7.1.5 PTR Notes Changes for DPS DKs

[Tyrean]

Would the reason frost is doing higher on PTr be because they changed the proc rate of runic empowerment from 1% to 1.5%? Was that just a tooltip change of a hotfix that is already live?

[Maxweii]

Would the reason frost is doing higher on PTr be because they changed the proc rate of runic empowerment from 1% to 1.5%? Was that just a tooltip change of a hotfix that is already live?

Tooltip change only, no real effective change in it.

[rainzoro]

Why can't castigator just be baked in, seriously.

The only way to pop multiple wounds in a quick matter is through the RNG talent itself, absolutely annoying.

Don't even get me started on the legendary bracers, they just keep getting nerfed 1-5 -> 1-4 ->1-3....

I got the legendary bracer last Friday evening, and have been playing all weekend. And I have to say that the 1-5 -> 1-3. nerf is actually a welcomed nerf. The bracer can burst 8 wounds at max with castigator but I dont really get to use the maximum potential. I often find my self casting SS while with 5 or 6 wounds because casting FS while on 6 wounds and then hope the bracer proc at maximum (which is like 1% chance) is simply a waste of DPS. I would very much prefer to have the bracer proc less but instead have the base damage increased which is the direction we are currently going anyway. I think the current PTR change has already compensated the loss DPS by the bracer nerf, but it seems that more is to come so we'll see.

[KodoRealTalk]

There must be some amazing drugs floating around or some delicious cult kool-aid that I am unaware of, UF does not perform better in live encounters once you acquire the legendary bracers. If it did, you would see the most geared UH dks (who have or can obtain the gear to support it) running UF over Castigator (but if you look at every top UH DK in any fight you will see they aren't running it, I wonder why?). I have the bracers, I have tried it, I know. While you bring up good points of the Castigator system being a gamble, its a gamble you have to take. "Usually you will pop more, but not always which is the key difference", correct. Usually I will apply more wounds, usually I will pop more wounds and most importantly, USUALLY I will do more damage. And what I said about DC was not wrong, if you read it closely, those are probable scenarios. I'm not sure what illusion you have put yourself into to think that CS stands a chance against Castigator because it doesn't. I respect your association with the community and feedback you provide, but I am getting annoyed with the constant attacks on people that question the CS build even though it is proven to be outperformed by Castigator.

[0verdose]

Wtf if you're going into melee range in the first place then just stay there and do more damage.

I guess i forgot to mention in a high movement fight. My bad lol. Also fanak, I don't know why you are comparing unholy to frost on live currently because it is a fact that frost is superior. I didn't read all the posts but I thought that maxweii was talking about mast/cs builds stength and viability when 7.1.5 hits. I have no doubt it will be strong and hopefully the go to build. Castigator is fun and all but the rng just makes it too unreliable and is totally a contradiction to the way unholy should do dps imo.

[Maxweii]

There must be some amazing drugs floating around or some delicious cult kool-aid that I am unaware of, UF does not perform better in live encounters once you acquire the legendary bracers. If it did, you would see the most geared UH dks (who have or can obtain the gear to support it) running UF over Castigator (but if you look at every top UH DK in any fight you will see they aren't running it, I wonder why?). I have the bracers, I have tried it, I know. While you bring up good points of the Castigator system being a gamble, its a gamble you have to take. "Usually you will pop more, but not always which is the key difference", correct. Usually I will apply more wounds, usually I will pop more wounds and most importantly, USUALLY I will do more damage. And what I said about DC was not wrong, if you read it closely, those are probable scenarios. I'm not sure what illusion you have put yourself into to think that CS stands a chance against Castigator because it doesn't. I respect your association with the community and feedback you provide, but I am getting annoyed with the constant attacks on people that question the CS build even though it is proven to be outperformed by Castigator.

Yes, a big thing that was always pointed out with the bracers is that you can go that stat set and on ST near full uptime bosses UF will give you the highest damage and then otherwise you switch to CS to maintain still higher damage as well as mitigate the punishing nature of how UF is. Sorry, but I know more about how the legendary bracers work and how the conclusions were drawn on them as I was the one to find out all this info.
You will not usually do more damage, as you have nothing that's been said to prove that.
Nothing has "proven" that it is being outperformed, people just merely are like sheeps and go with what has been put in guides even if there are other things out there that have been proven just as thoroughly, but aren't in guides.

[KodoRealTalk]

Yes, a big thing that was always pointed out with the bracers is that you can go that stat set and on ST near full uptime bosses UF will give you the highest damage and then otherwise you switch to CS to maintain still higher damage as well as mitigate the punishing nature of how UF is. Sorry, but I know more about how the legendary bracers work and how the conclusions were drawn on them as I was the one to find out all this info.
You will not usually do more damage, as you have nothing that's been said to prove that.
Nothing has "proven" that it is being outperformed, people just merely are like sheeps and go with what has been put in guides even if there are other things out there that have been proven just as thoroughly, but aren't in guides.

Yup, I won't usually do more damage other than the fact that every UH DK who raids seriously and pushes highest content as UH runs the castigator build. It must have never crossed their minds to come to you for your amazing insight and knowledge in the ways of CS. QUICK, we have to warn all those top performing UH DKs that the info they gathered from their own research or other sources is wrong and they are just sheep. Those numbers and parses they put up in the highest percentiles are just fallacies. They must upload their real numbers to a different site (clearly not Warcraftlogs) that showcases their true potential. BUT WAIT! Those numbers prove nothing (Nothing has "proven" that it is being outperformed, well shit lets scroll down the pages of UH DKs running CS). Then how can we prove to them that your way is the best way if not with numbers? Quite the conundrum.

[PerryTP]

God I love all this contribution to the discussion. A 7 row paragraph, nothing useful in it

[Demeisen]

Considering there's no more patchwork fights, that difference is made up very easily and very realistically. As people should clearly be able to understand, yes a fight for a melee dps is about maximizing time in melee range when handling mechanics, however when you can still do near full damage from ranged while handling mechanics it makes things a lot easier and free's up mobility concerns. Castigator builds lose significant damage when out of range, CS builds do not.

Your claim was that CS is essentially equivalent to Castigator in a on-target situation. That simply isn't the case. Taking CS over Castigator is a higher DPS loss than taking DA over SR, and almost as much of a loss as taking Epi over PP. CS would need to provide significant value off-target to make up for that loss, and I can't see any evidence, on sims or logs (which, as others have pointed out, overwhelming favour Castigator), that it does.

[KodoRealTalk]

God I love all this contribution to the discussion. A 7 row paragraph, nothing useful in it

I am sorry for that and it is unfortunate. My initial post talked about Castigator and CS in accordance to possible changes to DC along with current synergies etc. I had no intentions of starting this argument.

[Deleted]

i love it when people argue with Maxweii. its always retarded and pointless. its hilarious

[Nayami]

i love it when people argue with Maxweii. its always retarded and pointless. its hilarious

Yeah haha it's so funny seeing other posters get Maxweii'd. He's unstoppable!

[Demeisen]

Back on topic, here's the same comparison between a mastery-heavy CS build and a crit-heavy Castigator build with the PTR CS changes applied (156% vs 130%):

[Senel]

Back on topic, here's the same comparison between a mastery-heavy CS build and a crit-heavy Castigator build with the PTR CS changes applied (156% vs 130%):

Did you apply the Garg buff/shadow aoe pet damage too?

[Demeisen]

No - I didn't think they were necessary for the purposes of that comparison, but I can see that those buffs would favor a mastery-heavy build. I'll take a look at re-running it with those overrides.

[Deleted]

Back on topic, here's the same comparison between a mastery-heavy CS build and a crit-heavy Castigator build with the PTR CS changes applied (156% vs 130%):

Try to Sim +2 Targets i am pretty sure Castigator will be much more ahead!

[Demeisen]

Took me a while to find what I believe are the correct overrides, but here's the comparison with the Vile Gas and Gargoyle Strike buffs accounted for (11.5k mas CS vs 11.5k crit Castigator, 10k iterations, patch):



Here are the overrides I used, in case I've screwed something up:

override.spell_data=effect.324719.base_value=156
override.spell_data=spell.212338.school=32
override.spell_data=effect.44400.sp_coefficient=2.00000

Edit: Correction - The fight length for these sims is 250 seconds, not 300 as previously stated.

[Deleted]

Took me a while to find what I believe are the correct overrides, but here's the comparison with the Vile Gas and Gargoyle Strike buffs accounted for (11.5k mas CS vs 11.5k crit Castigator, 10k iterations, patch):



Here are the overrides I used, in case I've screwed something up:

override.spell_data=effect.324719.base_value=156
override.spell_data=spell.212338.school=32
override.spell_data=effect.44400.sp_coefficient=2.00000

Edit: Correction - The fight length for these sims is 250 seconds, not 300 as previously stated.

Simmed Frost with my current Gear.

PTR vs Live



@Demeisen

I throught the newest Simcraft has already all the Buffs/Nerfs implemented?
Why did u needed to change the Pet values?

[Maxweii]

Your claim was that CS is essentially equivalent to Castigator in a on-target situation. That simply isn't the case. Taking CS over Castigator is a higher DPS loss than taking DA over SR, and almost as much of a loss as taking Epi over PP. CS would need to provide significant value off-target to make up for that loss, and I can't see any evidence, on sims or logs (which, as others have pointed out, overwhelming favour Castigator), that it does.

In a raiding environment they are equal, which you can clearly see and deduce if you think about it beyond just 'a sim says this'. You've failed to prove otherwise and so has everyone else.

No - I didn't think they were necessary for the purposes of that comparison, but I can see that those buffs would favor a mastery-heavy build. I'll take a look at re-running it with those overrides.

The ghoul change is huge for mastery builds. Like 5% or more damage increase. Just change the setting to PTR instead of live instead of using overrides and it will apply all the changes.

[Demeisen]

In a raiding environment they are equal, which you can clearly see and deduce if you think about it beyond just 'a sim says this'. You've failed to prove otherwise and so has everyone else.

I think we'll just have to disagree on that one!

The ghoul change is huge for mastery builds. Like 5% or more damage increase. Just change the setting to PTR instead of live instead of using overrides and it will apply all the changes.

Oops - you're right, I hadn't realised simc already put through the latest PTR changes. I re-simmed without overrides and the result was essentially the same as my sim above, i.e. showing a small DPS gain in going mas-CS over crit-Castigator, with CS being significantly better in AoE scenarios.