying down objective kills), is that QP is a very visual experience more than anything. With nobody making calls to coordinate ults or pushes or fallbacks - everyone responds to what they visually see.

That means your team only knows it is safe to push onto the point when they see a member of your team standing on it and not surrounded. Widow/Hanzo can make it safe to do so, but she doesn't demonstrate that safety visually the way a Tracer/Rein/Reaper do - when they run onto the point, get a kill or two, and then stand up there capping / teabagging / emoting. If you see a Tracer dash up to the enemy point, shred the enemy defenders, and then start capping - you can see it's safe to come out of your hiding spot, and go help her instantly. If you see Widow double kill, that objective still visually looks like a trap until someone actually goes over to it.

The flip side is also true for the enemy team. If they see your Reinhardt standing on their point all alone, they will all rush toward him to take it back: even if your Widow is ready to shoot at anyone who steps onto the point - visually they see a lone enemy and are encouraged to be aggressive when they have the superior numbers. If they see your Reinhardt standing on the point, and a Soldier instead of your Widow standing next to him - they are going to be much more hesitant about wanting to jump on that point.

In both cases, Reinhardt has backup, but in the Widow case she isn't visually a threat - so the enemy will be aggressive. With any other DPS (except Hanzo, who also suffers from the Widow problem) - visually being on the point discourages enemy aggression. It also helps cap the points faster, which Widow/Hanzo don't often do unless it's very safe and they can help flood the returning enemy choke.

[DeadmanWalking]

The most annoying widow is the one who is trying to get the 3 jumping snipes in a game achievement widow, the one who could give two shits about winning, comp or objectives so long as they can slip in 3 snipes while rappelling to the highest building to go sailing through the air.

[Jessicka]

The most annoying widow is the one who is trying to get the 3 jumping snipes in a game achievement widow, the one who could give two shits about winning, comp or objectives so long as they can slip in 3 snipes while rappelling to the highest building to go sailing through the air.

Pretty sure the achievement is just for one headshot flying snipe. I've come across a couple who've been doing it to compile them for their youtube channels or streams or whatever though, and it is annoying.

[xerus]

Unless you are playing in an organized group Widowmaker has no real place in Competitive and in solo queue will most often be a hinderance to the group no matter how good the player is.

Hanzo is nearly as bad but at least his Ult isn't almost entirely useless.

Tracer and Genji are cringe worthy in most matches too for that matter.

There are some picks that are just simply bad for solo queue (or small group) unless the player is actually as good as they think they are, and those players are few and far between.

[AeneasBK]

I've killed 5 players in the team, then stood hopeless as Reinhardt looked at me through his shield. My team just stood there on the choke looking back at him. Your team still need to initiate something and capitalise on what you do. Same when I Hexa-EMP their team, if my team don't push I just get killed and it's wasted.

You can make life a whole lot easier for your team with both Widow and Sombra, but if they're playing too guarded and defensive it won't work. And a huge chunk of the population play very defensively. It's not a surprise that I have much more success in matches tanking where I can set the pace and basically force my team to be more aggressive.

Again, not disagreeing with anything written here but can we stop pretending that if WM kills 3 of thier squishies but your team doesn't take the point that isn't entirely on the rest of the team. Blaming WM for her pick; when she's blowing up the enemy team; because her teammates are shit seems a bit daft I'd posit that if you are in that situation and your team couldn't capitalise on it in the slightest, then its a completely lost cause anyway/you could solo carry on any toon.

Likewise with attack Torbjornms or Bastions (or any hero in a situation it mayb not be ideal for). You kill 4 people before you die, and don't win that engagement; it is not your fault.

Yes wins and losses are about objectives. If anyone wants to provide some hard data on the correlation between "who kills the enemy team more" and "who wins" I'd be interested to see how strong it is. Obviously it isn't true in every case. You can "steal" a win But I'd be downright amazed if it was negative

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I've come across a couple who've been doing it to compile them for their youtube channels or streams or whatever though, and it is annoying.

Sad part is no one is going to think it's anything other than fluke when they pull it off. It was on one of the WTF moments videos on Nepal, WM flies up into the air above the control point and headshots someone through the "railings" part of the stonework - undoubtedly an awesome shot. But you'd have to repeat it 3 times on the trot before I would accept there wasn't almost terrabytes of fraps data of them fucking it up over and over.

[Jessicka]

Again, not disagreeing with anything written here but can we stop pretending that if WM kills 3 of thier squishies but your team doesn't take the point that isn't entirely on the rest of the team. Blaming WM for her pick; when she's blowing up the enemy team; because her teammates are shit seems a bit daft I'd posit that if you are in that situation and your team couldn't capitalise on it in the slightest, then its a completely lost cause anyway/you could solo carry on any toon.

Well exactly, this is why I've moved well on from blaming the Snipers; by now most of the time you see them they have well upwards of 50-60 hours on them and they're rarely completely awful. I'm much more likely to blame the Genjis, Tracers and Reapers who equally never go near the objective, and never involve themselves in team fights.

Likewise with attack Torbjornms or Bastions (or any hero in a situation it mayb not be ideal for). You kill 4 people before you die, and don't win that engagement; it is not your fault.

Yes wins and losses are about objectives. If anyone wants to provide some hard data on the correlation between "who kills the enemy team more" and "who wins" I'd be interested to see how strong it is. Obviously it isn't true in every case. You can "steal" a win But I'd be downright amazed if it was negative

I think Tanks are the ones who win or lose fights. They're the ones who need to exploit the openings, take and hold the ground, and just be at the centre of everything. You get a Right Click Hero Reinhardt who either stands on the choke on attack, or backpeddles all the back to the checkpoints on defence; you're never going to win. Equally, you get the grudging Roadhog who just flanks, they're useless. But when they know when to push or pressure the other team when they see an opening, they'll set the direction of the fight entirely.

[AeneasBK]

I think Tanks are the ones who win or lose fights.

I guess its all contextual but it's shared between the tanks and the supports; depending on how many of each are around; support have greater "dimishing returns" as you have mroe in the group; but in a team with 1 support and 2 tanks, it will be the timely res/breakitDOWN/Iris that will swing it, either to take the objective or clear out enough of the enemy to get the ball rolling. In my recent experiences at least. Variance and all.

Safe to say (and this might just make me look a fool) but if pushed I'd rather have 5 DPS + support, than 5 DPS + tank, even though some DPS/Defense heros have support-like abilities. This is turning into a ramble, my brain is a bit fried from work, sorry if its not making sense

[ati87]

Again, not disagreeing with anything written here but can we stop pretending that if WM kills 3 of thier squishies but your team doesn't take the point that isn't entirely on the rest of the team. Blaming WM for her pick; when she's blowing up the enemy team; because her teammates are shit seems a bit daft I'd posit that if you are in that situation and your team couldn't capitalise on it in the slightest, then its a completely lost cause anyway/you could solo carry on any toon.

Likewise with attack Torbjornms or Bastions (or any hero in a situation it mayb not be ideal for). You kill 4 people before you die, and don't win that engagement; it is not your fault.

Yes wins and losses are about objectives. If anyone wants to provide some hard data on the correlation between "who kills the enemy team more" and "who wins" I'd be interested to see how strong it is. Obviously it isn't true in every case. You can "steal" a win But I'd be downright amazed if it was negative

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Sad part is no one is going to think it's anything other than fluke when they pull it off. It was on one of the WTF moments videos on Nepal, WM flies up into the air above the control point and headshots someone through the "railings" part of the stonework - undoubtedly an awesome shot. But you'd have to repeat it 3 times on the trot before I would accept there wasn't almost terrabytes of fraps data of them fucking it up over and over.

But you aren't killing those 3 when it matters if you kill them at all.

It's objective based and if you aren't holding your objective or pushing for the objective you are totally useless. Great you managed to kill a few of them while they are building they ulti's at the choke point but what did you do when the entire team arrives at the objective a minute later and you need to push them back.

[AeneasBK]

But you aren't killing those 3 when it matters if you kill them at all.

It's objective based and if you aren't holding your objective or pushing for the objective you are totally useless. Great you managed to kill a few of them while they are building they ulti's at the choke point but what did you do when the entire team arrives at the objective a minute later and you need to push them back.

I'm usually refreshing my coffee during the win screens or rolling another cigarette... I don't see the connect between you killing their team and buying your team a whole minute for objectives so when 'the entire team arrives at the objective a minute later', it's already captured and the payload is 3/4 of the way towards the first checkpoint...

Also, when people are dead they usually aren't charging thier ults. You could argue that if WM kills their entire team she is denying ult charge to her own team. I guess.

[Shadow Fox]

Meta right now is tanks and burst healing. Widow simply can't take down the tanks fast enough. If you want to snipe, play Ana. Or pick Roadhog and snipe with your hook. Or try to get headshots with S76.

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Lucky. Seems like WMs on my team don't swap even when being countered by Winstons and DVas simultaneously.

What I've heard and seen aswell, is the 3-tank setup frequently.
Reinhardt, Roadhog, D.Va, Soldier, Pharah, Ana, Zenyatta.

While I don't play in premade groups too often, I have seen that build pop up a lot and start to roll people over.

Widow and Zarya counters start to shine at a few positions against the setup, though.
Or the rarely good Genji that manages to sneak behind with his ult and destroy them from the back.

[Shadow Fox]

You can play competitive successfully as Widow if you land the important shots.

The problem with competitive is that you will always have people on your team that know what the current 'meta' is all about. So if anyone tries to play outside of that people get really sour. However, there is a current 'meta' for a reason, and it is much more reliable to just play inside it as thats likely what the other team is doing also. You could have the game of your life as Widow and win the match, but you could have just played a stronger hero and it would have been just as successfull with much less chance of fail.

What the vast majority of the Ranked community also doesn't understand is that with Season 3, Win/Lose doesn't impact your Skill Rating. And in a lot of cases, the Meta doesn't determine who is performing better, either.

[ati87]

I'm usually refreshing my coffee during the win screens or rolling another cigarette... I don't see the connect between you killing their team and buying your team a whole minute for objectives so when 'the entire team arrives at the objective a minute later', it's already captured and the payload is 3/4 of the way towards the first checkpoint...

Also, when people are dead they usually aren't charging thier ults. You could argue that if WM kills their entire team she is denying ult charge to her own team. I guess.

Yea unrealistic scenario's that don't happen ''killing the entire team as Widow Lol'' who do you even kill when you'r shooting at Rein?

The times during ranked matches where I died by the hands of WM are the times where I would have died by any other character because somebody else brought me close to death.

[AeneasBK]

Yea unrealistic scenario's that don't happen ''killing the entire team as Widow Lol'' who do you even kill when you'r shooting at Rein?

I didn't say killing the entire team I said killing 3 squishies. And at gold/plat levels I've seen it happen; I'm not going to pretend it's *common* but then; there aren't many plays at that level that are; its all a bit chaotic

I was simply saying that in the scenario where the WM has killed 3 squishies; it's not the WMs fault if the other 5 members of her team were unable to capitalise on it; as people seem to suggest.

At your level it may never happen; fair enough

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What the vast majority of the Ranked community also doesn't understand is that with Season 3, Win/Lose doesn't impact your Skill Rating.

Huh ?

[Jessicka]

I guess its all contextual but it's shared between the tanks and the supports; depending on how many of each are around; support have greater "dimishing returns" as you have mroe in the group; but in a team with 1 support and 2 tanks, it will be the timely res/breakitDOWN/Iris that will swing it, either to take the objective or clear out enough of the enemy to get the ball rolling. In my recent experiences at least. Variance and all.

Safe to say (and this might just make me look a fool) but if pushed I'd rather have 5 DPS + support, than 5 DPS + tank, even though some DPS/Defense heros have support-like abilities. This is turning into a ramble, my brain is a bit fried from work, sorry if its not making sense

Of course context will change, but 'on average' the tank will be the one making the difference; it doesn't matter how good the support is if the Tank who's supposed to be leading the charge isn't. I tend to find if you have 5 DPS, you might as well go a sixth; no one is going to use any protection the Tank brings, and they're not going to stick around a healer for heals. It's kind of a chaotic mess of flankers who rely mostly on health packs, and seldom wins anyway.

But this is a huge digression.

[xerus]

What the vast majority of the Ranked community also doesn't understand is that with Season 3, Win/Lose doesn't impact your Skill Rating. And in a lot of cases, the Meta doesn't determine who is performing better, either.

What?

Win/Loss doesn't change your maximum attained ranking, but it absolutely changes your current season rank and your current season rank is what the game uses to match you with other people.

As far as the "meta" is concerned most people who play don't even understand what the term means and can barely play in a coordinated group that would make things actually work.

In most cases, unless you are playing at Master / GM levels you are better off playing the guys you are actually good at and not blindly following that pro teams are doing at skill levels you will never obtain. Granted team make up does matter, but being good at a character is more important that blindly following what some pro teams did at the last tournament.

[Rotted]

99,9% Widow's are utterly garbage, and trust me, people don't have time to check if you're a good one.

Pretty much this, nearly every comp and qp game I see a WM they suck donkey dick, I've seen a few good ones who get a odd double or triple there and they pull their weight, which is fair enough.

3 nights ago I played with one, she had a 7 kill streak, 5 down, mercy ress, mercy down and one of the newly ressed, she was shit hot and constantly on the kill feed