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  1. #101
    You guys realize that Shadowflame school instead of just shadow is an intended nerf to pvp, right? The school rarely matters when it comes to #, unless it's chaos.
    @Banned

    MG is one of those talents that really needs to be tested on raid enviroments. Based on your tests, I don't think MG needs a nerf, but there's some people pretty convinced of it, even though their tests came from dummies.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evertonbelmontt View Post
    You guys realize that Shadowflame school instead of just shadow is an intended nerf to pvp, right? The school rarely matters when it comes to #, unless it's chaos.
    Interesting you say that when you have baseline Artifact passive increasing Fire damage by 4% and legendary that increases fire damage by 10% and another one which works off fire spells (although not in case of the changed sburn for now).

    Intended nerf to PvP? Says who? Ion, is that you?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Interesting you say that when you have baseline Artifact passive increasing Fire damage by 4% and legendary that increases fire damage by 10% and another one which works off fire spells (although not in case of the changed sburn for now).

    Intended nerf to PvP? Says who? Ion, is that you?
    The 4% aura came in the same build as this change, if their intent was to buff they could have tweaked that alone.

    There's a millions ways of buffing destruction that doesn't result in a clear nerf to pvp, because that one can't be tweaked with the pvp side of things, it's either there or it isn't.

  4. #104
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evertonbelmontt View Post
    The 4% aura came in the same build as this change, if their intent was to buff they could have tweaked that alone.

    There's a millions ways of buffing destruction that doesn't result in a clear nerf to pvp, because that one can't be tweaked with the pvp side of things, it's either there or it isn't.
    I am not talking about 4% aura, I am talking about Flames of The Pit Artifact trait we have live, which increases Fire Damage by 4% and which results in Shadowburn being buffed 4% on top of 4% across the board buff.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokeypenguin View Post
    The pants are terrable. They are itemized, I just replaced them with sephuz's secret *shudder*. I did not get lucky with legendaries.
    WoW, you dropped 2269 int and 700 mastery to get 708 crit and 657 haste. hell, i'll humor you and accept you socketed a 200int gem on sephuz, so you replaced 2069 int and 700 mastery for 708 crit and 857 haste (a +200 haste ench). I dont need to sim this to say "rofl". And i don't even factor stamina in there (survivability).

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    WoW, you dropped 2269 int and 700 mastery to get 708 crit and 657 haste. hell, i'll humor you and accept you socketed a 200int gem on sephuz, so you replaced 2069 int and 700 mastery for 708 crit and 857 haste (a +200 haste ench). I dont need to sim this to say "rofl". And i don't even factor stamina in there (survivability).
    You are right on the basics, although int is much less there, as it's not like he had nothing to replace these pants with.

    That said difference between your run off the mill 880 pants and 910 Demonic Gateway pants is around 450 int, that alone is more than 1% DPS increase even without extra secondary stats. People seem to be forgetting about that part each time they complain about pants, while in reality they forget that because it's a leg slot it comes with a whole load of stats by default.

    Of course 1% is just 1%, but well, it's not 0% people seem to think when they look at these pants.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I am not talking about 4% aura, I am talking about Flames of The Pit Artifact trait we have live, which increases Fire Damage by 4% and which results in Shadowburn being buffed 4% on top of 4% across the board buff.
    Unless they purposedly go over their way to make Destruction overpowred/overbuffed, which hasn't happened since MoP and it's safe to say won't happen, these numbers doesn't make up for the school change in pvp.

    Basically any other buff can be tweaked for PVP with the PVP tunning side of the game, whereas the school change will always be a nerf for PVP. They could have kept the shadow school and tweaked the artifact traits, or any other elegant solution.

  8. #108
    I'm not sure how the school change is a PvP nerf. It's a buff if anything, right? Unless something has changed recently, you don't get locked out of Shadowflame unless both Shadow AND Fire are locked. That means you'll be able to SB if you get fire locked whereas you wouldn't be able to Conflag.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    I'm not sure how the school change is a PvP nerf. It's a buff if anything, right? Unless something has changed recently, you don't get locked out of Shadowflame unless both Shadow AND Fire are locked. That means you'll be able to SB if you get fire locked whereas you wouldn't be able to Conflag.
    If it works like Elemental Blast (School damage is frost/fire/nature), then yeah, you'll get locked out of both. So technically a nerf in that regard.

  10. #110

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by effs View Post
    If it works like Elemental Blast (School damage is frost/fire/nature), then yeah, you'll get locked out of both. So technically a nerf in that regard.
    If you GET Shadowflame locked (like by casting Cataclysm), yes, but SB is instant so that's not going to happen. But if you get Fire locked OR Shadow locked, you can still use Shadowflame spells - it takes BOTH getting locked to lock you out.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    If you GET Shadowflame locked (like by casting Cataclysm), yes, but SB is instant so that's not going to happen. But if you get Fire locked OR Shadow locked, you can still use Shadowflame spells - it takes BOTH getting locked to lock you out.
    And what if you get locked while casting chaos bolt?:P

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by effs View Post
    And what if you get locked while casting chaos bolt?:P
    You can still use Rifts even when Chaos Bolt locked, actually, as a prime example of what I'm talking about. The Rift spell is "true" Chaos damage that includes all schools, while CB doesn't have physical or holy (for, we assume, PvP reasons). So because getting CB-locked doesn't lock 100% of the schools Dimensional Rift contains, you are still able to cast it - as you would still be able to cast SB if you got singularly fire or shadow locked.

  14. #114
    Sec, i'm on karazhan.

    If you get CB locked doesn't matter, CB is chaos and fucks up everything.

    If bio is right, i'm wrong

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    You can still use Rifts even when Chaos Bolt locked, actually, as a prime example of what I'm talking about. The Rift spell is "true" Chaos damage that includes all schools, while CB doesn't have physical or holy (for, we assume, PvP reasons). So because getting CB-locked doesn't lock 100% of the schools Dimensional Rift contains, you are still able to cast it - as you would still be able to cast SB if you got singularly fire or shadow locked.
    What I'm saying is, getting locked from both schools i.e. Chaos Bolt (which happens), will make Shadowburn unusable as well. Rifts have nothing to do with why this talent has even more restrictions and is bad in every situation. It still hits like a wet noodle, so damage isn't what's going for it and Backdraft is mandatory because the only viable spec now is a Chaos Bolt spec.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by effs View Post
    What I'm saying is, getting locked from both schools i.e. Chaos Bolt (which happens), will make Shadowburn unusable as well. Rifts have nothing to do with why this talent has even more restrictions and is bad in every situation. It still hits like a wet noodle, so damage isn't what's going for it and Backdraft is mandatory because the only viable spec now is a Chaos Bolt spec.
    Well sure, but that doesn't really matter, does it? Getting Chaos Bolt locked means you can't cast Conflag either, which SB is replacing. On the other hand, if you get fire locked while casting an Incinerate or something, you WILL be able to cast Shadowburn whereas you WON'T be able to cast Conflag. Considering that there are useful PvP talents that key off of Conflag/SB in addition to what it does on its own, that makes the school change an unequivocal buff.

    Also, if you're in arenas don't try and CB someone who has their interrupt up. That's, like, PvP 101 right there.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You are right on the basics, although int is much less there, as it's not like he had nothing to replace these pants with.

    That said difference between your run off the mill 880 pants and 910 Demonic Gateway pants is around 450 int, that alone is more than 1% DPS increase even without extra secondary stats. People seem to be forgetting about that part each time they complain about pants, while in reality they forget that because it's a leg slot it comes with a whole load of stats by default.

    Of course 1% is just 1%, but well, it's not 0% people seem to think when they look at these pants.
    Not to mention it's a fucking 30+ yard leap with immeasurable value to DPS output much in the same way Norgannon's will be come 7.1.5

    People don't understand how much having two back to back instant 30+ yard leaps helps their DPS.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Well sure, but that doesn't really matter, does it? Getting Chaos Bolt locked means you can't cast Conflag either, which SB is replacing. On the other hand, if you get fire locked while casting an Incinerate or something, you WILL be able to cast Shadowburn whereas you WON'T be able to cast Conflag. Considering that there are useful PvP talents that key off of Conflag/SB in addition to what it does on its own, that makes the school change an unequivocal buff.

    Also, if you're in arenas don't try and CB someone who has their interrupt up. That's, like, PvP 101 right there.
    The reason why it's a nerf is because right now, and the way it's always been since....getting locked from Chaos or fire schools allowed you to still use Shadowburn. In 7.1.5, that won't be the case.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by crakks View Post
    Only way to show real power is by the numbers. Some of players might not like it but it's how it is. Some utility here and there might not call item legendary. At least that's how I understand this concept.
    Numbers can be great just through their stats and itemlvl. There isn't really any need to have a special effect on them which is a dmg boost.

    On the other hand, pure utility legendaries could be so much fun. For example, turning our healthstones into a raid wide CD which heals the whole raid for a massive amount could be great, if your healers are struggling in certain situation. The portal legs can be rgeat if your group is struggling with movement on some mechanics, the slow ring can be great if something needs to be kited for a very long period of time (with absolute corruption = forever).

    So much interesting stuff which can alter boss strategies based on your group composition. It could be a good way to make every class "viable" again, due to the fact that every one can make your life much easier on certain bosses.

    The downside: Some classes and legendaries becoming mandatory to deal with X. But then they are just bad in designing bosses and items/classes. The boss design post Cataclysm (maybe MoP) was bad anyway, but such a system could make it even worse. Thats the only reason damage legendaries exist, 'cause more damage is always good, no matter if it is 10 or 1000.

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by effs View Post
    The reason why it's a nerf is because right now, and the way it's always been since....getting locked from Chaos or fire schools allowed you to still use Shadowburn. In 7.1.5, that won't be the case.
    I think you do not understand how interrupts work. Getting Chaos locked is equal to getting Fire and Shadow locked together in our case, meaning you won't be able to cast Shadowburn now either.

    HOWEVER, getting Shadow locked (fear interrupted) will allow Shadowburn to be cast, same with fire, if Incinerate gets locked you will still be able to cast Shadowburn just like now.

    If anything it's a buff actually.

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