Are Brewmasters getting gimped with Paragon points?

[Tech614]

Brewmasters are getting way less benefit from the increase in armour due to us having low armour compared to most of the other tank classes. I hardly see how this is fair and just increases the gap between different classes.

You don't know how armor works in the game.

Hint: Diminishing Returns.

[Socialhealer]

OP doesn't understand how armour scales.

OP is wrong some people have done the math, but i enjoyed the laugh.

another example is going from 0-5000 armour will give you like 45% damage reduction turning a 100k hit into 55k.

going from 20000 armour to 25000 is probably like 62% armour to 65% you've gone from taking 38k to 35k.

in both cases each gained 5k armour, but which was the bigger gain the one with the most armour or the least?

TLDR = a monk will gain more damage reduction than any other tank due to lowest overall armour even if it is scaling by 10% not a flat armour amount the same still applies but to a smaller ratio.

[Khorm]

That's why it was a question.

[keqe]

You still get stamina/damage from the traits above 34 even though the tooltip tells otherwise. So it is still worth putting the points to them even if the armor was worthless.

[Llarold]

You still get stamina/damage from the traits above 34 even though the tooltip tells otherwise. So it is still worth putting the points to them even if the armor was worthless.

For what it's worth, barring the Stamina/Damage bonus (about which the in-game tooltip is inaccurate!), each point past the first is essentially worthless. I believe I've gotten less than 1% total damage reduction from 5 points past the initial prestige. Everything counts, for certain, but that <1% from extra armor is worth far, far, insultingly far less than the Stamina/Damage bonus.

Definitely still worth prestiging.

[pakky]

Guys really... saying that armor has "diminishing returns" isn't a good enough proof to say that brewmasters get more dr from the 35th trait... that's not how armor (and math) works.

Here is an example:

monk with 2800 armor: dr = 2800 / (2800 + 8164) = 25.5%
same monk with 35th trait 3080 armor: dr = 3080 / (3080 + 8164) = 27.4%
now we calculate how much dr the armor increase gave us: 1-(1-0.274)/(1-0.255) = 2.55%

now we do the same on a druid with 6800 armor:
base armor dr: dr = 6800 / (6800 + 8164) = 45.4%
armor dr with 35th trait: dr = 7480 / (7480 + 8164) = 47.8%
dr gained by the 35th trait: 1-(1-0.478)/(1-0.454) = 4.39%

[Xequecal]

Guys really... saying that armor has "diminishing returns" isn't a good enough proof to say that brewmasters get more dr from the 35th trait... that's not how armor (and math) works.

Here is an example:

monk with 2800 armor: dr = 2800 / (2800 + 8164) = 25.5%
same monk with 35th trait 3080 armor: dr = 3080 / (3080 + 8164) = 27.4%
now we calculate how much dr the armor increase gave us: 1-(1-0.274)/(1-0.255) = 2.55%

now we do the same on a druid with 6800 armor:
base armor dr: dr = 6800 / (6800 + 8164) = 45.4%
armor dr with 35th trait: dr = 7480 / (7480 + 8164) = 47.8%
dr gained by the 35th trait: 1-(1-0.478)/(1-0.454) = 4.39%

Druids get a larger benefit to their DR from armor because far more of Druid defenses are provided by their armor. In the end, the total "DR from armor" is irrelevant because it disregards all the other abilities. The fact is the trait reduces damage taken by Monks by ~8% while only reducing damage taken by Druids by 6%, thus the Monk trait is superior.

[Llarold]

the trait reduces damage taken by Monks by ~8%

Uhh, I don't believe that's accurate.

[Xequecal]

Uhh, I don't believe that's accurate.

That's just what the guy that posted the graph on the last page showed.

[Llarold]

That's nice, but at 40 points (+15% armor, just over half the total from 20/20) BrM gains a whopping 2.5% physical DR. If it didn't DR - which it does - it would finish at just under 5% DR. I would confirm precisely how much it is ingame, but I don't have 54 traits.

For now.

[Xequecal]

That's nice, but at 40 points (+15% armor, just over half the total from 20/20) BrM gains a whopping 2.5% physical DR. If it didn't DR - which it does - it would finish at just under 5% DR. I would confirm precisely how much it is ingame, but I don't have 54 traits.

For now.

Well, that wasn't really the point I was trying to get at. Let's say you have two tanks, one having a straight 50% DR from armor while the other gets 29.3% DR from armor and 29.3% from other sources, so they both have 50% overall. In this situation, giving both tanks 10% more armor benefits the second tank more than the first, even though the first tank got more total armor out of it. BrM benefits more from 10% armor than Druid because far more of Druids total DR package is concentrated in the armor.

[pakky]

Well, that wasn't really the point I was trying to get at. Let's say you have two tanks, one having a straight 50% DR from armor while the other gets 29.3% DR from armor and 29.3% from other sources, so they both have 50% overall. In this situation, giving both tanks 10% more armor benefits the second tank more than the first, even though the first tank got more total armor out of it. BrM benefits more from 10% armor than Druid because far more of Druids total DR package is concentrated in the armor.

Nope. The DR I shown in my previous post (2.55% for monks and 4.39% for druids) is the multiplicative damage reduction gained by the 35th trait alone. Which means that you can ignore every other source of dr since every separate damage reduction mechanic is multiplicative in this game. In the case of druids the real dr gained by the trait is even higher since they usually have way more armor during the course of a fight thanks to Ironfur.

[Deleted]

And what is this "demonstration" supposed to mean ?
You don't take into account the amount of DR that is granted by this additional armor. Just so you know, with the values you gave, if we consider that 10% armor on the 29.3% armor DR tank boosts him into a 32.2% (which is more than what it gives on live, in reality we're closer to 2.5% than 3.0%), then the full armor tank only needs to get 2% DR to get roughly the same benefits. Because the DR part granted by armor is overshadowed by the other mitigation.

And I still don't understand why you think that the stagger mechanic is a DR. It is in most case nothing more than a tool to transform impulsions of damage into something linear, you still have to be healed for these damage. Blocking is a DR, dodging is a DR, staggering in most case isn't. Hell, just look at the damage taken by a monk on a boss and compare it to other tanks. It is higher. Is it a concern though ? I would say no as celestial fortune compensate that quite nicely but it is a flat out lie to claim that "monks have more mitigation tool than most tanks", no they don't, they just delay the damage, they still take it.

[Deleted]

Let's compare 3 of my chars - tanks. Monky 880 and BDK 860 and bear 850. Neither of them have the 35th trait, as I rather spent the AP into WW and MW than that 10% for my play purposes.
Stats as given by WoW (for bear in bear form):
armour - 2547 vs 5229 vs 6407 (base 2136)
"mouseover information" on "physical dmg reduction" - 25.6% vs 41% vs 46%
dodge - 12.5% vs 3% vs 16
parry - 3% vs 18% vs 0

So basically my 20ilvl lower BDK has highest dodge + parry out of them all, while having only slightly worse physical dmg reduction from armour than bear (not including all the active stuff, i.e. immediately on a fresh pull). The difference is 15-20% from monk, which is where mastery comes in ... but both bear and BDK have their mastery too and it helps them tank too.
So I will get my 35th trait for my monk soon and my armour will skyrocket to ... below 3k anyway. I am more than happy to have my 885 Nerubian Husk procs and Heavy Hide on neck. It also let's me simulate a 3k armour without maths - I removed all armour (base armour 0) and let the mark proc: 3k armour = 29% dmg reduction. 28.87% to be precise. The difference is a whooping 3.2% dmg reduction.
Ironfur though to have some idea about diminishing returns with high armour ... 1 stack for my bear is 104% armour increase, so let's read the tooltips:
13070 armour = 63.9 dmg reduction at 1 stack
19734 armour = 72.75 dmg reduction at 2 stacks ... and I (at very lame ilvls and content - true) can keep up 2 stacks ez pz. The 35th trait can go to hell for a bear really, but for academical purposes I'd be interested if it buffs base armour, which is then buffed by 200% in bear form and further beefed by 104% for each ironfur ... I won't get there with my bear though. He's so boring!

[Deleted]

And once again, someone who doesn't understand how the DR works.

If you go from 98% damage reduction to 99%, how much do you gain ? If you keep your calculation the way you did you'll consider it as just an additionnal % DR.
While in fact it is 50%. For instance, on a brewmaster when heavy hide procs (i'll take your character armor to emphasize it), you go from 25.6% to 28.9. So instead of taking an hit that had a base value of 100 (which would be reduced to 74.4 with your base armor) it deals 71.1 damage to you. Therefore, you're taking 3.3 less damage from that hit compared to the previous hit you would've taken if not for the proc, 3.3/74.4*100=4.4%.

And even if the 35th trait isn't buffed by ironfur, that's basically 640 armor which means 7047 armor (no stack, 48.8%), 13710 (1 stack, 65.0%), 20374 (2 stacks, 73.4%) which means that regarding the additional DR granted by the paragon points its 5.2% DR without stacks, 3% at 1 stack and 2.4% at 2 stacks. So yeah, with the first point in their worse case scenario droods gains as much as monk with 5 points. Not a complain, just a statement.

[Deleted]

And once again, someone who doesn't understand how the DR works.

If you go from 98% damage reduction to 99%, how much do you gain ? If you keep your calculation the way you did you'll consider it as just an additionnal % DR.
While in fact it is 50%.

I may not understand how DR works (but have a feeling for it), I do understand how math works though. The way you just twisted 1% vs 2% into 50% (not of total, but of the difference, while we're talking about total) ... gaaaah! I know it's all about putting the numbers and signs in the manner you feel best suits your agenda, but I wrote my note (believe it or not) WITHOUT any agenda

[Deleted]

Guys really... saying that armor has "diminishing returns" isn't a good enough proof to say that brewmasters get more dr from the 35th trait... that's not how armor (and math) works.

Here is an example:

monk with 2800 armor: dr = 2800 / (2800 + 8164) = 25.5%
same monk with 35th trait 3080 armor: dr = 3080 / (3080 + 8164) = 27.4%
now we calculate how much dr the armor increase gave us: 1-(1-0.274)/(1-0.255) = 2.55%

now we do the same on a druid with 6800 armor:
base armor dr: dr = 6800 / (6800 + 8164) = 45.4%
armor dr with 35th trait: dr = 7480 / (7480 + 8164) = 47.8%
dr gained by the 35th trait: 1-(1-0.478)/(1-0.454) = 4.39%

Apples to oranges, you cannot compare a stat between two classes without taking these classes as a whole into equation. Druid is very DR based thus Armor and other skills. BM has stagger mechanic and is able to get more of it/clear it.


It's like saying that a bullet is weaker than a knife only because you took out a gun out of equation.

[pakky]

Apples to oranges, you cannot compare a stat between two classes without taking these classes as a whole into equation. Druid is very DR based thus Armor and other skills. BM has stagger mechanic and is able to get more of it/clear it.

I know different classes have different ways to mitigate damage, but that doesn't change anything of what i said. The point of the discussion was if the 10% armor trait was stronger for other classes than it is for us, and in fact IT IS.

Let me rephrase: the 35th artifact trait reduces LESS DAMAGE for monks than it does for any other tank. period. I'm not talking about armor dr in general, only the trait itself.
Using the numbers in my example the trait could literally say "reduce physical damage taken by 2.55%" for monks and "Reduce physical damage taken by 4.39%" for druids. The fact that different classes have other mitigations on top of that doesn't really matter in evaluating the trait itself since they all multiply together.

Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's weaker for us nonetheless and since a lot of people have wrong ideas about how armor diminishing return works I'm trying to make it as clear as possible.

[Deleted]

I may not understand how DR works (but have a feeling for it), I do understand how math works though. The way you just twisted 1% vs 2% into 50% (not of total, but of the difference, while we're talking about total) ... gaaaah! I know it's all about putting the numbers and signs in the manner you feel best suits your agenda, but I wrote my note (believe it or not) WITHOUT any agenda

It's not about trying to fit numbers into an agenda. The more % DR you have, the stronger any additional % to that previous DR value is. That's why the more versatility you have, the stronger each point is (going from 0 to 1% damage reduce is taking 99 damage instead of 100 which is a 1% decrease, going from 98 to 99% is taking 1 damage instead of 2 therefore it is a 50% decrease). This is not about pushing an agenda, I don't like the way brewmasters are balanced right now defensively but it makes sense considering how broken stagger is. But this fact doesn't change the way the maths of mitigation work.

[Grenxis]

Is it the end of the world? Of course not, but it's weaker for us nonetheless and since a lot of people have wrong ideas about how armor diminishing return works I'm trying to make it as clear as possible.

Ooooy folks, just on a sidenote to this quote, while some do know and others don't, I see people discussing damage reduction while being quoted and argued with for diminishing returns, the other way around or others talking about both in the same post calling them both DR :-o

Being made this note I'll peace out hoping the discussion stays healthy as it is.

P.S. Thanks, BaltazarDZ for the graphic! (i.e. post #18) Indeed, seems monks won't be nearing the diminishing values anytime soon, a good base for me to rethink my main in the near future.

Peace out! :-)