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  1. #301
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volkanik View Post
    Yeah there is. We shouldn't be supporting the rebels in Syria, we should be backing Assad. Look what happened when we decided to "liberate" Iraq, and free them from Saddam. There was a power struggle, and thus ISIS was formed. Russia doesn't want a repeat of history. At least dictators as evil as they may be keep order over there. The idea of democracy is foreign to them.
    We shouldn't be backing -either-, or we should be backing both. Either way, aligning with Russia is not in US interests.

    Sorry if the Clinton News Network brainwashed you into thinking Russia are the "bad guys".
    Implying I watch CNN.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    It's going to be interesting as hell to watch Republicans deal with Trump the next few years
    They won't, they'll just blame the Democrats and Obama for Trump's problems.

  3. #303
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volkanik View Post
    Yeah there is. We shouldn't be supporting the rebels in Syria, we should be backing Assad. Look what happened when we decided to "liberate" Iraq, and free them from Saddam. There was a power struggle, and thus ISIS was formed. Russia doesn't want a repeat of history. At least dictators as evil as they may be keep order over there. The idea of democracy is foreign to them. Sorry if the Clinton News Network brainwashed you into thinking Russia are the "bad guys".
    Where exactly did Boston bombers come from? Keep telling your self it's just CNN...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lled_in_Russia
    Last edited by Felya; 2016-12-19 at 08:37 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I don't get this. The average American probably doesn't have much connection to those wars, much less likely to feel the real effects of a real war. It's more likely psychosomatic - that is, people keep saying "oh my god America is just so tired of being world police, everyone is tired of war" and that gives them the physical impression that they've actually been in a war.
    You don't have to get it. If you don't understand why after the past 15 years, you likely never will. There has been very little public support for more conflict, escalation of existing conflict, or venturing into new and exciting conflict. It doesn't take a "physical impression"(whateverthefuck) for people to be wary of military interaction.

    When given the opportunity to buy-in with a congressional approval of military intervention in Syria, Congress infamously said "no thanks, we don't actually want to participate in this process." Compare that to the sales job leading up to the Iraq war.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFuse View Post
    They won't, they'll just blame the Democrats and Obama for Trump's problems.
    They'll have to deal with him if his policies end up directly in conflict with their own. Russia is a prime example.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Where exactly did Boston bombers come from? Keep telling your self it's just CNN...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lled_in_Russia
    Sorry what am I supposed to be looking for on that page?
    "I have friends, many friends. I have friends in China, India, Russia." "I will make deals, lots of deals. I'm good at making deals. Deals, deals, deals."

  6. #306
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Implying I watch CNN.
    The whole idea that CNN is a bad source, when it comes to a country where opposition to Putin from the press results in a death warrant, is fucked up.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    You don't have to get it. If you don't understand why after the past 15 years, you likely never will. There has been very little public support for more conflict, escalation of existing conflict, or venturing into new and exciting conflict. It doesn't take a "physical impression"(whateverthefuck) for people to be wary of military interaction.

    When given the opportunity to buy-in with a congressional approval of military intervention in Syria, Congress infamously said "no thanks, we don't actually want to participate in this process." Compare that to the sales job leading up to the Iraq war.
    I just don't see how the war weariness comes about when the average american isn't in contact with war. It's psychosomatic and driven by masochistic ideologues.

  8. #308
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volkanik View Post
    Sorry what am I supposed to be looking for on that page?
    Try reading them. If your interest is not peeked by the the amount you can read in 2 min, check the date on Anna's murder date and Putin's birthday.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I just don't see how the war weariness comes about when the average american isn't in contact with war. It's psychosomatic and driven by masochistic ideologues.
    This is relevant:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/wo....20479953.html
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I just don't see how the war weariness comes about when the average american isn't in contact with war. It's psychosomatic and driven by masochistic ideologues.
    It may or may not be "psychosomatic", but drivien by masochistic ideologues? You're jumping the shark.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Where exactly did Boston bombers come from? Keep telling your self it's just CNN...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lled_in_Russia
    Boston bombers, you seriously going to bring them up? Because Russia gave FBI heads up on Tsarnaevs but they ignored it.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    It may or may not be "psychosomatic", but drivien by masochistic ideologues? You're jumping the shark.
    Not sure if jumping the shark is an apt term here. Masochistic in that they desire to be less powerful, less in command, more subservient. Ideologues in that they have no real physical, pragmatic connection to war and are in a fuss about what they read on the internet, filtered through the lens of anti-american ideology.

  12. #312
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Emperor View Post
    Boston bombers, you seriously going to bring them up? Because Russia gave FBI heads up on Tsarnaevs but they ignored it.
    Yes, seriously. Because if we are to pretend that Russia is fighting ISIS, it's a good idea to bring up what they did to Chechnya.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Not sure if jumping the shark is an apt term here. Masochistic in that they desire to be less powerful, less in command, more subservient. Ideologues in that they have no real physical, pragmatic connection to war and are in a fuss about what they read on the internet, filtered through the lens of anti-american ideology.
    Oh, I assumed you were saying it to draw attention to a rather nonsensical argument. You've clearly made up for that by...extrapolating exactly how nonsensical of an argument it was.

    Having an internal conflict about being at war isn't a negative thing. Not wanting the country you live in, it's government, its leaders etc, to not be involved in endless war, whether you have a "physical impression" of it or not, is not a masochistic position to hold. Nor is it anti-American. Your whole argument is just...weird.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    ????

    He stated on public record that he acknowledges human's impact of the climate. He was/is in support of the carbon tax that many conservative are opposed to. He may be the CEO of the company that takes part in our effect of the environment, but the Exxon simply supplies the oil and gas while everyone else uses it. Tillerson is by no means a denier. If anything, he is a realist when it comes to environmental impact.

    This is not to mean that Exxon as a company put forth maximum effort to fighting climate change, some on the board still questioned the science behind global warming.
    Wanna know what's the problem about carbon taxes? If they aren't high enough it will help the biggest industry reduce competition.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Your whole argument is just...weird.
    Not really. War weariness is generally felt when a country has been at war too long or too intensely. The average American just hasn't had the kind of contact with war that generally elicits war fatigue/weariness. Their leaders are doing all sorts of bad things - guess what? Knowing or not knowing it only changes their emotional state, it doesn't entrench them in the front lines. People like you have an interest in collapsing this distinction because it appeals to your desire to give up power. If you don't get this you might need to rethink your notion of war fatigue.

    Your perspective is quite silly because you would still be clamoring about war fatigue if all that was involved was a chess match between two robots.

  16. #316
    So much for draining the swamp? The way he appoints the swamp will soon be a vile lake...

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Not really. War weariness is generally felt when a country has been at war too long or too intensely. The average American just hasn't had the kind of contact with war that generally elicits war fatigue/weariness. Their leaders are doing all sorts of bad things - guess what? Knowing or not knowing it only changes their emotional state, it doesn't entrench them in the front lines. People like you have an interest in collapsing this distinction because it appeals to your desire to give up power. If you don't get this you might need to rethink your notion of war fatigue.

    Your perspective is quite silly because you would still be clamoring about war fatigue if all that was involved was a chess match between two robots.
    Or you, know, if I had multiple friends who were involved in repeated tours of duty, but whatever. So, it need not be direct contact, but as you said in your initial reply; you don't understand. It's not like you desire an actual understanding either, which makes this debate with you rather pointless. As evidenced by your claim of masochism because "anti war". Or, that war=power. You can also keep trying to attribute these traits to me specifically in an attempt to sell your argument, but it isn't all that compelling. You have no idea what "people like me" have an interest in, because you aren't objective enough to actually understand "people like me".

    You seem to have this belief that war fatigue can only been a physical thing. The emotional and mental aspect of endless war, the results on the nation as a whole, it's defense, treasury, resources etc, is something people tend to have an interest in. So, my perspective isn't so much silly as it is alien to you, because you are incapable of thinking beyond a "physical impression".

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC17 View Post
    Russia's support for Assad has nothing to do with historical context, interest, or morals.
    Actually it has everything to do with it... historical context of being allies with Syria, gas pipeline interests, and moral responsibility of preventing another failed state.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yes, seriously. Because if we are to pretend that Russia is fighting ISIS, it's a good idea to bring up what they did to Chechnya.
    Rebuilt it after destroying it? With many Chechen terrorists fleeing to their handlers in US?

  19. #319
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Not to mention productivity gains that stopped going to workers in the early 80s - not coincidentally around the time that Reagan's union-busting tactics came into the picture.
    Yeah, I understand why some people think the way they do, that all of these modern luxuries and advantages they've gained don't need to be protected after they've been won. They think that they'll have them no matter what once they've been won. They don't realize that these hard won things need protecting, they just assume they'll always have them. They seem to have this misplaced faith that businesses won't fuck them out of things given the chance.
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  20. #320
    Herald of the Titans Berengil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    We're about to get an excellent lesson in the importance of institutions in Democracies in any event. Institutions stabilize, and while some may be deeply disturbed the US Navy doesn't throw itself at whatever crazy scheme an elected official concocts, I think rather there is immense wisdom and benefits in a second layer of stabilization through institutions. It'll reduce the chance of miscalculation.
    But, as we've gone back and forth on before Skroe, aren't the military forces of the US supposed to be absolutely subordinate to the elected civilian authorities?

    Isn't that idea a bedrock principle of our republic?
    " The guilt of an unnecessary war is terrible." --- President John Adams
    " America goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy." --- President John Quincy Adams
    " Our Federal Union! It must be preserved!" --- President Andrew Jackson

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