You are players, not designers.

[Celista]

I'm guessing it's easier to get away with it, if you are just a cog in a machine. But then again, i think that people who have that approach, should not be designers or devs, of any magnitude, to begin with, then.

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Decline? The game jolted up it's subs to that of the Wrath era ; Ain't very like you to come off with such a condescending attitude :P

Same game, same complaints on the forums since I started playing. I'll believe sub numbers when Blizzard bothers to release them on a quarterly basis again.

It's not condescension, I have no desire to play the game again and am happy with all of my free time. Should have quit a couple of years before I did.

Only jumped into this thread to discuss the need for player feedback in general, but the thread devolved into the same tired arguments. This game and its players might as well be a time capsule.

[Lane]

Nah, if you were a games developer you wouldnt be making a game for unknown people around the world... you would make it out of your own design and desire, only changing things when the playerbase suggests.
The reason why games even are good is because the developers make it the way they think is good... imagine a completely new IP, nobody knows about it except the developers... how would they be able to make that game through "client" feedback when theres no feedback to begin with? the game isnt out yet so theres no feedback on it.

We see how well that worked out for Wildstar. :P

WoD is a good example of what happens when players get what they think they want.

No farming necessary for crafting,
No pre-raid gear 'locked behind' factions,
No "mandatory dailies"
No "mandatory professions through prof-specific stat bonuses"
No attunements or real prerequirements to any of the content
No weekly currency caps
No "need" to run outgeared content

We got everything the forums asked for during MoP under the banner of "No mandatory chores, we want to choose"
And after a while we were losing 100k+ subs per week as the game truly had turned into raid or die, garrison and logout and saw the worst apathy in the games entire history.

There's a big difference between making content mandatory and not making content at all.

1. If a restaurant would not offer an option to give feedback (I assume via internet as every restaurant can be told via the helpers), most customers would not even notice and very few would stop visiting the restaurant due to this lack. The making or breaking of a restaurant is due to what they serve, not due to what they offer in feedback after.

Restaurants are an odd choice of comparison since they routinely remove items from their menu due to lack of sales. Maybe if WoW were 'a la carte' where you only paid for the content you played it'd be applicable (and interesting). Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't like taking no for an answer on features they develop. They will repackage and redeliver content, often finding some way to make it mandatory to ensure player participation (then they can call it a success :P), and this cycle will continue despite (un)popularity until you have players saying, "It's just how it's always been."

No restaurant could operate that way. Even if you wanted to use buffets as a comparison the restaurant would have to require you visit the salad bar before you're allowed to eat a steak. Maybe they're the only steakhouse within a 100 mile radius or maybe they're the best steaks in the state so you deal with it (despite other patrons telling you if you don't like it stop coming :P), but that still sucks and it's not going to make anyone like salad who didn't already (and probably make those that hated it hate it even more).

Meanwhile, you are a foodie, and you've seen seafood restaurants do it way better, or you know what you and other foodies would like to see from this restaurant, but you're told you don't have any idea what you're talking about because you're not a chef. Particularly you're not a salad-loving chef and those chefs always know best (even though most of them had little to no background in food before this restaurant). So, you're supposed to eat your salad and not complain when that takes away from the experience of eating the steak because the salad made you too full, or nauseous, or whatever.

[Leonora]

Restaurants are an odd choice of comparison since they routinely remove items from their menu due to lack of sales.

Not where I live. Anyway, originally restaurants were chosen by someone else than me, purely for feedback. You are pulling the analogy much further, and then they generally fail.


> Maybe if WoW were 'a la carte' where you only paid for the content you played it'd be applicable (and interesting). Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't like taking no for an answer on features they develop. They will repackage and redeliver content, often finding some way to make it mandatory to ensure player participation (then they can call it a success :P), and this cycle will continue despite (un)popularity until you have players saying, "It's just how it's always been."

Not sure where you go with this. No player have has been able to say no to a wow feature, except by not buying the new xpac. If you want to be able to say no to features, you have to become boss of Blizzard...

> No restaurant could operate that way.

But this is exactly how restaurants work, at least around here. If you go to a restaurant here, you either have a satisfactory meal, or not. In case of the 'not' you never return, else you may return (lots of other food places). If the result is very satisfactory, returning is more likely.

[Lane]

Not where I live. Anyway, originally restaurants were chosen by someone else than me, purely for feedback. You are pulling the analogy much further, and then they generally fail.

Sorry your restaurants suck? :P I've lived in Atlanta, Orlando, Dallas, Denver, and NY, so maybe it's a big city thing. At least three of the restaurants I patronize now don't even keep the same menu month to month regardless of dish popularity.

The analogy was meant to be a little ridiculous (as most of them are).

Not sure where you go with this. No player have has been able to say no to a wow feature, except by not buying the new xpac.

That was my point. 'Voting with your wallet' doesn't work so well within a subscription model, especially if you enjoy more content than you dislike. Since Blizzard seemingly wants everyone to be a 'well-rounded' player, frequently imposing mandatory participation, opting out of content isn't always feasible either. Feedback is often the only recourse.

But this is exactly how restaurants work, at least around here.

Do you live in a tourist area? They'd have less incentive to change (unless their Yelp rating is bad) due to a perpetual stream of newcomers and not needing to rely on return customers.

[JoshuaNLG]

"My food is good you're not allowed to tell me how i could improve it!"

See how stupid you are with that argument that players aren't devs? No, we're not, but a lot of players have been playing WoW longer than most devs working for WoW have i bet, they make the game, we pay to play the game, surely it'd be wise for them to listen to the feedback from their CUSTOMERS, no?

Just look at the entire hunter community, pretty much everyone agrees on MM and BM being absolute garbage, not only output wise, but playstyle wise too, they were gutted so hard and uneccessarily so, meanwhile blizzard are sat there saying "no we like vulnerable so you'll like it too!"

[Glorious Leader]

Feedback is one thing, but people giving it actually expect their feedback to be implemented.

K and? This shouldnt be controversial in the slightest. They are consumers of a product as such they have certain expectation from that product and if the developers wish to continue having them as customers they will have to meet or exceed those expectations. Their is nothing controversial about that in the slightest.

Do you think people who offer feedback and criticism do so with the consent or expectation that it will be ignored? This seems quite pointless. Of course no one actually does. Feedback is given purposly with the hope that the developers will see the merit in it and move to address the concerns expressed.

I like legion. Its been a blast and most importantly theyve kept my sub since summer. It is not without flaws but if the game continues in this direction going forward i will happily maintain my subscription and whats more actively pursue my friends and family to play as well. Why? Because legion is a clealry a response to wide spread feedback and criticism in wod about how utterly awful the game was. It meets and in many cases exceeds the expectations the developers failed to do in wod.

[Jessicka]

This only applies to bad programmers and idiots who don't know how to perform basic debugging or limitation testing and forming of a product.

Which is a standard process in the Industry, so in other words, no, you are wrong - Perhaps basing it on some anecdote you found and skewed it to your view?

Where am I talking about bugs or limitations? If you want an anecdote, look at the development and evolution of the UI for Excel over the past 20 years and how increasingly commonly used features have become more and more prominent, even though the ability of the software to perform those tasks hasn't actually changed in that time; they've always been there, just not clear to the end users who wanted them.

[Al Gorefiend]

"Players aren't devs."

That's okay. Most people suspect devs these days aren't players.

When threads get roasted on page 1. Too bad I don't have any chestnuts, would go great for the holidays!

[Otaka]

We see how well that worked out for Wildstar. :P

Wildstar is one game within a sea of thousands of games.
Think about all the successfull games... they arent done through the use of customer feedback, they are purely developer fantasized and created games. Sequels might have little bit of customer feedback in them.

Also the other side of coin, did you see what happened to project cars? that game was solely created from listening to what racing game fans want... and it ended up being only decent. It had horrible AI and it was quite lackluster at launch.
And that should have been the best racing game ever... right? since customers were pretty much guiding the development alot more from the very start than any other game has ever been. :P
Its a good game but only regarded as decent among the simulator fans.

[ping-pong]

OP - and who the fuck are you to tell us what we can and cannot say?

Shh, listen and learn from smarter people. Getting all defensive just makes you not see the wisdom.

Also, I didn't tell you that you can't say. I told you to stop being a whiny depressed brat who hates devs because your spec is not no1 big D deeps. Be a gamer of old, who played and enjoyed the game, sent feedback when things were really broken, and didn't feel entitled to have the game exactly the way he wanted. Because a gamer of old was wise and knew that the game is played by many, with different tastes. A gamer of old, who valued challenge and not silver-plated serving of cookies. Resurrect that culture, don't go into this new-age bratty gamers cult with egos higher than Mt Everest, and knowledge and skill lower than Mariana's Trench. In other words, calm your tits and be free.

[Leonora]

That was my point. 'Voting with your wallet' doesn't work so well within a subscription model, especially if you enjoy more content than you dislike. Since Blizzard seemingly wants everyone to be a 'well-rounded' player, frequently imposing mandatory participation, opting out of content isn't always feasible either. Feedback is often the only recourse.

I still wonder what mindset you speak from. If you enjoy a game more than you have criticism, you play it. Else, you vote with your wallet and dont play it. Works perfectly. If you feel that rather than this approach (where the developers make a game up to their vision and you play it - or not), you can choose as player what features are in a game... I strongly doubt that leads to a good game. Players are often contradictory to each other, and dont always know what makes a good game no matter how strongly opiniated they are. I do have criticism on some choices Blizzard makes, but I would not be able to make the package they offer and I am happy to pay for their game, still.

> Do you live in a tourist area? They'd have less incentive to change (unless their Yelp rating is bad) due to a perpetual stream of newcomers and not needing to rely on return customers.

Not at all. And menu's rarely change here and I am happy about that, I like traditions.

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I like legion. Its been a blast and most importantly theyve kept my sub since summer. It is not without flaws but if the game continues in this direction going forward i will happily maintain my subscription and whats more actively pursue my friends and family to play as well. Why? Because legion is a clealry a response to wide spread feedback and criticism in wod about how utterly awful the game was. It meets and in many cases exceeds the expectations the developers failed to do in wod.

Bolded the funny part. Maybe you were personally unhappy about wod and stopped playing for a while, but in general wod was a fine xpac, with some flaws as every xpac, and a lot of people kept playing. There is indeed a nice development visible from Timeless Isle in Pandaria, to Tanaan Jungle + rares/dailies in wod, to the world buildup in current edition, but I think you see the ideas of developers with a touch of feedback rather than 'clear respons to widespread feedback'. Dont give too much weight to the minority that feels so strongly on forums.

[Glorious Leader]

I still wonder what mindset you speak from. If you enjoy a game more than you have criticism, you play it. Else, you vote with your wallet and dont play it. Works perfectly. If you feel that rather than this approach (where the developers make a game up to their vision and you play it - or not), you can choose as player what features are in a game... I strongly doubt that leads to a good game. Players are often contradictory to each other, and dont always know what makes a good game no matter how strongly opiniated they are. I do have criticism on some choices Blizzard makes, but I would not be able to make the package they offer and I am happy to pay for their game, still.

> Do you live in a tourist area? They'd have less incentive to change (unless their Yelp rating is bad) due to a perpetual stream of newcomers and not needing to rely on return customers.

Not at all. And menu's rarely change here and I am happy about that, I like traditions.

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Bolded the funny part. Maybe you were personally unhappy about wod and stopped playing for a while, but in general wod was a fine xpac, with some flaws as every xpac, and a lot of people kept playing. There is indeed a nice development visible from Timeless Isle in Pandaria, to Tanaan Jungle + rares/dailies in wod, to the world buildup in current edition, but I think you see the ideas of developers with a touch of feedback rather than 'clear respons to widespread feedback'. Dont give too much weight to the minority that feels so strongly on forums.

It was so fine that they basically did a 180 in legion and the butthurt shit heels who could raid log in wod find themselves forced to participate in other content.

[Lane]

Think about all the successfull games... they arent done through the use of customer feedback, they are purely developer fantasized and created games.

Well, all feedback isn't good feedback and I would never say it is. However, in this particular genre, there are many things that have already been tried and have been proven successes or failures. So, most of the time there's an existing frame of reference for whether or not something would be a good content addition or QoL improvement.

I still wonder what mindset you speak from. If you enjoy a game more than you have criticism, you play it. Else, you vote with your wallet and dont play it. Works perfectly.

I disagree it works perfectly. Were I to look at the metrics of dungeons, for example, I would see abnormally high participation because they've been used as a hard gate to everything from completing class hall campaigns to getting Loremaster (necessary for flying). I suppose a player could opt out of doing dungeons in protest, but they wouldn't be accomplishing much other than stalling their progression. Blizzard isn't going to know why that person isn't doing dungeons nor will they know that some of the people who are doing them would not have if given the choice without feedback. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

[Otaka]

Well, all feedback isn't good feedback and I would never say it is. However, in this particular genre, there are many things that have already been tried and have been proven successes or failures. So, most of the time there's an existing frame of reference for whether or not something would be a good content addition or QoL improvement.

Thats the same thing in every genre. Everything has been done before but what is left to be done is to do it better than ever before... and mix things together.
Weve had shooter mmos, thats one mixed up genre that started appearing after 2010... and it didnt exactly work if you ask me but we still have games like Division on the market.
Then there was that bold Dust 514 that was a shooter game embedded into a completely different type of game (eve online) and they were supposed to work in tandem in the same universe with players from both games visible to eachother in their own way. But sadly it never worked... also the fact that Dust was Playstation exclusive made it fail even faster. Eve Online is still PC only game so it was doomed to fail when it was not coming on PC.

But those are the new type of ideas that havent been tried yet. And there will be more.

[Relapses]

It was so fine that they basically did a 180 in legion and the butthurt shit heels who could raid log in wod find themselves forced to participate in other content.

Jesus fucking Christ dude, show us on the doll where the Mythic raiders touched you. You can't seem to enter a thread without mentioning your personal vendetta against anybody who dared to try raiding competitively while managing a full time job and life outside of WoW.

[Deleted]

Same game, same complaints on the forums since I started playing. I'll believe sub numbers when Blizzard bothers to release them on a quarterly basis again.

It's not condescension, I have no desire to play the game again and am happy with all of my free time. Should have quit a couple of years before I did.

Only jumped into this thread to discuss the need for player feedback in general, but the thread devolved into the same tired arguments. This game and its players might as well be a time capsule.

Well, they do say that War never changes... Holds true for the Forum wars as much as WoW :P

[Socialhealer]

we can tell that, i reckon players couldn't of fucked up this tiers dps rankings as bad as the devs did, spriest being almost twice the single target of some other specs?

cool story devs, keep telling yourself you're not clueless, warcraft logs tells me you know fuck all.

unless a dev wants to go single target on a survival hunter/ele shaman/destro lock and get a parse that would even appear in the 90th percentile of spriests instead of the 10th percentile.

[Snackwiches]

Meh.

Game is getting old, it's changed it's identity, people want the feeling they used to have and it'll never come back. I don't foresee people catching on to that. Ain't no way Blizzard is overhauling a game this old and this steeped in. They'd be better off just making another than pumping that much effort and time into this old thing.

And no, I don't really enjoy it anymore anyway, but that's why I dropped my sub. I think this is the end though, like I always felt like I'd come back for each expansion but... I just don't care anymore.

Equipment is still ugly as sin, combat is awful, classes are awful and I even feel like the new content is legitimately worse even. Like for as iffy as WoD was I liked it's dungeons and raids WAY more. For any issue I ever had in WoW I sure as fuck took longer than 2 months to totally burn out like I did with Legion.

But whatever, I don't see the point of crying too hard, blow off a little steam sure but no point in pissing on the designers, just drop an unsub message and say "thanks for the fun, game clearly isn't made for me anymore"

[Fiftyonred]

Jesus fuck, this community is so fucking toxic. Wish there was a feature to not be shown all the shit from random children, and just read the gaming related news.

[twiddler]

Successful companies ask for feedback so they can deliver a better quality product that best meets the needs of their consumer base. If you stopped offering players an avenue for feedback, many would simply stop playing.

Imagine a restaurant that told you that it didn't want feedback about the food that you just ate. That is what you are advocating.

Celista has the correct response. Companies open doors for competitors when they avoid customer feedback. The only companies that can get away avoiding feedback are companies who hold near monopolistic control over their respective sectors (e.g. telecom).