Survival - The Dream

[Nurvus]

To be fair, would make much more sense to make BM the melee spec then SV because BM is already effected a lot by melee mechanics: most of its damage comes from melee attacks anyway, it target switch like melee, AoE like melee and is not effective against flying or island targets, just like melee.

Currently, BM is a melee spec that has to deal with range mechanics instead of melee stuff.

Lore wise, it would make more sense too, and Rexxar won't have to be SV hunter now.

Rexxar IS the definition of Beastmaster in WC3.
So I agree.
But between my suggestion and suggestions like "rework 2 specs", "undo what you did" or "make X melee instead of Y", I think mine is a lot more likely to get somewhere :P

[Deleted]

To be fair, would make much more sense to make BM the melee spec then SV because BM is already effected a lot by melee mechanics: most of its damage comes from melee attacks anyway, it target switch like melee, AoE like melee and is not effective against flying or island targets, just like melee.

Currently, BM is a melee spec that has to deal with range mechanics instead of melee stuff.

Lore wise, it would make more sense too, and Rexxar won't have to be SV hunter now.

TBH first of all isnt a good idea to use warcraft heroes as base for classes.


Rexxar is melee (SV) but heavy dep on beast so BM


BM would have been a nice hybrid melee/ranged spec like i said, with other CD like Bestial Wrath (with maybe some melee mechanics) just to stick with the idea of "you and your pet fighting alongside as 1"

MM is the usual ranged PEWPEWIMTARD wanna be sniper

SV is a jolly spec, was melee in Vanilla, ArP precursur in Sunwell, then Magic DMG wanna be caster.

[Deleted]

go back to the salt factory. just settle with old survival coming back as a 4th spec.

yes lets make a 4th spec when they fail misserable to even balance the 3 current one we have.
/golfclap

[Bepples]

your attitude is so retard

Beautiful.

To be fair, would make much more sense to make BM the melee spec then SV because BM is already effected a lot by melee mechanics: most of its damage comes from melee attacks anyway, it target switch like melee, AoE like melee and is not effective against flying or island targets, just like melee.

Currently, BM is a melee spec that has to deal with range mechanics instead of melee stuff.

Lore wise, it would make more sense too, and Rexxar won't have to be SV hunter now.

I don't give a fuck what you think makes sense. Why do people always feel the need to reinforce that there needs to be a melee spec for hunters? The time to do that was in Vanilla, not 12 years in when hunters have long since settled into 3 ranged specs. So, fuck your lore and RP. Common sense takes precedence.

Harpoon having 3-40 range instead of 5-40.

Good idea, and while they're at it they should also make all Survival abilities a 40 yard range.

yes lets make a 4th spec when they fail misserable to even balance the 3 current one we have.
/golfclap

This. They consistently fail at balancing the number of specs they have and there is next to NO demand for melee hunters and thus next to no audience for 7.0 Survival. Therefore 7.0 Survival should be removed in favour of the previous model which was infinitely more successful.

[Trapstarz]

Beautiful.



I don't give a fuck what you think makes sense. Why do people always feel the need to reinforce that there needs to be a melee spec for hunters? The time to do that was in Vanilla, not 12 years in when hunters have long since settled into 3 ranged specs. So, fuck your lore and RP. Common sense takes precedence.



Good idea, and while they're at it they should also make all Survival abilities a 40 yard range.



This. They consistently fail at balancing the number of specs they have and there is next to NO demand for melee hunters and thus next to no audience for 7.0 Survival. Therefore 7.0 Survival should be removed in favour of the previous model which was infinitely more successful.

You seem to be the guy who hate change in every situation ever

[Knaar]

no.1 fix to survival: make it ranged

I'd say that Blizzard should release a new class and include current Survival to that new class (or hell, give a forth spec to another class, for all i care) and give us back a second real archer/ranger type of spec since we only have 1 in the game... it's sad :/

[Deleted]

yes lets make a 4th spec when they fail misserable to even balance the 3 current one we have.
/golfclap

*

This

Isn't the "oh God melee spec" the problem because even MM and BM are in an awful state, if they did a good job even SV melee would have been viable.

[threads]

no.1 fix to survival: make it ranged

this is the true dream

[xZerocidex]

yes lets make a 4th spec when they fail misserable to even balance the 3 current one we have.
/golfclap

Wouldn't have that problem if they would stop redesigning the specs every xpac.

Hopefully they can go back the MoP Hunter design and leave well enough the fuck alone.

[Nurvus]

Ideally, for me, we should have 2 BM specs, one ranged, one melee, and then PROPER SV and MM.

But to those complaining about SV being Melee - there was never any real separation between SV and MM other than VFX.
The main difference was that MM was usually the spec with higher skill cap - maybe that's why SV was so popular.

The only thing that really pisses me about Blizzard changing stuff is when they want to keep popular names for the sake of nostalgia but then make the skill irrecognizable or pure shit - like Holy Wrath and Chimera Shot.

I don't give a fuck what you think makes sense.

Goes both ways.

[Nouk]

Ahhh, Fpiceail the endless source of salt in these threads. hilarious!

@OP some decent suggestions in there, but i think Blizz will really get to the meaty stuff with another pre-patch for next expansion. In-expansion reworks
were mostly a luxury for Warlocks until now (and DK? cant remember WotLK that much)
Oh, and i dont care if its ranged or melee as long as the core mechanics stay the same, especially Mongoose management. Since insta-cast ranged DPS is pretty much unbalanceable/inconceivable for Blizz, i wouldnt keep my hopes up for that though. turret gameplay it is for ranged.

[Nurvus]

Ahhh, Fpiceail the endless source of salt in these threads. hilarious!

@OP some decent suggestions in there, but i think Blizz will really get to the meaty stuff with another pre-patch for next expansion. In-expansion reworks
were mostly a luxury for Warlocks until now (and DK? cant remember WotLK that much)
Oh, and i dont care if its ranged or melee as long as the core mechanics stay the same, especially Mongoose management. Since insta-cast ranged DPS is pretty much unbalanceable/inconceivable for Blizz, i wouldnt keep my hopes up for that though. turret gameplay it is for ranged.

I still don't understand how "instant cast ranged" can be considered a "characteristic" of a spec (wasn't you who said it).
I hope they fix MM and:
1 - Make old SV gameplay available AND viable through MM Talents, including Black Arrow, Lock n Load, Explosive Shot, etc.
2 - Make sniper gameplay also dependant on MM Talents.
3 - Make core MM gameplay something that isn't too far away from old SV or MM, and thus compatible with 1 and 2.

If Blizzard went as far as making Rexxar "Survival", I have no hopes that Blizzard will ever make BM Melee.

[Bepples]

You seem to be the guy who hate change in every situation ever

Quite the opposite. I've only really played a Paladin and Hunter, but I can say for those two that I've been behind every major rework up until (but not including) WoD. And that's saying something because there have been a lot for those two classes. Paladins got major reworks in BC, WotLK, and Cataclysm, along with more tame changes in MoP. And I thought all of them legitimately improved the class. Same with hunters: we got switched to focus in Cata and then from then on we got a lot of changes which TRULY enhanced our class identity; none of this post-7.0 "class fantasy" buzzword nonsense. It was only in WoD that things started to turn towards the negative for hunters, but it wasn't too drastic then. 7.0, in contrast, is probably the worst butchering of a class I've ever seen. They got all three specs so badly wrong it would be funny if we didn't have to deal with it directly.

Since we are on the topic of baseless character judgements, you seem to be the guy who backs every change made by Blizzard on account of it being change alone, and not based on any actual merit. Innovation for the sake of innovation, as they say.

Isn't the "oh God melee spec" the problem because even MM and BM are in an awful state, if they did a good job even SV melee would have been viable.

There is no "the problem". There are several problems plaguing the class. MM and BM being shit is one. SV being melee is another. And they complement each other: if SV went melee but BM and MM remained good alternatives, you'd see less salt and disdain about SV. The fact that BM and MM are both shit but people STILL suffer through that instead of playing a melee spec really says something about the hunter audience for melee (or the lack thereof).

But to those complaining about SV being Melee - there was never any real separation between SV and MM other than VFX.
The main difference was that MM was usually the spec with higher skill cap - maybe that's why SV was so popular.

Regurgitated nonsense, plain and simple. The only way people make this laughable argument is by pointing out that if you ignore literally every single playstyle and ability set difference, MM and SV both used a ranged weapon and therefore they must be the same (funny how if you ignore the differences, there are no differences). This is, of course, as pants-on-head retarded as arguing that fire mages and shadow priests are the same thing because they both use spells with mana, or that survival hunters and ret paladins are the same because they both use 2-handed weapons. But you'll never see people like you admit that, though.

Also, I don't give a damn about how now SV is more unique when compared to MM than before. Believe it or not, uniqueness is not the end-all issue to spec design. For most hunters there are now 2 specs for the class because nearly none of us picked this class to play a melee. So kindly fuck off with talk about how everyone should be happy because it's more diverse because you are not going to convince anyone: it means JACK SHIT for most of us.

I still don't understand how "instant cast ranged" can be considered a "characteristic" of a spec (wasn't you who said it).
I hope they fix MM and:
1 - Make old SV gameplay available AND viable through MM Talents, including Black Arrow, Lock n Load, Explosive Shot, etc.
2 - Make sniper gameplay also dependant on MM Talents.
3 - Make core MM gameplay something that isn't too far away from old SV or MM, and thus compatible with 1 and 2.

If Blizzard went as far as making Rexxar "Survival", I have no hopes that Blizzard will ever make BM Melee.

Why bother with all these work-arounds and compromises to preserve a melee survival when it's such a deeply unpopular spec?

And the reason you don't understand why being fast-paced can be considered a characteristic of a spec is because you are being willingly ignorant, plain and simple. You are deliberately ignoring basic class design concepts to further a point. So that's your problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Since insta-cast ranged DPS is pretty much unbalanceable/inconceivable for Blizz

You hear this a lot even though it is total nonsense. The fully mobile specs (BM and SV) throughout MoP and WoD just about always did less DPS than most other ranged classes in the game. There were exceptions like certain underpowered ranged specs of other classes, or MM being weaker in SoO, but the fact still stands that more mobility universally leads to less DPS for hunters. The fact that we had full mobility for several years without major balance issues arising is proof that what you said is nonsense.

So come up with a better lie next time.

[Ambulatory Cube]

It sure would be nice to have just one thread for people who actually enjoy melee Survival (hi, we exist!) to discuss the spec without the salt goblins barging in and vomitting up the same old "get rid of it" rhetoric over and over. You all have a million other threads to wave your pitchforks and torches in, thank you.


The more I think about it, the more the current Mastery kinda reminds me of Windwalker's back in MoP, where attacks had a chance to grant extra stacks of Tigereye Brew. Useful in theory, garbage in practice, heh. Maybe if it instead increased the damage bonus of Mongoose Fury? I'm not a numbers guy so I dunno how that would play out, but at least we'd been in a position to maybe feel more use out of the stat, and have it scale.

I'm also in the camp that would prefer to have Mongoose Fury stacks cap at 3 instead of 6, or maybe have Aspect of the Eagle grant a few stacks. Either way, as it stands, reliably getting to 6 stacks while Snake Hunter is on CD is a pain in the ass RNG-fest. It's nice when the stars align, but my stars always seem to align in a way that I reach 6 stacks right when the boss does a thing that requires me to get the heck outta dodge, or I reach the stacks just as the buff is about to drop off.

Oh man would I love for Harpoon to work like Grappling Hook, LOL. That hook is so useful I really miss it when I'm not on my rogue. At the same time though that would feel a little silly to me--a harpoon is meant to pierce flesh, not provide a stable anchor in terrain. From a gameplay standpoint I wouldn't mind it though, ha.

[Nurvus]

And the reason you don't understand why being fast-paced can be considered a characteristic

Yeah... no.
Instant casts isn't fast paced, nor a characteristic.
Survival has always been ranged with all the advantages and none of the downsides of melee.
At least BM has the disadvantage of Melee on its biggest damage output - pets.

But by all means let's continue to discuss personal taste and pretend it's fact and everyone's opinion.

Survival had no characteristics to distinguish it from MM other than BONUS to Trap damage, which were thrown at the enemies like a grenade, and difference in damage type.

I'd love Blizzard to come up with a PROPER Ranged Survival spec that doesn't share 60% of the Abilities and 80% of the Talents with Marksmanship.
I'd love Blizzard to make the Hunter Melee spec Beastmaster-y instead of Survival-y.

But that's even less likely to happen than my suggestion.

[Bepples]

Yeah... no.
Instant casts isn't fast paced, nor a characteristic.
Survival has always been ranged with all the advantages and none of the downsides of melee.
At least BM has the disadvantage of Melee on its biggest damage output - pets.

But by all means let's continue to discuss personal taste and pretend it's fact and everyone's opinion.

Survival has historically done far less damage than pretty much every other ranged spec in the game, but please by all means continue living in your deluded fantasy world where everything between 2012 and 2016 didn't happen (i.e. when survival was a fully mobile spec which was not some overpowered juggernaut like you seem to be pretending).

[Fang7986]

Current Survival plays the way I've wanted the Survival spec to play since I started playing wow over a decade ago. My dream is here stop trying to ruin it.

[Nurvus]

Survival has historically done far less damage than pretty much every other ranged spec in the game, but please by all means continue living in your deluded fantasy world where everything between 2012 and 2016 didn't happen (i.e. when survival was a fully mobile spec which was not some overpowered juggernaut like you seem to be pretending).

So full mobility in exchange for less damage is a characteristic AND acceptable, right?
I forgot this thread was about tuning instead of gameplay. Oh wait...
I'm glad you don't read the whine in the forums, though.

[Trapstarz]

Since we are on the topic of baseless character judgements, you seem to be the guy who backs every change made by Blizzard on account of it being change alone, and not based on any actual merit. Innovation for the sake of innovation, as they say.

I think we don't use the word "seem" the same way. And only time will tell if that was such an inconvenience, maybe we can see something better than ever wake up from the ashes of the actual SV spec ?

Just to add up, the only time I really liked how Hunter was made was during Cata (PvE and PvP) before the DS 2p (You could easily fail with a +7 focus generator) and during HFC in PvE because it was OP, easy and on top of that we had the opportunity to outdamage others hunter by taking advantage from swapping target if their were full or under execution health. But do I cry to get these system back ? Hell no, I play this game to be amaze and discover new way to play. Not to play the same way over and over.

In that regard, current SV spec maybe is the worse mistake ever made by Blizzard ever for you but for me it's a great way to build something new.

Regurgitated nonsense, plain and simple. The only way people make this laughable argument is by pointing out that if you ignore literally every single playstyle and ability set difference, MM and SV both used a ranged weapon and therefore they must be the same (funny how if you ignore the differences, there are no differences). This is, of course, as pants-on-head retarded as arguing that fire mages and shadow priests are the same thing because they both use spells with mana, or that survival hunters and ret paladins are the same because they both use 2-handed weapons. But you'll never see people like you admit that, though.

Ok. You said it. What was I changing in my bars when I was swapping from SV to MM and vice versa (during MoP) ? Chimera vs Exploshot. AimS vs Black arrow. big woop. That's the point behind "MM and SV was too much of the same". There were only 2 spells changing since Steadyshot and Cobrashot changed themselves. Maybe playstyle was different but stil no major change. Can you admit that, though ?

Also, I don't give a damn about how now SV is more unique when compared to MM than before. Believe it or not, uniqueness is not the end-all issue to spec design. For most hunters there are now 2 specs for the class because nearly none of us picked this class to play a melee. So kindly fuck off with talk about how everyone should be happy because it's more diverse because you are not going to convince anyone: it means JACK SHIT for most of us.

And for others it's a great way of enjoying the melee world with a singular different spec than others like monks/warriors/rogue and KEEPING their main.
You seem pissed but that should not hide the fact that there are people that are enjoying it and maybe it will stay the same because whiners doesn't represent that much money for Blizzard and they want to investigate a new way to play ? Get over it and ask for change about BM and MM instead of throwing your rage at the current SV spec.

Why bother with all these work-arounds and compromises to preserve a melee survival when it's such a deeply unpopular spec?

It's simple, if SV would have been superior and better than MM or BM in PvE, Blizzard would have suffer the rage from butthurt hunters that want to be range and don't want to spec melee to be competitive. In that regard Blizzard need to let time flow and wait that the ragers let it sink in to make it competitive afterwards (like NH or next raid). Imagine your rage (yes it's hard but you can accomplish that I believe in you) if SV was better in ST then MM ? Dude poor keyboard.
The community is the one major but the only issue of the Survival Legion spec.

[Bepples]

So full mobility in exchange for less damage is a characteristic AND acceptable, right?
I forgot this thread was about tuning instead of gameplay. Oh wait...
I'm glad you don't read the whine in the forums, though.

"Survival has always been ranged with all the advantages and none of the downsides of melee."
"Actual downsides don't count"

Good to know.

- - - Updated - - -

Current Survival plays the way I've wanted the Survival spec to play since I started playing wow over a decade ago. My dream is here stop trying to ruin it.

I'm sure glad they shafted the multitudes of people who preferred ranged survival to benefit the tiny minority preferring melee of which you're a part.

In that regard, current SV spec maybe is the worse mistake ever made by Blizzard ever for you but for me it's a great way to build something new.

Instead of attempting to defend 7.0 survival based on merit, you chose to defend it on the basis that it's new. It looks like I was pretty spot-on when I said you believed in innovation for innovation's sake, then.

Ok. You said it. What was I changing in my bars when I was swapping from SV to MM and vice versa (during MoP) ? Chimera vs Exploshot. AimS vs Black arrow. big woop. That's the point behind "MM and SV was too much of the same". There were only 2 spells changing since Steadyshot and Cobrashot changed themselves. Maybe playstyle was different but stil no major change. Can you admit that, though ?

This recent frenzy for specs that are completely distinct is a very recent thing, driven by delusions of "class fantasy". Before 7.0, there was an understanding that there was a base hunter class with its own abilities (steady shot, multi shot, traps, other utility), along with a spec that enhanced certain aspects of that class. So yes, Survival and MM shared a lot of utility and a couple fo damage abilities (Multi-shot, as well as Cobra shot which was pretty much the same as Steady Shot), the ones that differed made the playstyle distinct. Survival was more fast-paced than MM: it's abilities did less damage for less focus and shorter cooldowns. Survival was mobile, MM was not. Survival had to multidot, MM didn't. MM focused on burst, SV focused on sustained.

If they were the same thing, why did vast amounts of people prefer Survival over MM, even at times where MM was stronger?

So no, I have nothing to admit because it'[s a full-of-shit proposition from a full-of-shit poster.

And for others it's a great way of enjoying the melee world with a singular different spec than others like monks/warriors/rogue and KEEPING their main.
You seem pissed but that should not hide the fact that there are people that are enjoying it and maybe it will stay the same because whiners doesn't represent that much money for Blizzard and they want to investigate a new way to play ? Get over it and ask for change about BM and MM instead of throwing your rage at the current SV spec.

You must be out of your mind if you think you should shift to any sort of popularity argument to defend SV. It's middle-of-the-pack for PvP and literally last place for PvE.

And Survival was my favourite spec ever before 7.0 but I'm not allowed to call bullshit when they literally steal it for the sake of a tiny niche of players? Get the fuck out of here.

It's simple, if SV would have been superior and better than MM or BM in PvE, Blizzard would have suffer the rage from butthurt hunters that want to be range and don't want to spec melee to be competitive. In that regard Blizzard need to let time flow and wait that the ragers let it sink in to make it competitive afterwards (like NH or next raid). Imagine your rage (yes it's hard but you can accomplish that I believe in you) if SV was better in ST then MM ? Dude poor keyboard.
The community is the one major but the only issue of the Survival Legion spec.

All right....so they understand that the majority of hunters would hate it if Survival was stronger. What the fuck do you think that says about Survival being melee? If they are aware that it's going to be vastly unpopular from the outset, why bother with the melee revamp?