Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

This, gotta be sarcasm, right?

isnt it obvious ?

[Ielenia]

isnt it obvious ?

In the internet? In this forum? It's impossible to know.

[Roar-Powah]

I've been looking around at the population of various different private servers and I'm blown away just how popular they are. Blizzard are really stupid not to cash in on this.

[Vash The Stampede]

Except they were pretty much forced to. At the end of Wrath, they had to add the "You must spend 41 points in this tree before you acn unlock the next one", to stop people from getting too creative. Case in point, dual-wield Resto shamans, while they could work in theory in Wrath, would been a certainty otherwise, once we got the extra points from Cata levels, and would have been incredibly OP.

That would either have meant keeping the system at the time, where each tree had a bunch of passive +1% stat filler talents, or they would have had to go down the "1 talent per x levels" path, cutting down on all the passives, turning them baseline instead, and still leaving us with being forced into one spec until a certain number of talent points had been spent.

If you remember in Cata they went back to the 31 point talent trees. Yea this helps them deal with creative players, but that's what made it fun. The system came from Diablo 2, which was also fun for this reason. The MoP system came from Diablo 3, which really sucks. Look at Dark Souls where the developers intentionally left a lot of talent systems that weren't done right, and easily broke the game. But that was part of the game. But that's why we pay Blizzard to actively develop the game so that we can enjoy these talents.

Now look what happened. In WoD they pretty much changed nothing, which pissed off people. Then they changed everything in Legion and separated the PvP talents. They still fight creative players cause someone will always find a hidden mechanic that developers weren't aware of. Classes are homogenized more so than ever before as a method to make balancing easier. So now as a Ret Paladin I feel like I'm a Warrior now, with a PvP mode that's separate from my PvE mode. I don't have any Aura's or Seals anymoire. And we pay $15 a month for this?

I honestly cannot think of a single change that wasn't beneficial to the game.

Ahem...

On the first day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a LFR and it wasn't even free.
On the second day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, Talent system that's still a failure.
On the third day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, world quests that are too easy.
On the forth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, CRZ that makes resources hard to see
On the fifth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, 4 raid difficulties.
On the sixth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, Pokemon Go.
On the seventh day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a built in store.
On the eighth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, epics as far as I can see.
On the ninth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, instant nearly max level characters.
On the 10th day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a single player game with a monthly fee.
On the 11th day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, 3 dungeon difficulties.
On the 12th day of Blizzard failures, they bought onto me, paid character transfers!

The old talent trees weren't fun. Going up a level for... what? Gaining 1% crit or 1% haste? Kinda lackluster. Not to mention the fact you sometimes had to spend points in a talent you had no desire to spend points on, simply because it needed to be maxed out to unlock another talent down the road.

That's your opinion, but my opinion is that older talent system was fun. It was fun cause you could do creative things with it.

Did you watch that video? None of those (save one) of those options can be implemented in WoW, due to how the game engine works. The one that can (inviting friends) already exists.

A lot of what Dark Souls does, was already in Vanilla. One difficulty and not many. Some classes were easier to level than others, like in Dark Souls where casters are easier than melee. Dark Souls doesn't care if someone runs around the game with a weapon far more powerful than most players, like back in Vanilla.

Of course it didn't. Because the game didn't stay like vanilla throughout the expansions. Mechanics and classes changed from expansion to expansions. Features were added and features were removed. If the game, today, expansion after expansion, didn't change its mechanics at all, didn't introduce new classes or races at all, I am almost certain it would be dead or near death.

Not talking about good features, talking about bad features like Heroic raids and LFR. Cata was the expansion to bring those concepts out and why I believe WoW started to decline.

[Blayze]

TBC, which I argue is even harder and less accessible than Vanilla, had a steady subscriber increase.

The fuck are you smoking?

Token gear, less of an emphasis on resist sets, catch-up options... TBC was more accessible than Vanilla, and Wrath more accessible than TBC. That's why they saw subscriber growth during those expansions. Guess what happened next?

Cataclysm started with Blizzard trying to punish casuals for daring to play their game, and it ended with them having to cave because millions had quit and their game was going to die if they didn't appease the 'scrubs' who paid the bills.

That's why 4.3 brought people back; Blizzard had to learn that lesson. We thought Mists and its plethora of things to do was proof they'd done that, because people came back (though less did than would have, given the apparent kiddy theme), but then they went right back to shitty form with Warlords with fuck all world content. This time they didn't give anyone anything, but God forbid they cut the raiding to appease the fucking casuals for once.

[Vineri]

Cataclysm started with Blizzard trying to punish casuals for daring to play their game, and it ended with them having to cave because millions had quit and their game was going to die if they didn't appease the 'scrubs' who paid the bills.

That's why 4.3 brought people back; Blizzard had to learn that lesson. We thought Mists and its plethora of things to do was proof they'd done that, because people came back (though less did than would have, given the apparent kiddy theme), but then they went right back to shitty form with Warlords with fuck all world content. This time they didn't give anyone anything, but God forbid they cut the raiding to appease the fucking casuals for once.

Did 4.3 bring people back? Subscriptions plateaued during WotLK, as China subscriptions were on the rise, as a notable source. Global accounts plateaued, with China included (which was new to the game). NA / EU interest was falling. Cataclysm was lackluster. Blizzard scrambled to grab China, which was on the rise (!).

I don't think 4.3 did as well as you think.

PS - it wasn't a kiddy theme, it was a theme directed to a Chinese audience; you can blame Blizzard marketing for that.

[Blayze]

Did 4.3 bring people back?

The subscriber bleed certainly stopped. On a personal level, enough of my old guild came back after the overtuned 10 normal 4.0 and 4.2 raids (and the overtuned dungeons) drove them away for us to beat DS. I think people heard about Raid Finder and decided they might finally be able to see the conclusion to at least ONE story that expansion.

it wasn't a kiddy theme, it was a theme directed to a Chinese audience;

I mean the perception of the theme was that it was kiddy. If Blizzard had led with the sha and Shado-Pan stuff in the CGI cinematic and reveal trailer, perception could have been much different.

[Ielenia]

Ahem...

On the first day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a LFR and it wasn't even free. -- Beneficial, IMO.
On the second day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, Talent system that's still a failure. -- Beneficial, IMO.
On the third day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, world quests that are too easy. -- Everything gets easy when you overgear them. And there are hard WQs.
On the forth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, CRZ that makes resources hard to see -- CRZ don't make resources hard to see. Phasing does, and that's just a side-effect of a mostly beneficial feature.
On the fifth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, 4 raid difficulties. -- Beneficial, IMO.
On the sixth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, Pokemon Go. -- I'm starting to see a pattern, here: "I don't like it, therefore it's a failure". But, no, still beneficial.
On the seventh day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a built in store. -- The pattern continues. And no, it's not a failure. I'd say it's quite the success.
On the eighth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, epics as far as I can see. -- ... A "failure to catter to your "special snowflake-y-ness"?
On the ninth day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, instant nearly max level characters. -- Beneficial. Hands down. How can it possibly be a failure?
On the 10th day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, a single player game with a monthly fee. -- Hyperbolic nonsense. You're literally making up things to fill up this silly attempt at song.
On the 11th day of Blizzard failures, they brought onto me, 3 dungeon difficulties. -- Beneficial, hands down.
On the 12th day of Blizzard failures, they bought onto me, paid character transfers! -- Beneficial, hands down.

Another thing: you cite 11 items that you think are failures (discounting that one you literally made up to fill up 12 lines), yet you only (barely) explained your reasoning to call them failures on two of them, number three and number four, and number four is even wrong!

A lot of what Dark Souls does, was already in Vanilla. One difficulty and not many. Some classes were easier to level than others, like in Dark Souls where casters are easier than melee. Dark Souls doesn't care if someone runs around the game with a weapon far more powerful than most players, like back in Vanilla.

Yeah, because it's a single-player game. Not an MMO. The video you linked from EC speaks about how to handle difficulty in single-player games. What goes for a single-player game doesn't necessarily goes for a MMO.

Not talking about good features, talking about bad features like Heroic raids and LFR. Cata was the expansion to bring those concepts out and why I believe WoW started to decline.

"Good features" and "bad features" are woefully subjective, and you, alone, don't get to decide which is which. Not to mention that a great many vanilla supporters want none of the features that arrived post-vanilla. And again: if WoW remained the same, with the same mechanics, talents, classes and races from vanilla, expansion through expansion, I still defend the position that the game, today, would be either dead, or near death, what with so many more accessible games around, both in the MMO scene, in the multiplayer scene, and in the single-player scene.

[Traveler Voltin]

I've been looking around at the population of various different private servers and I'm blown away just how popular they are. Blizzard are really stupid not to cash in on this.

Would you pay $40-50(or whatever the European version is) dollars and a $15-20 sub fee after that?

[Edison]

Would you pay $40-50(or whatever the European version is) dollars and a $15-20 sub fee after that?

For vanilla? Hell yes

[Traveler Voltin]

For vanilla? Hell yes

Some may and some may not.
There has to be enough people willing to pay for classic servers make a profit for blizzard.
As of right now blizzard doesn't see a profit.

[Vineri]

Would you pay $40-50(or whatever the European version is) dollars and a $15-20 sub fee after that?

I'd drop $200 for a collectors edition, with a murloc pet code. Good enough?

Beyond that, what price can you put on account security. Give everyone a break with this narrative about how everyone wants everything free.

People want quality, and will pay.

[Deleted]

I think that this thread and the popularity of private realms proves that there is a demand not only for a legacy realm but for an oldschool MMO with decent graphics. Come to think of it - this is what vanilla warcraft is.

I gave legion another chance, it's still a pretty decent game but definitely not an MMO anymore. The quests in suramar are nice, the music is awesome, I had fun. But, at the same time, I played solo all the time. I went on a couple of heroics, didnt say a word besides "hello" and "bye".

I think that this is not nostalgia, at least not anymore. I would really like to pay for a game that is slow, punishing are at the same time rewarding for grouping up.

I still wont play on the realm that just opened. Its to risky to get to lvl 60 and then lose it all when new problems come up. I wonder how many people feel the same as me.

And no - not all the fixes were bad. I would give a lot for Vanilla but with support. If Blizzard does not want to revive Vanilla as it was (with bugs and everything) - they could make an oldschool project but with some changes making for example prot paladins worth a shot. If it leaves vanilla core game without changes - it would still be something people would want to see I think.

Anyways, I know that those are just my dream and wishes. I can only see one hope for us - but in a different game. I think that somewone will cater for "nostalgia" players and eventually release a game that will resemblance the oldschool MMORPG. Looking very much forward to it.

[Sturmbringe]

I think that this thread and the popularity of private realms proves that there is a demand not only for a legacy realm but for an oldschool MMO with decent graphics. Come to think of it - this is what vanilla warcraft is.

I gave legion another chance, it's still a pretty decent game but definitely not an MMO anymore. The quests in suramar are nice, the music is awesome, I had fun. But, at the same time, I played solo all the time. I went on a couple of heroics, didnt say a word besides "hello" and "bye".

I think that this is not nostalgia, at least not anymore. I would really like to pay for a game that is slow, punishing are at the same time rewarding for grouping up.

I still wont play on the realm that just opened. Its to risky to get to lvl 60 and then lose it all when new problems come up. I wonder how many people feel the same as me.

And no - not all the fixes were bad. I would give a lot for Vanilla but with support. If Blizzard does not want to revive Vanilla as it was (with bugs and everything) - they could make an oldschool project but with some changes making for example prot paladins worth a shot. If it leaves vanilla core game without changes - it would still be something people would want to see I think.

Anyways, I know that those are just my dream and wishes. I can only see one hope for us - but in a different game. I think that somewone will cater for "nostalgia" players and eventually release a game that will resemblance the oldschool MMORPG. Looking very much forward to it.

Yes, yes. Please, please play Retail. Please play retail and do NOT play on that WHICH SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

Legion is a great game. Please play it.

Yesterday we had 6000 people in queue and about 20000 people online.

For the love of God, play retail.

[Kyanion]

Sure would be nice if some mods would step in and clear up this thread from the past few pages. I mean bragging about pitiful numbers is one thing but it is really silly at this point.

[Deleted]

Yes, yes. Please, please play Retail. Please play retail and do NOT play on that WHICH SHALL NOT BE NAMED.

Legion is a great game. Please play it.

Yesterday we had 6000 people in queue and about 20000 people online.

For the love of God, play retail.

that is great and I support you with all my heart. I did log on and that is true, the game was unplayabe.

This proves that there is a demand for legacy. Hope Blizzard will see this one day.

[Shammyrock]

People playing a free version is not proof of a valid market.

I'm sure some people would pay, the probably bigger question is how many would still be in 2 years time.

[Eleccybubb]

that is great and I support you with all my heart. I did log on and that is true, the game was unplayabe.

This proves that there is a demand for legacy. Hope Blizzard will see this one day.

All you have proven is there is a free market that exists for it. You have no proof a paid one would do better. Which I imagine Blizzard would do because money.

- - - Updated - - -

People playing a free version is not proof of a valid market.

I'm sure some people would pay, the probably bigger question is how many would still be in 2 years time.

This as well. How many players could an official one keep? How many will leave once it starts to get stale which it naturally would?

[voidillusion]

You would do yourselves a huge favor if you'd stop ignoring what's obvious, there is a market for it, ppl are in the majority willing to pay for it, the recent examples on how quick the necessary amount for the server's upkeep was raised and ppl that actually payed for their "recovered" accounts are more than anedotic examples.

[Deleted]

All you have proven is there is a free market that exists for it. You have no proof a paid one would do better. Which I imagine Blizzard would do because money.

People playing a free version is not proof of a valid market.

There are quite a decent number of recent F2P MMO which cannot boast 15 k concurrent players on their server.

I'm sure some people would pay, the probably bigger question is how many would still be in 2 years time.

People still play chess century after, and people still play paperback RPG decades after their release. A good game design is good no matter how old the game is. Also nothing prevent blizzard to close the server in the unlikely event people no longer play (I think the demon souls PS3 servers are still running as of today, as an example).