[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Evilmoo]

So, i got Chain of Thrayn as my second legendary (first being prydaz).. any other use of this rather then macroing BoF on self? :/

[OrcinusDrake]

It's the wait until 7.1.5 legendary. Currently stat stick with negligible proc. After 7.1.5 nigh BiS

[Evilmoo]

It's the wait until 7.1.5 legendary. Currently stat stick with negligible proc. After 7.1.5 nigh BiS

uh? i see no changes on Thrayn in 7.1.5? still 15% heal on non greater blessing.
Anything i'm missing ?

[OrcinusDrake]

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=137086/chain-of-thrayn

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Those of us with more than two legendaries will have some tough choices to make in 7.1.5! Not just BIS, but best combinations for various instances, various fights. I expect we'll have many discussions around which combos to use when over the next few months.

[Evilmoo]

http://www.wowdb.com/items/139324-go...htmarish-ichor
http://www.wowdb.com/items/138225-ph...?bonusIDs=1805
http://www.wowdb.com/items/137400-co...?bonusIDs=1727 (Mythic 2, 845 ivll)
http://www.wowdb.com/items/137344-ta...?bonusIDs=1727 (Myth 6, 865)


tough choices, i dont have current BiS ones. which combo?

[Marrilaife]

just the usual lack of thought process

Or just wishful thinking "I want it so I want to believe it will be rather sooner than later", some extreme farmers also done or nearly done with the current artifact so they eagerly await new stuff.

Blizzard has something to do with it as well since I can't figure out now is Nighthold the first or the second raid tier of this xpac, as it will remove curve / cutting edge Xavius so it's like a separate tier? I do hope it is first because that would mean we'll get another raid after Tomb of Sargeras (3rd tier) and not just "here is Argus with some dailies, the end".

But tbh for us double trait relics are not as big, however for some dps specs where specific traits are worth 20 ilvls above others it's gonna be a nightmare to find a relic with the exact 2 traits you want (they might not even exist). I think I saw a chart for Ret, Havoc DH and Frost DK and they all have traits worth way above other ones. Balancing nightmare I tell you.

Yeah I would want the 10% extra armor at low hp and another buff to LOTP in 1 relic but I have that feeling they'll put some mediocre traits on double trait relic and we'll have to deal with it. Where would they even come from, just from the new raid or will they be added to mythic+? Because at the moment there are very few raid relics with good traits (I found it hilarious how all 3 types of relic in EN for us had a version with +3% crit to judgement).

[Gemini Soul]

Or just wishful thinking "I want it so I want to believe it will be rather sooner than later", some extreme farmers also done or nearly done with the current artifact so they eagerly await new stuff.

Blizzard has something to do with it as well since I can't figure out now is Nighthold the first or the second raid tier of this xpac, as it will remove curve / cutting edge Xavius so it's like a separate tier? I do hope it is first because that would mean we'll get another raid after Tomb of Sargeras (3rd tier) and not just "here is Argus with some dailies, the end".

But tbh for us double trait relics are not as big, however for some dps specs where specific traits are worth 20 ilvls above others it's gonna be a nightmare to find a relic with the exact 2 traits you want (they might not even exist). I think I saw a chart for Ret, Havoc DH and Frost DK and they all have traits worth way above other ones. Balancing nightmare I tell you.

Yeah I would want the 10% extra armor at low hp and another buff to LOTP in 1 relic but I have that feeling they'll put some mediocre traits on double trait relic and we'll have to deal with it. Where would they even come from, just from the new raid or will they be added to mythic+? Because at the moment there are very few raid relics with good traits (I found it hilarious how all 3 types of relic in EN for us had a version with +3% crit to judgement).

NH is first Teir, its where we get our FIRST TEIR set this xpac...

Raid Teir's are separated by Teir sets, this xpac we will have 3.

[Marrilaife]

tough choices, i dont have current BiS ones. which combo?

Depends for which content. Goblet / echo has the advantage of being completely passive therefore you don't have to worry about optimal usage. Echo is also a decent haste stat stick. In case you have some good dps trinkets you can consider them too (angerboda, horn of valor, arcanocrystal from jim etc.)

I'm recently coming to the conclusion goblet uptime is not really as great as people used to claim. Similar issue as with chrono shard case, the expected uptime and real uptime are 2 different things.

I checked my logs at some point from bosses where I use "yolo trinkets" and goblet is one of them (on bosses that hit hard I currently settled at darkmoon card and 1 of the timewalking trinkets, even after the nerf), so I had goblet on elerethe, dragons, nythendra etc. and the uptime was bad, especially on bosses where I have to run around like elerethe / dragons (I presume that caused some blobs to be wasted?), if that's the case dungeons would also suffer from this problem (moving too far from blob, wasting it).

As far as absorb trinkets go, I think arcway one is better than the nelth one because the cap is bigger, absorbs all damage and not 50% and has more leeway as when to use it (more tied to stacks than static cd). Downside is mastery is worse than versa and you kinda need a way to track stacks to make an informed decision when to get most of it (like WA / TMW). If you use it with low stacks it will barely do anything. But it's a good tool to soak a big hit.

- - - Updated - - -

NH is first Teir, its where we get our FIRST TEIR set this xpac...

Raid Teir's are separated by Teir sets, this xpac we will have 3.

Good good that means more raid content after tomb still.

[Rayvhen]

Hey guys, we just rebuilt our raid team and we've been having some problems with our tanks dying on ursoc Vanilla and Arthur are both pally tanks and I just don't know enough about the spec to give proper criticism. If anyone wants to give some pointers it would be greatly appreciated. www dot warcraftlogs dot com/reports/cYv9tgqGV3dNpAXM/#type=summary&source=10&fight=2

sorry cant post links currently.

[SpeedyKevin]

Hey guys, we just rebuilt our raid team and we've been having some problems with our tanks dying on ursoc Vanilla and Arthur are both pally tanks and I just don't know enough about the spec to give proper criticism. If anyone wants to give some pointers it would be greatly appreciated. www dot warcraftlogs dot com/reports/cYv9tgqGV3dNpAXM/#type=summary&source=10&fight=2

sorry cant post links currently.

Looking at the buff uptimes, it seems that both tanks aren't keeping Shield of the Righteous up very long. I think 32%? Also one of them is speced for holy shield, maybe try going for blessed hammer for that 15% auto attack mitigation. Other than that try keeping SoTR uptime higher. On that fight, I generally have been able to keep SOTR around 60-65% up.

Hope that helps!
Kevin

[Rayvhen]

Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to pass that info along. Is there trinket or list or gearing list you could point me to? I know they're both using at least one dps trinket but for all I know it may be good for prot.

[Marrilaife]

Hey guys, we just rebuilt our raid team and we've been having some problems with our tanks dying on ursoc Vanilla and Arthur are both pally tanks and I just don't know enough about the spec to give proper criticism. If anyone wants to give some pointers it would be greatly appreciated. www dot warcraftlogs dot com/reports/cYv9tgqGV3dNpAXM/#type=summary&source=10&fight=2

sorry cant post links currently.

They're taunting wrongly (tbh that's about 90% of the cases "why is tank dead on ursoc").

Example. Try no. 3 from your logs.

Rend flesh is cast at 1:55.303 at Vanillaskill therefore after rend is applied the other tank should keep the boss until rend expires on Vanilla.

Overwhelm is cast at 2:00.907 at Vanilla.

Arthursir casts Hand of Reckoning at Ursoc at 2:01.563. This is too late. Overwhelm was already applied and Vanilla will die. He needs to taunt after rend cast has ended and not wait for overwhelm to come.

Indeed at 2:07 Vanilla died. Since it's heroic and you have 2 Pallys if they fuck up and get both debuffs tell them to make a macro to bubble / bop themselves (do not take spellwarding talent for this fight it's worthless) and cancelaura right after, and clear the debuffs if that happens. However, this should generally not happen a lot. They need to practice juggling the debuffs properly.

As a consolation I can tell you this is the hardest job a tank needs to do in the whole EN raid. Most tank swaps give you bigger reaction window (also remember taunt has 8 sec cd and it needs to be up when you need it, since as you see the reaction window there was 5 sec).

Another example, this is more tricky and not obvious mistake but can lead to deaths and it did. Try no. 6. Checking Arthursir's death recap.
10 sec before death he got Rend Flesh applied. Rend Flesh lasts 12 seconds.
2.34 seconds before he died, he taunted Ursoc to him. This is theoretically correct, since the other tank got his second Overwhelm applied at 4.38 (so he taunted 2 seconds later). However, taking ticks from Rend and boss melee together is deadly if the tank isn't overgeared.

What should be done is either:
1. Wait until rend expires, then immediately taunt.
2. Use tanking cd on top of active mitigation.
3. Coordinate healer cd for that moment (when are they actually using theirs? are you communicating about it? pre-planning it or tank is supposed to call for them on voice comm?)
4. Use heavy direct healing on tank during that time. He absolutely can't survive on passive healing when taking half a million hits from the boss and 700k ticks from bleed. Checking healing done to him and seeing only beacon, renewing mist, leech, judgment of light etc. suggests no heavy healing on the tank during that time.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to pass that info along. Is there trinket or list or gearing list you could point me to? I know they're both using at least one dps trinket but for all I know it may be good for prot.

Impact tremor aka Suesh trinket - not good.
Spiked counterweight - not good either.
Karazhan trinket not sure tbh, I think it's fairly mediocre, but at least it's a tanking trinket.
Str/versa stat stick - acceptable for a starting trinket.

From dps trinkets you should be looking at high stat sticks (trial of valor drops, arcanocrystal / ettin fingernail from world bosses), angerboda trinket from maw, horn of valor from HOV, maybe chrono shard from arcway.

From tank trinkets, crafted darkmoon card, grotesque statuette from Xavius in EN, trinkets from timewalking TBC / Wotlk vendor (have to buy them when they're up) and only if you time those trinkets well since all their power is in the active really, in lack thereof you can also use Goblet of Nighmare Ichor from Ilgynoth, Phantasmal Echo from 4 dragons or Coagulated Nightwell Residue from Arcway. If you're lucky to get Nerubian Husk from Violet Hold that could be good as well.

Gearing advice for starters: except trinket, use whatever has highest ilvl, unless it has crit, then consider using an ilvl downgrade of 5-10 ilvls if that one doesn't have crit and has good amount of haste / versa. With jewellery you can downgrade up to 15-20 ilvls because they have no armor on them, however don't downgrade too much because of healthpool (you lose stamina).

Also the fact none of them enchanted cloak or neck and Vanilla has empty sockets... If haste gems are too expensive at least gem versatility, it's cheap as rice.

[Rayvhen]

I appreciate all the input, I'll make sure to direct them to these answers. Any other suggesting or feedback is always appreciated.

[SpeedyKevin]

They're taunting wrongly (tbh that's about 90% of the cases "why is tank dead on ursoc").

Example. Try no. 3 from your logs.

Rend flesh is cast at 1:55.303 at Vanillaskill therefore after rend is applied the other tank should keep the boss until rend expires on Vanilla.

Overwhelm is cast at 2:00.907 at Vanilla.

Arthursir casts Hand of Reckoning at Ursoc at 2:01.563. This is too late. Overwhelm was already applied and Vanilla will die. He needs to taunt after rend cast has ended and not wait for overwhelm to come.

Indeed at 2:07 Vanilla died. Since it's heroic and you have 2 Pallys if they fuck up and get both debuffs tell them to make a macro to bubble / bop themselves (do not take spellwarding talent for this fight it's worthless) and cancelaura right after, and clear the debuffs if that happens. However, this should generally not happen a lot. They need to practice juggling the debuffs properly.

As a consolation I can tell you this is the hardest job a tank needs to do in the whole EN raid. Most tank swaps give you bigger reaction window (also remember taunt has 8 sec cd and it needs to be up when you need it, since as you see the reaction window there was 5 sec).

Another example, this is more tricky and not obvious mistake but can lead to deaths and it did. Try no. 6. Checking Arthursir's death recap.
10 sec before death he got Rend Flesh applied. Rend Flesh lasts 12 seconds.
2.34 seconds before he died, he taunted Ursoc to him. This is theoretically correct, since the other tank got his second Overwhelm applied at 4.38 (so he taunted 2 seconds later). However, taking ticks form Rend and boss melee together is deadly if thee tank isn't overgeared.

What should be done is either:
1. Wait until rend expires, then immediately taunt.
2. Use tanking cd on top of active mitigation.
3. Coordinate healer cd for that moment (when are they actually using theirs? are you communicating about it? pre-planning it or tank is supposed to call for them on voice comm?)
4. Use heavy direct healing on tank during that time. He absolutely can't survive on passive healing when taking half a million hits from the boss and 700k ticks from bleed. Checking healing done to him and seeing only beacon, renewing mist, leech, judgment of light etc. suggests no heavy healing on the tank during that time.

- - - Updated - - -

Impact tremor aka Suesh trinket - not good.
Spiked counterweight - not good either.
Karazhan trinket not sure tbh, I think it's fairly mediocre, but at least it's a tanking trinket.
Str/versa stat stick - acceptable for a starting trinket.

From dps trinkets you should be looking at high stat sticks (trial of valor drops, arcanocrystal / ettin fingernail from world bosses), angerboda trinket from maw, horn of valor from HOV, maybe chrono shard from arcway.

From tank trinkets, crafted darkmoon card, grotesque statuette from Xavius in EN, trinkets from timewalking TBC / Wotlk vendor (have to buy them when they're up) and only if you time those trinkets well since all their power is in the active really, in lack thereof you can also use Goblet of Nighmare Ichor from Ilgynoth, Phantasmal Echo from 4 dragons or Coagulated Nightwell Residue from Arcway. If you're lucky to get Nerubian Husk from Violet Hold that could be good as well.

Gearing advice for starters: except trinket, use whatever has highest ilvl, unless it has crit, then consider using an ilvl downgrade of 5-10 ilvls if that one doesn't have crit and has good amount of haste / versa. With jewellery you can downgrade up to 15-20 ilvls because they have no armor on them, however don't downgrade too much because of healthpool (you lose stamina).

Also the fact none of them enchanted cloak or neck and Vanilla has empty sockets... If haste gems are too expensive at least gem versatility, it's cheap as rice.

^good stuff! Also if taunting is an issue, there is a nice Weak Aura that pretty much prevents you from screwing up!
I'll link it when I find it... haha

[Veyloris]

^good stuff! Also if taunting is an issue, there is a nice Weak Aura that pretty much prevents you from screwing up!
I'll link it when I find it... haha

@Marrilaife, http://pastebin.com/ZgFL72GY

that's the ursoc WA. There is clapping and text when you should taunt. It is very obvious and makes the fight require literally 0 thinking. Make sure the tanks have each other on focus for it to work.

[Ephrael]

Hi everyone,

My guild is considering making me switch to my guardian druid for nighthold based on the fact that druid is op as hell right now and paladin is very squishy and we don't really need the dps.

I've been looking into the latest ptr build and I don't see why I should not switch to druid since the nerf looks very minor (-4% on thick hide).

The thing is I'm looking for a valid argument to keep playing my paladin, did I miss something about the upcoming changes or the nighthold fights that could make using a paladin better ?

[Mollify]

^ There were plenty of Paladin (and Warrior) tanks in first kills for Mythic Helya; I doubt playing Guardian will change things for your guild. It sounds like misunderstanding on their part.

[OrcsRLame]

Hi everyone,

My guild is considering making me switch to my guardian druid for nighthold based on the fact that druid is op as hell right now and paladin is very squishy and we don't really need the dps.

I've been looking into the latest ptr build and I don't see why I should not switch to druid since the nerf looks very minor (-4% on thick hide).

The thing is I'm looking for a valid argument to keep playing my paladin, did I miss something about the upcoming changes or the nighthold fights that could make using a paladin better ?

Well, the best argument is that paladins are not squishy, at all. Paladins may appear squishy because relative to other tanks they are incredibly difficult to play correctly, but played optimally paladins are incredibly strong.

[Ephrael]

^ There were plenty of Paladin (and Warrior) tanks in first kills for Mythic Helya; I doubt playing Guardian will change things for your guild. It sounds like misunderstanding on their part.

4 paladins in the top 20 first kills, 8x double druid, and druid in every kill except 3. And warrior is good right know, I'll never argue with that.

And people say that paladin is not squishy when played correctly but it's partially incorrect. When I look at my logs I have nothing to be ashamed of, my dps percentile is always above 90 et more often than not above 95 and my dmg taken is comparable to any other prot paladin with similar gear.

However, when I do the same bosses with my druid I'm taking waaaaay less damage with minimal effort. I mean, on mythic odyn the spear deals a shit ton of dmg, with the druid i only need 3 stacks of ironfur and maybe a 20% dmg reduction if I feel I'm not far enough from the boss, with the paladin it's not the same.
On guarm, the flashing fangs reck me on my paladin and I have to use sotr + cd, on my druid ironfur is enough. And let's not talk about mythic helya where you just can't use seraphim and dps trinkets...
I could go on forever with example like these.

My guild appreciates my ability to deal top dps with my paladin without taking too much dmg compared to other paladins, but we don't really need the increased dps.

Which is why I'm looking for another undisputable reason not to switch. Druid is definitely more resilient than paladin and more often than not resilience is what you need, not dps. Or maybe I'm just missing something, I don't know.